Lords Sitting of 12 June 1835

MINUTES.
Bills. The Royal Assent was given by Commission to the Oaths' Abolition, and a great Number of Private Bills,—Read a second time:—Consolidated Fund.
Petitions presented. By the Duke of GORDON and Viscount MELVILLE, from several Places, for further Accommodation in Scotch Churches, and for protection to the Established Church of Scotland.—By the Marquess of BRISTOL and the Earl of MORLEY, from Plymouth, and Bury St. Edmund's, against allowing Beer to be drunk on the Premises of Beer Shops.—By the Marquess of BRISTOL and the Earl of HARROWBY, from several Places,—for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.

EDUCATION.
Lord Broughamsaid, that it was in the recollection of their Lordships that the debate upon his Resolutions relative to Education had been postponed to the present time. He now proposed that the consideration of these Resolutions should be resumed on Thursday next.—[Several noble Lords said that that day was the anniversary of the battle of Waterloo.]—Oh! he begged pardon; he would not let the schoolmaster come in competition with the hero on that day; and if all conquerors fought with as pure motives, and for purposes as much directed to public advantage—Qthe Duke of Wellington bowed]—there would be less necessity than at present for arraying the schoolmaster against them. The noble and learned Lord then appointed Tuesday week for the further consideration of these Resolutions, observing that as there were some Resolutions in the House of Commons which embraced a part of his plan, and but a small though an important part of it, he wished to bring it as early as possible before their Lordships.
The Lords ordered to be summoned for Tuesday week.

LORD BROUGHAM'S PENSION.
Lord Broughamsaid, that he had had an opportunity, somewhat irregularly, but such as all their Lordships enjoyed, of knowing that there had been certain statements made in another place which were very complimentary to him, but which, as they were wholly untrue, he was most anxious to contradict. It was said that he now enjoyed a pension of 15,000 l.; he wished he did: it was a pension of 5,000 l.; and it was said that he enjoyed this pension merely for having had a large salary as Chancellor for the term of four years. He should have that pension if he had only been five minutes Chancellor. It was said that he gave up nothing for it; he gave up a larger, a much larger income. He was

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ready to take these parties strictly at their word, and if these excellent persons would send up a Bill enabling him to have again what he had given up—his practice at the Bar, he should—he meant it not offensively to their Lordships, whose good will and favour he was always anxious to conciliate, however unfortunate he might have been in his attempt—be the first person to second such a Bill, and further it in its progress through that House. These persons, these very persons, who, when he made an offer to take upon himself a most laborious office, in order to save the pension, these very persons were those who, by the clamour they raised, drove him, against his better judgment, to retract the offer he had made. He said at the time, "Now mark what will follow; these very persons who raise this clamour will be the first to complain of me for having a pension." They were the first persons to do so. He was not altogether idle. What he did was certainly voluntary; there was no necessity for him to perform any labour, but he had thought it his duty to assist as far as he could in the administration of the judicial business of this House. In that labour he had employed six or seven hours each day for a period of ten weeks, since the judicial business had commenced sitting five or six days during the week. He did not sit in that way in consideration of the provision he received, for he had a right to that provision; but he did sit to assist in the administration of the judicial business of that House, and no one could say that that business was inattentively, though it might be ill performed; for he believed that in no period had there been so many written judgments delivered as by himself in the course of this Session.
Subject dropped.

SLAVES IN THE MAURITIUS.
Lord Broughamsaid, that he had yesterday asked a question relative to slavery in the Mauritius, when his noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies was not present. He now begged leave to repeat that question. There were 30,000 negroes in the Mauritius as slaves. They were made so by acts of piracy and otherwise; and he wished to know, first, whether any means had been adopted to effect their release; and, secondly, whether any steps had been taken to interpose a public decree, which should render it impossible for any one of the slaves thus detained to be taken into the account in the distribution of the twenty
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million sterling, which had been voted as compensation to the slave-owner.
Lord Glenelgsaid, that in order to answer the question put to him by his noble and learned Friend, he feared he would have to trespass for a longer period on their Lordships' attention than he could have wished. His noble and learned Friend had truly said that this was a most important and interesting subject, and he (Lord Glenelg) could assure their Lordships that no one felt its interest and importance more deeply than he did. His noble and learned Friend, however, had allowed that it was a subject surrounded by difficulties, and no one could more accurately judge of those difficulties than his noble and learned Friend. He (Lord Glenelg) offered this observation merely to show to their Lordships that the subject had not wholly escaped his attention, and that he was fully aware of the practical difficulties in the way of accomplishing the object which his noble and learned Friend seemed to have in view. Although he said this, he would be most happy to give his support to any measure by which the evil could be remedied; but he, at the same time, feared that the period for such a measure had long since passed. Their Lordships must all feel that the difficulties which surrounded the identification of any individual negro who had been illegally imported into the Mauritius were all but insurmountable. It was, he admitted, quite true that there had been illegal importations of slaves into that colony. The fact had been satisfactorily ascertained by the Commissioners who had been sent out there to inquire into the subject. And although they stated that this illegal traffic had been carried on to a considerable extent, they did not specify whether the number of negroes imported amounted to 30,000, or any other number; they mentioned no specific number. Now, besides the difficulty of selecting and identifying any individual negro who had been illegally imported, there were a great variety of other difficulties in the way; inasmuch as the importation of slaves into the Mauritius had altogether ceased during the last fifteen years. It had been his duty since he entered the office which he had the honour to hold, to examine into the facts connected with this question, and from the best information he was able to procure on the subject, he had arrived at the conclusion that since 1820 no importation of slaves had taken place into the Mauritius. It was in the years 1817, 1818, and 1819,

