Lords Sitting of 15 May 1835

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of ROSEBERY, from various Dissenting Congregations (Scotland) against any Grant to the Scotch Churches.—By the Duke of ARGYLE, the Duke of GORDON, the Earl of STIRLING, the Marquess of LANSDOWNE, the Earl of ROSSLYN, the Duke of BUCCLEUGH, and the Marquess of BUTE, from various Places in Scotland, in favour of a Grant.

THE AGRICULTURAL INTEREST— COUNTY RATES.
The Duke of Richmondpresented a Petition from the owners and occupiers of land in Staffordshire, praying for relief. The petitioners noticed the promise that was put forth in the Speech from the Throne at the beginning of the present Session, that something should be done in favour of the landed interest, and more particularly with reference to the burden of county-rates. The petitioners complained that the burdens of building and repairing bridges and gaols, of public prosecution of felons, and of furnishing information on returns to both Houses of Parliament, fell upon the county rates, which were levied entirely upon the land. He wished to ask the noble Viscount now at the head of the Government, whether it was the intention of the Government to propose to Parliament any measure on the subject, or to take into consideration the grievances of which the petitioners complained. He agreed with the petitioners in all they stated, except in the recommendation that the Magistrates should not have the power of ordering payments out of the county-rates, but that that power should be given to persons elected by the rate-payers. In his opinion, the Magistrates ought still to possess the power now vested in them. He thought that as things now stood, the amount of the county-rates was a great grievance, and he hoped that some measure would be adopted more fairly to meet some of the expenses now charged upon them.
Viscount Melbournesaid, that it was the intention of the Government to take into consideration the best means of carrying into effect that part of the recommendation from the Throne alluded to by the noble Duke, provided that that recommendation, the words of which, as they stood, were extremely large, and comprised much more than the noble Duke had stated, was understood to be confined to
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those recommendations which had emanated from the Committees of this and the other House of Parliament. He should not enumerate all the matters referred to; the principal among them were prosecutions at the assizes, expenses of convicts, and Returns furnished to both Houses of Parliament on subjects on which they required information. These matters would receive the consideration of the Government, and the recommendations regarding them should be carried into effect provided that the means could be found for limiting what were now unlimited and undefined charges, and putting a check upon unnecessary and profuse expenditure.

IRELAND—PROCESSIONS.
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, that after the declaration which the noble Viscount had made on taking his seat as Minister of the Crown, he had felt that it was his duty to abstain from making any remarks on the noble Viscount's conduct, till he saw precisely on what principles the noble Viscount meant to carry on the Government. But circumstances had lately occurred in Ireland which made him feel that it would be a dereliction of his duty if he were to suffer them to pass over without notice. He referred to the manner in which the noble Earl recently appointed Lord-lieutenant of Ireland had made his entry into Dublin. He wished not to be understood as disapproving of demonstrations of regard on the entry of a favoured Lord-lieutenant into that city, he should be the last man in the world who could disapprove of the expression of regret that had been shown by the Irish people at the departure of his noble Friend near him (the Earl of Haddington), and, therefore, he could not but approve of that demonstration of feeling; and as he knew how well merited it was, he should not be justified in disapproving of another demonstration of a different kind upon the arrival of the noble Earl who had recently been appointed. But if the reports he had heard were true, the demonstrations made on the arrival of the noble Earl were of a totally different kind from those made on the departure of his noble Friend. He was informed that the cortege which took place, on the occasion of the noble Earl's entry was the organized arrangement of an individual of great power in the country. The men in the procession were marshalled by appointed leaders—they assembled in

