Lords Sitting of 10 March 1835

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Chester Criminals Execution Bill; Equity Commitments for Contempt (Ireland); Property of Infants and Lunatics (Ireland).
Petitions presented. By the Earl of ROSSLYN, from Students at Edinburgh, for improving Medical Education; and by Lord WHARNCLIFFE, from Glenspiel, for Extending Church Accommodation in Scotland.

NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND).
The Earl of Rodensaid, that when he gave notice of his intention to bring under the consideration of that House the system of National Education now pursued in Ireland, he was anxious that their Lordships should be acquainted with the workings of that system. Therefore, it was that he wished certain documents to be laid upon their Lordships' Table, to which he understood there was no objection on the part of the Government of Ireland; so that when their Lordships came to the debate upon the subject, they might be acquainted with all the facts of the case. He was not going to enter upon the subject at that time. He was afraid that he had too often troubled their Lordships upon it; but he must mention as his excuse, that he viewed it as a question involving a great and important interest; and, therefore, he felt it was due to their Lordships—he felt that it was due to himself, who had loaded their Lordships' Table with petitions on this subject—to bring the question before the House the moment an opportunity for doing so occurred. The noble Earl moved for "various returns relative to the establishment of schools under the new system (Ireland)."
The Marquess of Lansdowneobserved, that in consequence of the noble Earl abstaining from making any remarks on the subject, he should not enter into the discussion of it, but he could not avoid saying, that knowing what was ascribed to those who had recommended the present system of Education in Ireland, he was just as desirous as the noble Earl himself, that the whole effects of that measure

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should be thoroughly investigated. That system had been grossly misrepresented and misunderstood; and he should be fully prepared, at any time, to go into a discussion upon it. If there was any thing to regret in the way in which the noble Earl had now treated the matter, it was that there was such a number of documents moved for as must inevitably occasion some delay in bringing on the question. He hoped, that the noble Earl would take the earliest opportunity of bringing the subject before their Lordships; for he should be glad that the attention of the House and the country should be at once called to the very beneficial effects produced by the present system.
The Earl of Rodenhad hoped that the way in which he had introduced this Motion would have induced the noble Marquess to abstain from expressing any strong opinion in favour of the present system. His own opinion was quite different, but he thought it would be better to wait for a more convenient time, when the papers were on the Table of the House, and it could be seen which opinion was the correct one. But for the great inconvenience of going into the matter now, he could have proved that the measure of National Education in Ireland had not been successful.
The Motion was agreed to.

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.
The Marquess of Camdenpresented a Petition from agriculturists of Northbourne, in the county of Kent, asking for some relief to their distresses.
Lord Broughamsaid, that in the course of a few days he should have to present to their Lordships some petitions of a similar nature. The petitioners were anxious for the Repeal of the Malt-tax, and they wished him to support the prayer of their petition. Now, he certainly entertained a sincere respect for the petitioners; but with every respect for their opinion, he differed from them in their views on this subject, and he should do all that lay in his power to prevent so ruinous and absurd a measure from being carried into effect. He did not know that any measure could be adopted less likely to benefit the farmer or the consumer, whatever its effect might be on the maltster and the brewer. The question was, whether between 4,000,000 l. and 5,000,000 l. a-year was to be deducted from the public revenue
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under the pretence of giving relief to the farmer. He must deprecate any such proceeding. He knew that all this revenue was wanted for the public service; and how could the public service be reduced so as to meet such a deficit: It then came to this—whether 5,000,000 l. was to be raised upon malt, or to be raised upon income? Now, it certainly would take him a long time to consider before he consented to give up the Malt-tax for a Property-tax. Such an alteration would do much harm to the cider counties; and, in fact, light soils, where barley was grown, would be the only soils that could benefit by it, and that, too, in a very trifling degree.
Lord Teynhamwas sorry for the opinion thus expressed by the noble and learned Lord. The Malt-tax had put an end to the good system of men drinking beer brewed at home. There were now twenty beer-shops where there had been but one before. The agriculturists were highly taxed, while there where thirty millions of funded property untaxed. The loss of the five millions might be supplied by other taxes.

RUSSIA AND AUSTRIA.
Lord Broughamsaid, that seeing the noble Duke in his place, he wished to put to him a question on a matter well deserving of his most serious consideration; he meant the present state of our foreign relations. Two most important events had recently occurred:—the first was the decease of the Emperor of Austria; the second, the removal of a fleet of six or eight sail of the line from Malta to the Dardanelles. From these two events, but more especially from the latter, a presumption had arisen that the state of affairs had become rather critical—that especially it was so in the Dardanelles, and this had arisen from some misunderstanding, with the Court of St. Petersburgh. It was doubly important, therefore, that at this moment Great Britain should be represented there, as, indeed, Great Britain ought always to be represented, by some person well fitted for the discharge of most important duties—some person of extended experience, of great talents, of tried discrimination. There had been for some time a vacancy in the appointment, and it was expedient that some measure should be taken to fill it up. He did not complain of the delay that had taken place, but he thought that it ought

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not to continue much longer. With regard to the change of the Sovereign in Austria he could not avoid expressing his hope that his Majesty's Government would seize upon the opportunity offered by the change of the reigning sovereign there, and enforce what he knew their predecessors had tried to enforce, the humane, and in his conscience, he believed, the sound, prudent, and politic course as regarded the individual interest of the Austrian Government imposed upon the Government of his Imperial Majesty, to mitigate the rigours, if not to terminate the sufferings, that for the whole of the last seventeen years had been inflicted upon some of the ablest, most accomplished, virtuous, and enlightened individuals, the ornaments of the nobility of a part of his Imperial Majesty's empire. He repeated, that prudence and policy at once dictated the termination of the imprisonment of these unhappy individuals. He hoped that an occasion would be taken of forcing this subject on the attention of the Austrian Government in a manner that became the character, the policy, and the wisdom of this country, for he was convinced, that it was the most true and the best means of removing one of the greatest dangers that beset the Imperial Government in the most critical part of the Austrian dominions. He trusted that an act of grace would terminate the sufferings of these illustrious men. He should say no more, for he wished to speak kindly and respectfully of the Austrian Government, from whose good will and good sense he looked for the success of the measure he was now suggesting.
The Duke of Wellingtonwas convinced that the noble and learned Lord did not expect him to answer the question that had been put. This was only the first day after the notice of the death of his Imperial Majesty, and it was impossible therefore, that he could come down to the House and say on what subject his Majesty's Government might think it necessary to enter into negotiations with that of Austria. The noble and learned Lord had spoken about the moving of the fleet, and presumed, from its removal from Malta to the Dardanelles, that there must be some grave matter of discussion between this country and the court of St. Petersburgh. He begged leave distinctly to say that such was not the case—he had no reason to believe that there was any
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such, or that any such might arise. Further, he should state that a noble Lord had been placed in the situation of his Majesty's Ambassador at the court of St. Petersburgh, and that he would go thither whenever the season permitted him to travel.
Lord Broughamhad not gone on the presumption mentioned by the noble Duke; he had only referred to suspicions and rumours; he was informed that there was a continuance of amicable, and, indeed, friendly and cordial relations between the two courts, but it was impossible not to be alarmed at the bare supposition of the negative of all this. He had not put a question on the other subject, but had merely made a suggestion that he hoped might lead to a renewal of the endeavours to produce a just, humane, and prudent policy.