Lords Sitting of 29 June 1835

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of ROSSE, from the Members of the Irish Bar, for the Repeal of the 3rd Section of an Act of last Session, for Facilitating the Loan of Money upon Landed Securities.—By the Duke of CUMBERLAND and the Marquess of CAMDEN, from a Dissenting Congregation in London, and from Bath,—for Protection to the Church of England.—By the Earl of ABERDEEN, from Liverpool, against any Alteration in the Timber Duties.—By Lord BROUGHAM, from Cork, for the Repeal of the Stamp Duties on Newspapers.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL.
Lord Broughamsaid, that he had a Petition, not praying in general terms for a measure upon Municipal Corporations, but asking their Lordships to pass the particular measure which was now under the consideration of the other House of Parliament. As a petition on the subject of a Bill not yet in the House was irregular, he should not present it, and he mentioned the circumstance to excuse himself with the petitioners for not doing so. With respect to the Bill itself, to which the petitioners alluded, he must take that opportunity of saying, that he saw two decided deficiencies in it, and without which he could not give it the support he desired. In the first place, he did not see sufficient provision to prevent the abuse of Trust Funds left for charitable purposes; and in the next, he saw no sufficient reason to exclude from the advantages of municipal freedom those who had earned a right to
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it by apprenticeship—men who had not obtained it by birth, but whose title to it was founded on the employment of seven years of their lives in making themselves masters of some useful art or trade, and who had obtained a seven years' character for industry and diligence. He hoped that the Bill would be amended in these two respects before it came up to their Lordships; but if it was not, he should do his best to amend it by introducing two Clauses to the effect he had already stated.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRE- LAND).
Lord Farnhamwished to know from the noble Viscount opposite whether it was the intention of the Government to bring in a Bill during the present Session for the regulation of Municipal Corporations in Ireland. He begged to say, that the Report on the subject had only just been printed; that that Report was a very imperfect one, a circuit and a-half being totally omitted; and that at this late period of the Session it would be impossible to consider the whole of the Report, which consisted of above 1,100 pages, so that if a measure was now introduced it would be brought in at the end of the Session, and would be hurried through Parliament at a time when it was quite impossible that its details could be attended to.
Viscount Melbournesaid, that, the important subject mentioned by the noble Lord was under the consideration of the Ministers, and that he certainly hoped to

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be able to propose some measure on the subject before the end of the Session.

THE HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.
The Earl of Wicklowwished to put a question to the noble Viscount opposite, on the subject of the Houses of Parliament. When the Building Committee laid its Report on the Table, he had taken the liberty of calling the attention of their Lordships to the sort of provision which had been made for the accommodation of the Members of this House during the period that the new Houses would be in a course of building. What he said then was under the impression that the period would be short before proper accommodation was afforded to their Lordships. He now believed that that period would be much longer than he had originally anticipated, perhaps extending to four or five years. He wished, therefore, to ask the noble Viscount whether a better mode of accommodation than the present could not now be devised, and whether he had any plan for the accommodation of their Lordships during the Ion period that must necessarily intervene before the two Houses could be erected.
Viscount Duncannonsaid, that he believed the noble Earl anticipated a longer time than would be required, for he understood that two years would be the utmost period required to complete the building. Several questions had been put to him on this subject, and he thought that he should best answer them all by reading the letter he had received from Sir Robert Smirke on the subject. He had asked Sir Robert Smirke whether any alteration could be made in the present House by taking any thing from the thickness of the walls, secondly, whether the House could be enlarged by the building of new walls, leaving the roofs and facings as at present; thirdly, whether a temporary House could be fitted up in Westminster Hall; and, fourthly, whether he could make any proposition by which the accommodation for their Lordships, even under the present plan, could be increased; and whether any apertures could be made to admit the air so as to ventilate the House in a better manner than at present. The best mode of stating the answers to these questions would be by reading the letter. The noble Viscount here read the letter as follows. It was dated June 25:—
My Lord,—I have, according to your
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Lordship's desire, considered in what manner it may be possible to provide greater accommodation for the House of Lords, either by enlarging the present room occupied by their Lordships, or by erecting a temporary one of suitable dimensions in some convenient situation.
The walls of the present room are from four and a-half to five feet in thickness, but they are built of rough materials—chalk and rubble-stone, loosely held together, and in some parts so much fractured, that it would be impossible to increase the width of the room by cutting away any portion of their thickness; an enlargement of the present room could only be made by taking down the walls altogether, and rebuilding them.
I am of opinion that it would incur very little more expense to build another larger room in a temporary manner, which might be done in the space between the north wall of the present room and the south wall of St. Stephen's Chapel, and where it would stand clear of the line of any permanent buildings that may be erected before the removal or alteration of the present ones.
In this space a room could be built, raised to the same level as the others, thirty-eight feet wide (which was the width of the former House of Commons), and seventy feet long; leaving a sufficient area (about thirty feet) to preserve the light of the rooms and offices which occupy the site of the Long Gallery.
A passage might be made to communicate with the Lobby of the House of Commons from the north end of the room below the Bar, which would be at that end.
The entrance for Peers would be from the present House through doors made in the wall opposite the end of the Royal Gallery, and at the end of the passage recently made at the back of the Throne.
The expense of building such a room would he about 4,500 l. The seats, &c, now used, might be removed into it, and fitted to it without much alteration, and the Throne would also be removed and placed at the south end, between the two doors of entrance.
Your Lordship desired me to consider whether any arrangement could be made with advantage for providing the required accommodation in Westminster Hall; and I beg to state to your Lordship, that when the plans for the temporary buildings were first under consideration, immediately after the fire, the occupation of Westminster Hall for a part of them was fully considered: the plan was abandoned on account of the expense and inconvenience of removing the Courts of Law, which would have been necessary: and on account also of the difficulty of providing any means of warming and lighting rooms made in the Hall without injury to the building, and greatly increasing the risk of fire in it.
The Hall is so far removed from all the offices of the House of Lords, that I do not think any use can be made of it at this time