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great numbers in consequence of orders issued in the chapels of the neighbourhood that they should assemble and take part in the procession. Under these circumstances, it seemed to him that the procession was in direct violation of the laws of the country. It was not only in violation of the common law, but of that law which was introduced two years ago, when the noble Viscount was Secretary of State for the Home Department. He alluded to the Bill which was to be continued for five years, and which declared to be illegal all bodies of men assembled with symbols and banners. If the reports he had heard were true, the noble Earl had permitted that to be done which rendered him incapable of holding the sword of justice in that country, for what he had done was prohibited by law; and how could he punish that in others which he had permitted himself, and in permitting which he had committed so direct a violation of the law? These circumstances must have a tendency to discourage the loyal and well-affected in that country, and they could not but be confirmed in their apprehensions when they saw the Lord-lieutenant thus lend himself to the party which was most dangerous in that kingdom, and which had often been denounced not only in Parliament, but even in speeches from the Throne. Coupling that circumstance with another of which he had heard, he must express his fears for the tranquillity of Ireland when he heard that the Solicitor-General of Ireland had sanctioned a toast at a public meeting to the speedy repeal of the Union. Coupling that circumstance with the fact that, at the entry of the new Lord-lieutenant, the banners bore the inscription "Repeal of the Union," "No Tithes," "O'Connell for ever," and sentences of that kind, he thought the commencement of the new Government was of a most inauspicious and even alarming character. He hoped that the declaration of the noble Earl would have the effect of settling the minds of the people, and that if such circumstances should be proved to have occurred, at least he would declare they had not his acquiescence. He asked the noble Viscount first, whether he had received such information that the noble Earl had made his entry into Dublin in the manner described; and secondly, if so, what steps had been taken to announce the displeasure of the noble Viscount at this course.
Viscount Melbournesaid, that it was quite unnecessary for the noble Earl to disavow any intentions of a personal nature towards himself, for he had never seen anything in the noble Earl but fair political hostility. He had understood that on the occasion of his noble Friend's entry into Dublin there was a great concourse of people, and that there was, too, a very enthusiastic demonstration of popular feeling; but circumstances, such as those stated by the noble Earl opposite, he had not till this moment heard. He was not aware that there had been any illegal assemblage, nor any banners nor ensigns which were prohibited by Act of Parliament; but he had no doubt that if the law had been violated, it could and would be asserted by the ordinary means. With respect to the measures said to have been adopted to procure an attendance—with respect to the orders supposed to have been given to assemble, and the marshalling of the men in the procession, he could only say that he believed that processions of this kind were never purely spontaneous—never entirely unarranged; and he might venture to say that the assemblage which had accompanied the departure of the noble Earl opposite, did not occur without previous notice, nor without settled arrangements among those who were anxious to make that display of their political feelings. It was not in the nature of things that it should be so; no procession could be entirely spontaneous—none was purely the out bursting of the feelings of the moment, but was produced by previous settlement among the parties. If anything of an illegal nature had taken place—if any violation of the law had occurred—if anything had happened which called for strong animadversion and censure, and if this was intimated to his noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant, he was sure that his noble Friend was so entirely aware of the intentions of the Government at home, and so entirely possessed of a spirit of impartiality—was so determined to conduct his Government upon the principles of even and equal justice, and so resolved not to place himself in the hands of any party or faction whatever, but to administer the law equally to all, that he would be the very first to put the law into effect against those who had violated it even on the occasion referred to. There were some other matters to which the noble Earl opposite had referred, with

