Lords Sitting of 22 June 1835

MINUTES.
Bill. Read a second time:—On the Motion of Lord BROUGHAM, Executors.
Petitions presented. By the Bishop of EXETER, from Grove (County Carlow), against the Appropriation of Church Property to other than Ecclesiastical Purposes.—By the Earl of BURLINGTON, from Alfreton, for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.—By Lord BROUGHAM and the Earl of ROSEBERY, from a Number of Places,—against any Grant for Building Churches in Scotland; and by the Earls of ROSSLYN and ABERDEEN, Viscount MELVILLE, and Lord BROUGHAM, from several Places,—in favour of such Grant, and for Protection to the Church of Scotland.—By the Archbishop of YORK, Lord CARBERY,

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and a Right Reverend PRELATE, from several Places,—for Protection to the Church of England.—By the Marquess CAMDEN and Lord SUFFIELD, from several Places, for Relief to the Agricultural Interest.

OFFICE OF CLERK ASSISTANT.
Lord Denman, as Speaker of the House, acquainted their Lordships that he had received a letter from the Earl of Devon which, with the permission of their Lordships, he would read to them. The letter which his Lordship read, was as follows:—
Duke Street, June 22, 1835.
My Lord,—I take the earliest opportunity of informing your Lordship, that the title of Earl of Devon having devolved upon me, by the death of my cousin, the late Earl, I have received his Majesty's Writ of Summons to attend as a Peer of Parliament; and I have to request of your Lordship to communicate to the House this circumstance, in consequence of which the office of Clerk-assistant will become vacant. I cannot retire from that office which I have held for nearly ten years, without being anxious to express through your Lordship, to the House of Lords, the deep sense that I entertain of the uniform kindness and confidence, which I have experienced in the execution of my various duties, from the House, generally, and from the several Speakers of the House, particularly, with whom I have necessarily been brought much in contact; a kindness and confidence which have rendered the performance of those duties easy and agreeable, and of which I shall always retain a grateful recollection.
I have the honour to be, my Lord,
Your Lordship's faithful and obedient servant,
DEVON.
To the Lord Speaker, &c.
The Earl of Shaftesburymoved, that the letter be entered on the Journals.
Agreed to.
Viscount Melbournesaid, that he had not been aware, that this letter would be laid before their Lordships this day, otherwise he should have been better prepared as to the course to be adopted on this subject than he was at the present moment. He should, however, now shortly state to their Lordships what he proposed to do. This event would make a vacancy among the Officers at their Table—a vacancy which, when their Lordships considered how the office of Clerk-assistant had been filled, all of them must much regret. At the same time, it was some consolation for them to know, that they should have the assistance of their late Officer as one of the Members of their House. He should advert to the course he intended to propose to their Lordships on this occasion on this subject. The Committee which
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sat in 1826, upon the subject of public offices, recommended, that whenever a vacancy in one of the offices of their Lordships' House should occur, the whole matter should be reconsidered with respect to the number of Clerks and their salaries. In pursuance of that recommendation, he should move to-morrow for the appointment of a Committee to take the whole subject into consideration. The noble Viscount here read the words of the Committee's Report, which exactly expressed what he had already stated.

PUBLIC INSTRUCTION (IRELAND).
The Bishop of Exeterpresented a Petition from the Minister, Churchwardens, and other inhabitants of a parish in the city of Carlow, against the appropriation of Church-property to any but Ecclesiastical purposes, and above all against its appropriation for the support and maintenance of Popery in that part of the Empire. He took that opportunity of mentioning that he had this day received a letter from a clergyman in Ireland of high character, of such high character that his Bishop, as that right reverend Prelate had informed him, had recently preferred him on that very account to a valuable living. He should read an extract from that letter, and should afterwards put the extract into the hands of the noble Lord. It referred especially to the appointment of one of the Gentlemen who had been appointed under the Commission for examining into the State of Public Instruction. The right reverend Prelate read the extract, as follows:—
"The appointment of Mr.—to act as the Commissioner at—had a tendency to deter Protestants and encourage Roman Catholics. For this Gentleman (who resides about four miles from—) was a well-known Roman Catholic agitator, and about five years ago had been chaired through that town on a Sunday, after having delivered a most inflammatory speech in the Chapel against the Established Church, the Constabulary, the Schools, and in fact every person and thing in the neighbourhood not employed in the extension of Popery. The meeting was adjourned for three weeks or a month, when I attended with several persons who had been represented as Roman Catholics to contradict the statements that had been made respecting them. One, a man named—, who was stated by the priest, on oath, to have declared that he, his wife, and eight children, were all Roman Catholics, was anxious to go before a Magistrate to swear that he never made such a