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for their Lordships' convenience, in connexion with those buildings.
I have the honour to be, my Lord,
Your very obedient servant,
(Signed) ROBT. SMIRKE.
Lord Broughamsaid that the present House was about one of the most inconvenient places that could be imagined. Though it was small, it was bad for hearing—its temperature was bad, for though it might require healthy ventilation it was full of draughts, so that he was in absolute horror when he heard of opening apertures for air. In fact, he thought that the ingenuity of man could hardly contrive any thing not as a sample of a House of Parliament, but as a beacon, as a warning to all future architects not to attempt the erection of a building which should possess so many inconveniences as they enjoyed here,. It was so cold here, that after sitting in the House in the morning he had gone out into a north wind to enjoy the benefit of a milder temperature. He had so long been accustomed to very inconvenient places, such as our Courts of Justice, that he himself made no complaint, and if the expense was considerable, he was ready to go on as at present.
The Earl of Wicklowwas most happy to have the opinion of the noble and learned Lord with him, since the noble and learned Lord who sat for so many hours in the House, spoke from the result of experience. He should be glad to hear what could be done to remedy the present evils; the more particularly as he believed something could be done without interfering with the erection of the intended permanent buildings.
Viscount Duncannonshould to-morrow propose to lay the letter of Sir R. Smirke before the Building Committee.

THE EARL OF DEVON.
Lord Denmansaid, that he had had the honour to communicate to the Earl of Devon the vote of approbation unanimously agreed to by their Lordships on a former evening, and had received an answer, which, with their Lordships' permission, he would now read. The noble and learned Lord read the letter, which was in the following terms:—
"Duke-street, June 26.
My Lord,—I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your Lordship's letter of yesterday's dale, communicating to me an unanimous resolution of the House of Lords, and I beg of you to convey to the House my
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sincere thanks for the very flattering manner in which my services as Clerk-Assistant have been noticed. To merit the approbation of one of the Houses of Parliament of this great country must be to every man a source of just pride; but this affords peculiar pleasure to one who has had the opportunities which I have enjoyed of witnessing the great talents and high tone of feeling which characterise the individuals who have concurred in this resolution; and this expression of approbation from the House of Lords is, I trust, calculated to answer a more important purpose than the gratification of my personal vanity. After more than thirty years spent in the various gradations of a lawyer's life, I am now retiring from a high office for which I was selected by those who were acquainted with my conduct in other situations. We know that in the exercise of the legal profession the successful Barrister secures for himself a high reward in the confidence and admiration of the public before whom he acts; but in the more quiet, though not less honourable, stations which it has been my lot to fill, the meed of praise from the few whose position peculiarly enable them to appreciate the due performance of the duties belonging to them, becomes doubly valuable; and whilst the flattering testimony now borne to my conduct will always be to me a source of the purest gratification, I think, also, the younger men engaged in the pursuit of a laborious profession may draw from it this useful lesson, that even without the possession of great powers and brilliant talents, they may assuredly secure to themselves much of honourable distinction and of worldly advantage, by the diligent and faithful discharge of the duties of those stations in which they may happen to be placed.
I beg to return your Lordship my best acknowledgments for the kind expressions with which you have accompanied the conveyance of the resolution to me; and
I have the honour to remain, my Lord,
Your Lordship's faithful servant,
The Lord Speaker, &c, DEVON.
Viscount Melbournemoved, "That the letter of the Earl of Devon be entered on the Journals."
Agreed to nemine dissentiente.

ABOLITION OF OATHS.
The Duke of Richmondsaid, that he had the other night given notice of his intention to propose to introduce a Bill to amend the Act recently passed for the Abolition of Oaths. He found that there were certain persons in the City who felt themselves aggrieved by the provisions of this Act, which abolished voluntary Oaths, and thus affected the affidavits made and sent out to some of our colonies to verify merchants' accounts transmitted there. As he found that that practice was not uniform, he

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should not propose to allow it where it did not now exist, but to abolish it in other places; and he should, therefore, propose to re-appoint the Committee on the subject of Oaths, when he believed that they would recommend the Abolition of the Oaths to which he had alluded. He therefore moved that the Committee be re-appointed,
Agreed to.