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which he was not in the least acquainted, and to which, therefore, he should not allude; but he took that opportunity of declaring, that the principle of the Government here and in Ireland, was, that those who violated the law, be they who they might, should be made to answer for that violation.
The Marquess of Londonderrywas not surprised to hear the panegyric bestowed by the noble Viscount upon the noble Earl the Lord-lieutenant, but after a time they should be able to know how much it was deserved. His noble Friend near him had been right in putting the question, not with respect to the noble Earl the Lord-lieutenant, but in order to know whether these orders for the people to assemble, were issued by the protector of the Government—Mr. O'Connell; and if so, whether such orders were issued under the sanction of the Lord-lieutenant. It did appear that some correspondence had been carried on by Captain Phipps on the part of the noble Earl, which was alluded to in the papers. The banners were marked with "O'Connell, the rising Sun." "Dan's Lieutenant." "Repeal." This was stated to be the fact in various letters, and if the noble Viscount had not heard of these things before, he was the last man in the country who had not heard of them. He therefore called on the noble Viscount, as the first Minister of the Crown, to investigate the truth of these circumstances. He called on the noble Viscount the more from a letter he had received from a very influential person, who stated to him what must be the inevitable consequences of such an entry. The letter said "The Earl of Mulgrave's entry was a tremendous display of O'Connell force, and the sanction given to the party to display these colours will be considered a reason for the loyal Protestants not being meddled with in their display on the 12th of July next, when I fear some tremendous conflict will take place if they are interrupted. In consequence of this procession with the banners and the green flags, it will be impossible to prevent the Orangemen from taking their course." The Lord-lieutenant had, in fact, sanctioned these things, and unless he expressed his disapprobation of them, he might be well assured that the Orangemen of Ireland would not be tranquil, and that a tremendous collision would take place that would endanger the property of Ireland, and
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that the 12th of July would not pass over without the most serious consequences. He did not say this from any personal feeling. The time would come when he should state his opinion of what Ireland had to fear from the Government of the noble Lord. The inevitable consequence would be, that if some marked notice was not taken of this matter, there would be a procession on the 12th of July. He warned the noble Viscount of the matter. The noble Viscount could not have any feelings of enmity towards him because he brought these circumstances forward—for he must know that a noble person high in the confidence of his Majesty and in that, of the Government, (the Marquess of Wellesley, Lord Chamberlain)had just resigned office because he felt that the influence of Mr. O'Connell was so great in the Government, that with his opinions he could not properly continue in office. If the noble Viscount's personal friends were thus alarmed, could he wonder that his political enemies were frightened? People who had property in Ireland must and would stand forth on such occasions and let him know their opinions in time to prevent these unhappy consequences.
Viscount Melbournesaid, that with respect to the circumstances alluded to by the noble Marquess opposite, there could be nothing more unfortunate, if the statement of those circumstances was true, and if it was, he admitted that the consequences predicted in the letter were likely to follow. But he must at the same time ask whether the sort of procession referred to could have been prevented? Could the noble Earl opposite have prevented, if he had wished, the display which accompanied his departure from Ireland, even when he was Lord-lieutenant, and in the country itself? how, then, could the noble Earl, now the Lord-lieutenant, prevent that which was no doubt prepared while he yet remained in England? If there had been display on one side, so there had on the other. He was perfectly aware of the consequences that might follow an exhibition of the sort described; but he knew no means by which his noble Friend could have prevented it. He had said that if there was anything illegal, it should be inquired into; but it was not, unfortunately, in the power of the Government here, or on the other side of the water, to prevent these displays of feeling on the entry of a Lord-lieutenant, whom