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that the first attempts to put an end to the traffic in the colony were made by Colonel Hall and Colonel Darling. Those officers did their duty admirably, and the result was, that an end was put to all further importation of slaves. In 1821, a treaty was made with the King of Madagascar, he being the great importer of slaves, the effect of which was, to put an end to any further importation. In 1826, another measure was passed relative to the trade, and which completely answered its purpose. He mentioned these facts, in order to show that they must go back for nearly twenty years to find out any individuals who had been illegally imported as slaves. The difficulty of proving the fact of illegal importation would, therefore, be very great; and this he said, not from any opinion he had formed himself upon the subject, but upon the authority of gentlemen who were well acquainted with legal proceedings, and consequently enabled to speak with accuracy on such matters. He was told that a negro who had been illegally imported was entitled to his freedom, because, never having been a slave, he had never forfeited his liberty; but then came the difficulty of proving such a case. It could not, as he understood, be proved in any Court in the Isle of France, and although an appeal might be made to the Court of Admiralty, he believed that such an appeal would not be successful, because, even admitting the negro to he evidence in his own case, still the confusion in which such testimony was proverbially involved, a confusion inconceivable to persons unacquainted with the character of such witnesses, rendered it utterly impossible to arrive at the truth. Until the Isle of France became an acquisition of this country, the slave trade was carried on there to a considerable extent; but he admitted that his noble Friend (Lord Ripon), when at the head of the Colonial Department, applied himself to this subject. His noble Friend commissioned a gentleman to go out to the Isle of France to ascertain whether or not illegal importations were still carried on there; and this gentleman, but not without great trouble and expense, succeeded in bringing several cases of this description to trial. The number of negroes thus proved to have been illegally imported amounted to from 400 to 500; but he (Lord Glenelg) doubted very much whether, if a similar attempt were now made, it would not be completely baffled. Indeed, he did not believe that it would be possible to arrive at any certain
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conclusion under such circumstances, which, no doubt, was the reason why the Government had not been able to follow up the course which his noble Friend had adopted. Now he (Lord Glenelg) lamented that such was the case, as he was as desirous as any one could be to arrest the evil. He did not, however, see how that could be done; but if his noble and learned Friend would suggest any means of effecting that object, all he could say was that it should have his best consideration. To show that he was not indifferent to the subject, he was ready to admit that even if one single instance could be established, it should be visited with the penalties of the law; but while he said this, he would, with their Lordships' permission, take the liberty of making one observation, which would go to show that slaves were not now in so wretched and deplorable a condition as formerly. He was by no means desirous of narrowing the feeling with which they were generally regarded, but it must be acknowledged on all hands that their situation since the passing of the Slavery Abolition Act was better than it had been at any former period. He had already admitted that if even a single case of illegal importation could be brought home, it would justify the interposition of the Government; but as the negro, whether slave or not, would have to pass through an apprenticeship before he received his freedom, it was, he must say, a source of consolation to think that the change which had taken place in the law had so far improved his situation, as he had now only to work seven Hours and a half a day, and was amply provided with both food and raiment. While he said this, he wished it to be fully understood that if any cure for the evil could be discovered, he should gladly avail himself of it; but at the same time he thought that the representation came too late to enable the application of a remedy, as the Rules and Orders respecting the compensation to be given to the slave-owners must have reached the Colony in January or February last, and were now actually in force. For these reasons he should be reluctant to take any step at present upon the subject; but, with respect to the question of compensation, he certainly should regret extremely that any person who had taken part in the illegal importation of slaves should also share in the compensation to be given to the bonâ fide slave-owner. He feared, however, they were precluded from raising the objection by the Slavery Abolition Act;