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declaration, and that his sons could not have been at Mass the Sunday previous. But no Commissioner came—his servant adjourned to a future day, when we again met, and were again disappointed, his man having come, after five o'clock in the evening, to say that his master could not attend; the people's patience was thus exhausted, and very few attended when the Commissioners came, and when, but for the accidental presence of the son of the rector, many persons, especially—and his family, before mentioned, would have been registered as Roman Catholics. One circumstance is worth attention—viz., that the Protestants who died or removed since 1831 were subtracted from the gross number, whilst the Roman Catholic population was not subtracted from."
Lord Duncannonwas not able, from recollection alone, to speak upon the matter at present.
The Bishop of Exeterhad merely mentioned the matter to give the noble Lord an opportunity of directing his attention to it.

BEER ACT.
Lord Rollewished to know whether it was the intention of the noble Viscount opposite to introduce any measure for the alteration of the Licensing Beer Act? He complained of the Act as it now stood; and attributed to the Beer-houses that in them thieves organized themselves into gangs, and then spread about all over the country.
Viscount Melbournewas afraid, that there was no system which could be adopted, that would not be subject to abuse in that way. If they were to abolish Beer-houses, the only change would be, that the gangs of thieves would meet as they formerly met, in public-houses.

WILLS—EXECUTORS.
Lord Broughamsaid, that with respect to the two Bills on this subject, the best course would be, to refer them to the consideration of a Committee up stairs. Before that Committee, the Commissioners who had reported on the subject might be, if necessary, examined, and the Committee could then report the Bills to the House, with such Amendments as their examination of the whole matter might appear to them to render necessary.
Lord Abingerobserved, that with respect to the remarks he had made on Friday, he wished to state, that on that day he had, for the first time, learned anything of the matter. The noble and learned Lord had then truly told them,
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that the subject had been fully considered by some very learned persons. For those learned persons he had the greatest respect; but still he could not consent to such alterations in the ancient usages of the people on the subject of wills, as to consent to the Bills without their being fully considered. The learned persons who drew the Bill, had not thought fit to explain their reasons to the House; there was no preamble to the Bill stating the object in view, and the reasons for it; but the Bill began at once with the enactment, so that it appeared to him to be a specimen of the rule, "stet pro ratione voluntas." Since Friday last, he had carefully considered the provisions of both Bills; some he approved—some he doubted—some he could not understand. He, therefore, fully agreed with the proposition to send the Bills before a Committee.
Lord Broughammoved, that they be respectively read a second time, and referred to a Select Committee.
Motion agreed to, and Committee named.

WHITEHALL CHAPEL.
The Earl of Malmesburywished to ask a question of the noble Lord opposite, as to the mode of distributing the Maundy money in future. He saw, by the vote of the House of Commons, that money had been granted to build up a Chapel for the soldiers, and to put in repair the Chapel at Whitehall. He was glad to see the grant, because for some years past the ceremony of distributing the Maundy money had been performed in a temporary building. The erection and pulling down of that building was a great nuisance to the tenants in that neighbourhood and a great cost to the public. He hoped that there would be no longer any reason for the continuance of such a nuisance, but that the Maundy money would be distributed in the Chapel.
Lord Duncannonsaid, that when the Chapel was finished, the Maundy money would be distributed there. While the military attended the Chapel, that was impossible; but now there was to be a Chapel built for them in the Birdcage walk, and as soon as the Whitehall Chapel was finished, it would be used for the purpose mentioned by the noble Earl.