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the Irish people welcomed with satisfaction to their shores. No man more deeply regretted than he did, the strong party distinction still existing in that country—the strong line of demarcation there drawn between men of opposite political sentiments; there was no man more truly anxious to adopt measures which could, even by possibility, have the effect of rendering; that country tranquil; but it was impossible to do that with the aid of one party alone. If both could be prevailed on to assist in this good work, something might be done; but he feared that that was hardly to be expected, from the weakness of human nature. The noble Marquess had adverted to the Chamberlain of the Household, and had said, that that noble Marquess had resigned his situation on account of differences with the Government on the subject of Ireland. He assured their Lordships that the statement was wholly erroneous. He had the authority of the noble Marquess himself for stating most distinctly, that any report to that effect was entirely without foundation. It was not upon the grounds stated that the noble Marquess had resigned his office; and, with respect to the management of Ireland in general, the noble Marquess agreed with the views of the Government which was dismissed in November, and with the views of the present Government.
The Earl of Haddingtoncould assure the noble Viscount and their Lordships, that it had not been his intention to address them on this subject; but as the noble Viscount had appealed to him, and had twice adverted to that assemblage to which he was honoured on quitting Ireland, and had done it as if he meant to compare it with what had recently occurred he must be allowed to say a word or two on the matter. What he wished to state was simply this—that on that occasion there was neither banner nor colour, nor any outward appearance of party manifested that met his eye, nor anything that could be so considered. As to the procession itself, it was most undoubtedly as spontaneous and unsolicited as it could be; but, at the same time, he must be allowed to say, that if he had given any warning that he did not like it, or did not wish for it, or that he thought it would produce any bad consequence, he believed that it would have been given up. But he had not done that because there
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was no reason why he should. It would have been ungracious in him to say anything of the kind. He did not mean to say that the noble Earl, now the Lord-lieutenant, could have prevented the recent procession; but he was certain that he could have prevented that which took place with regard to himself; but he saw no reason for doing it, and it would have been an ungracious return for the great kindness which he was far from being vain enough to think that he deserved.
The Marquess of Londonderrysaid, that with regard to the report about the Lord Chamberlain, a person had told it to him who had it from the noble Marquess himself.
Viscount Melbournebelieved that the noble Marquess overrated the value of his information.
Lord Broughamsaid, that in opposition to the second-hand report of the noble Marquess, there were to be placed two personal communications with the noble Marquess, showing that it was wholly incorrect. He happened to be a witness who could give evidence which would place the matter of the cause of the retirement beyond the possibility of a doubt; for the intention of the noble Marquess to resign, and the grounds of the intended resignation, were known to him long before the account of what took place in Ireland reached this country. He knew of the intention and the reasons for it, early last Saturday, and it was taken, he was going to say, on grounds diametrically opposite; but he might say, completely different, and wholly standing apart from those supposed. He had not seen the noble Marquess since, and it was possible that in the mean time the noble Marquess might have said something which had occasioned the mistake.
The Marquess of Londonderryhad asked the question of one of his Majesty's confidential servants, and he should have been more assured had the answer come from one of them.
Lord Broughamremarked, that the position taken up by the noble Marquess was most extraordinary. According to that whatever report a man might hear of Lord Wellesley was to be believed, though Lord Wellesley had fifty witnesses to disprove it, unless it should happen that one of the twelve King's Ministers should also happen to know that the statement was unfounded. Really no other man would be placed in

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so unfortunate a situation as that in which such a rule would place the noble Marquess.

TAXES ON KNOWLEDGE.
Lord Broughampresented a Petition from the Common Council of the City of London on the subject of the Abolition of the Taxes on knowledge. The Common Council had not the privilege with respect to this House which they possessed with regard to the Commons House of Parliament, of presenting their petition at the bar of the House, but it must be presented by a member of their Lordships' House. In order, however, to give due effect to their petition, they came down to the humble individual who then addressed their Lordships in the dignity of their office, and gave him the petition, desiring him respectfully to request for it their Lordships' most careful attention. The petition was not confined to the abolition of newspaper stamps, but to the taxes upon paper and books, and to what they represented to be taxes upon knowledge of all descriptions, political, civil, and scientific. They objected to a tax of 200 per cent, on the raw material, which they said must have the effect of preventing the dissemination of knowledge, and keeping instruction from the various classes of the people, when it was most important to the cause of good Government that that instruction should be furnished to all classes of the community. The stability and value of our institutions depended in a great measure on the instruction thus kept back from a large portion of the people. In the first place, with respect to newspapers, the effect, of the stamp was to give to ribaldry, to sedition, and to blasphemy, a monopoly of sale: for papers thus badly distinguished were published at one penny, while the more respectable papers were published at a higher price. The trials and executions of criminals were as nothing for the instruction of the people compared in extensive effect to the statement of them in the newspapers, which spread the knowledge of them all over the country. The papers, however, which gave this information were burdened with a duty of 200 per cent., while those which had no such recommendation, but were filled with bad matter, and even recommended assassination, paid no stamp at all. By this system, therefore, the mischievous publications enjoyed a monopoly of the market, while the in-
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nocent publications were taxed 200 per cent. Incalculable injury was thus inflicted on good government, on good institutions, and on the good administration of the law. In this point, therefore, he perfectly agreed with the petitioners; and he agreed with them also in their objections to the monopoly of newspapers. In London especially, a few newspapers enjoyed a monopoly of the market. Were it not for the stamp duty, those newspapers would have competitors and rivals, whereas at present they had the monopoly of communicating intelligence and political discussion to the people. He would state to their Lordships a fact, however, to show that the evil of this monopoly was not confined to London. He had seen it stated in a provincial newspaper, that he (Lord Brougham) had, at a public meet-taken a most mischievous and improper liberty with their Lordships. He was charged with having pronounced a most exaggerated and fulsome panegyric on their Lordships. This was charged upon him in the newspaper in question as a great offence. Perhaps their Lordships might think that it admitted of some extenuation. At any rate it was on his part a rarity. Being his first offence of the kind, he trusted that their Lordships would at least mitigate his punishment. It was asked by the newspaper in question—"Was there ever anything so abominably inconsistent as this man's praising the House of Lords?" The terms of praise ascribed to him were to the following effect:—"I defy the history of all nations and of all ages to produce an example of an assembly so august, so eminent for talents and learning, so renowned for its great public services, so truly a representative of the interests and feelings of the people, so faithful a guardian of popular rights, so distinguished by valuable qualities of every description, as the present House of Lords." Now of all this, as it respected their Lordships, he had not said one word.—He had said, what some might consider worse than either panegyric or vituperation—he had said nothing whatever about their Lordships. Having spoken of the House of Commons, the newspaper in question attacked him by ascribing to him a fulsome panegyric on their Lordships, which he should never have dreamt of uttering, belonging as he himself did to the House of Lords. But not belonging to the House of Com-

