Lords Sitting of 2 March 1835

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of ROSSLYN, from Inhabitants of Dundee, for an Increase of Places of
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Public Worship.—By the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, from Stirling, in favour of the Established Church of Scotland.

PARLIAMENTARY RETURNS.
The Duke of Richmondpresented a petition from the clerk of the peace for the county of Sussex, complaining, and as he thought very justly, of the expenses which were sometimes occasioned by making returns to this and the other House of Parliament. He wished to call the particular attention of his noble Friend the Lord Privy Seal, whom he saw in his place, to this subject. The expense of certain returns which the clerk of the peace had been compelled to make, amounted to above 70 l., and when that sum was charged in the items of the accounts of the clerk of the peace, the Magistrates at Sessions had decided that they had nothing to do with the matter, so as to be able to burthen the county-rates with the expense thereby incurred; and they had therefore refused to allow that item in the accounts. He thought that the Magistrates were right in their decision. At the same time, he was of opinion that it was very hard, and indeed unjust, to throw the expense of these returns on the clerk of the peace. He did not like to say, that the expense ought to be thrown on the persons who moved for the returns, for many of them might be of great public importance; but as the benefit was to the public, he thought that the public ought to pay for them. He moved, that the petition should be laid on the Table, and he hoped that some means would be adopted to prevent this expense from falling in future on the county-rates.

VOTE BY PROXY—OATHS.
The Marquess of Westminstersaid, that he had a few observations to make upon some subjects of importance. It was in their Lordships' recollection, that at the end of the last Session of Parliament he had given notice of his intention to introduce a Bill on the subject of voting by Proxy. It was his intention to have done so; but under the peculiar, the extraordinary, and unexpected circumstances in which they were now placed, he thought he should have a better chance of success if he deferred bringing forward this Motion on the present occasion. There was another question, too, that of the relief to the Jews, in which he felt a warm interest. It had been his wish to bring that question forward in this Session; but the same

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circumstances which he had before referred to would induce him to postpone it. However, he wished to add, that he was quite in their hands, and that if they desired it, he should at once be ready to submit the question to the consideration of Parliament. He would do exactly as the Jews themselves thought best. Another question was as to pluralities and non-residence, and another as to corrupt voting at elections. With respect to this last, he must say, that he believed that there would be no means of cutting that up but by the Bailot. That subject had been much discussed in the other House of Parliament, and some strong opinions had been expressed upon it. He thought that he should introduce this subject to their Lordships' notice; but in whatever he did he should shape his course according to the fate of the Motion in the other House of Parliament. There was one question more to which he wished to refer. On this question he addressed their Lordships, in the belief that they were all, as he believed all had declared themselves to be, the enemies of all recognized abuses—that was the question of putting an end to unnecessary Oaths. He fully agreed with the noble Duke who had employed himself in preparing a measure on this subject; but he advised that noble Duke to consider the way in which the Committee he had appointed had been framed, and he recommended the noble Duke to withdraw from that Committee the names of the bishops whom he had put upon it; for, in his estimation, it was better that the Bishops, like the clergy in general, should be relieved from the political cares that were now cast upon them. The more they were withdrawn from politics, the better would they be able to discharge their important spiritual duties.
The Duke of Richmondhad taken upon himself the responsibility of having named six Bishops on the Committee, which, on his Motion, had been appointed to consider the subject of Oaths. He had named the same Committee last Session; and those who had attended that Committee knew how much assistance had been derived from the presence of the right reverend Prelates. The noble Marquess appeared to fear that the number of Bishops on the Committee was too great—there were six Bishops, and twenty-four lay
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Peers. The noble Marquess said, that the Bishops and the clergy should attend to the religious duties of the country. He thought so too, and that was the very reason why, in preparing to bring in this Bill upon Oaths, the frequency of which, in his opinion, diminished their solemnity, he had, conceiving it a question closely connected with the religion of the country, proposed some of the right reverend Prelates as Members of the Committee. He should not now discuss with the noble Marquess the general question whether Bishops were to have seats in that House, but this he would say, that if by being called a Reformer was meant a willingness to turn the Bishops out of that House, he was not one of those who could agree to that proposition. They had often been of great service to their Lordships, and in no case was there a stronger example of it than in this. The noble Marquess had requested him to withdraw the names of the Bishops from the Committee. With all respect for the noble Marquess, he must decline doing so.
Conversation dropped.