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mons, he had certainly panegyrized that House, although not in terms so strong as those imputed to him. The use of the word "present" clearly proved that "the House of Lords" was an interpolation on the part of the newspaper; for that word would be an absurd one to use towards their Lordships, although it would be just as applied to the House of Commons. When he had read this unfounded statement, he asked a friend, who knew the town in which the newspaper was published, how it was possible that such a paper could go on. The answer was, that it was the only newspaper in the town—that three or four attempts had been made to establish a competition; but that all those attempts had been stifled by the newspaper stamp. It was always so in cases of monopoly; those by whom that monopoly was possessed did that which they would not dare to do if they had rivals in the field. He cordially concurred, therefore, in that part of the petition which related to newspaper stamps. The petitioners also prayed for the remission of the duty on paper and on foreign books. With respect to the first, it unquestionably operated with great severity on what were known by the name of cheap publications. He could state on his own personal knowledge, that some of the most useful publications of that kind in the present day were in danger of being given up, because the tax upon paper just made the difference between their being able, and their not being able, to go on. The publications emanating from the Society for the Propagation of Christian Knowledge, and other publications in imitation of them, were in that predicament. They could now go on with difficulty, but they could go on with ease if only half the duty on paper were taken off. He was persuaded that if that were done, the revenue would gain more than it would lose by the remission; just as it would by taking off the stamps on newspapers. As to the prayer of the petitioners for taking off the duty on foreign books, their Lordships would, probably, not be disposed to agree to that to its full extent, as it would deprive the home trade of the protection which ought to be afforded to it. At the same time, to continue a tax on such foreign books as could not, by possibility, be printed in this country, was certainly one of the most barbarous regulations conceivable. He
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had himself that morning paid a duty of 25 l. on the importation of foreign books. When he was last in Paris, he had purchased a complete series of "The Memoirs of the French Academy" at different eras, comprehending between two and three hundred volumes—a work not to be found in any of our public libraries. In addition to the purchase-money, he had that morning paid five-and-twenty pounds duty on the importation of those volumes. Now, what protection could such a duty as that be to the home-trade? Could it be supposed that an English publisher would print two hundred and fifty-two volumes of "The Memoirs of the French Academy?" The real evil was in the introduction of French editions of such works as those of Lord Byron or Sir Walter Scott. The duty, however, was almost inoperative in preventing the surreptitious introduction of such works. Thus the bad and injurious publications succeeded in finding their way into this country; the good ones were stopped. The large publications, which had no competitors in this country, were prevented from coming; the small publications came over, and entered into competition with the legitimate works. Without going at greater length into the subject, he begged leave to present the petition.
Petition to lie on the Table.