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but if that were not the case, all he could now do was to repeat his readiness to consider any suggestion on the subject which might be thrown out.
Lord Broughammust say, that if we were to pay 500,000 l. or 600,000 l. in respect of illegally imported slaves, or in other words, for felony and piracy, it would be one of the most hateful operations ever perpetrated in the financial concerns of this country. He was not sure, however, that we should not be compelled to do some thing of this kind, but thought that means might be found to narrow the amount of this species of compensation by instituting a proper inquiry on the spot. He had received suggestions on this subject from persons acquainted with the Mauritius, which he should refer to the Colonial-office, in the hope that they would not be discarded till they were found after mature consideration incapable of producing the effect which their authors anticipated from their adoption.
The Earl of Riponsaid, that when in the Colonial-Office he had applied his attention to this subject, and, acting on information communicated to him by persons well acquainted with the Mauritius, he gave instructions to facilitate the bringing cases of illegally imported slaves before the Court of Admiralty. The result of the inquiries made had been more efficacious than his noble Friend supposed: for before his instructions were sent out upwards of 1,200 individuals had been released. How many more were liberated after the new instructions went out he could not tell. [Lord Glenelg:—I believe 500.] Very likely. With regard to compensation, if it could be proved in reference to any one person that he had been illegally imported, the owner could not claim compensation on account of an individual who, though held in slavery, in point of law never was a slave. He admitted that proof of the fact would be attended with incalculable difficulty. However, he again said, if it could be shown that an individual had been illegally imported, neither on account of him nor of his descendants was an owner entitled to compensation. The whole slave population of the Mauritius did not exceed 65,000, and he thought his noble and learned Friend had overstated the amount of compensation for illegally imported slaves when he fixed it at 600,000 l.
Lord Glenclgsaid, that from 1810 to 1826 nearly 3,000 persons held in slavery had been liberated; but those were slaves
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captured by our cruisers or illegally adjudged.

SPANISH AUXILIARIES.
Viscount Strangfordwished to inquire of the noble Lord at the head of his Majesty's Government, in reference to an Order in Council recently published in the Gazette, by which British subjects were permitted to enter into the service of the Queen of Spain, whether the Government of this country contemplated making any provision for the widows and families of those persons who might perish in the contest which they were thus invited to engage in, or whether the Spanish Government intended to take that care on itself?—Or, if neither the British or Spanish Governments meant to take this course, he wished to know whether it was intended that the widows and orphans of persons who might be killed, or the families of those who should be disabled by wounds from earning their livelihood, were to be thrown as a burthen upon the parishes of this country.
Viscount Melbournesaid, it would be more convenient, if notice were given of such questions as that just proposed by the noble Viscount. Those British subjects who might enter the service of the Queen of Spain under the permission recently promulgated must look to the Government they were about to serve, and not to the Government of this country, for any provision which was to be made hereafter, and take all the chances of the service which they entered with their eyes open; they could have no claim on his Majesty's Government, and must depend upon other means.
Viscount Strangford.—That is, they or their families must come upon the parishes in England.
The Duke of Wellingtongave notice, that he should move on Monday for the production of the London Gazelle, for the purpose of drawing a more distinct explanation from the noble Viscount on the subject referred to.
The Marquess of Londonderryhoped that the Order in Council would be taken regularly into consideration.

CANADA COMMISSIONER.
The Earl of Aberdeensaid, that he had hitherto abstained from putting any questions on the subject of Canada, and had avoided entering prematurely upon the consideration of that important topic, from a desire not to embarrass noble Lords opposite in the con-

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sideration or performance of their duty, but having seen in the Gazette the appointment of a noble Lord to the office of Governor of the Colony, he thought the time had arrived when he might advert to the state of Canada. It was due to the importance of the subject and just to the House and to the country, and a duty which he owed to himself from what had taken place formerly in reference to it and to the pledges lie had given on the matter, to state what was the condition of the question at the time when the late Government resigned office. He also thought it only fair to noble Lords opposite, especially to the noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Department, to afford them an opportunity of stating, so far as they might think consistent with their duty, the course which they proposed to adopt in relation to Canada. Important as the subject was, he was aware that it now excited comparatively little interest in the House, but he was much mistaken, if, in a short time, it would not be pressed upon their notice, he hoped not under circumstances of additional pain and difficulty. He would not detain their Lordships with a minute narrative of the differences existing between this country and Canada, but would only advert shortly to what had taken place in the course of the last year. Early in last year certain Resolutions were passed by the House of Assembly of Lower Canada—twenty-two Resolutions—embodying a number of grievances, and containing various subjects of complaint, comprising much recriminatory matter against the local Government and the Government of this country. These Resolutions came before Parliament, and were in April, last year, referred to a Committee of the House of Commons, which examined the subject and continued their labours for upwards of three months, having before them every document that could be afforded by the Colonial Office, and all the evidence which it was possible to collect. The Committee made their Report on the 3rd of July. In that Report they declared no opinion of their own in reference to the subjects contained in the Resolutions, but lamented that much misconstruction of the measures of Government appeared to prevail in the colony, and referred it to the Government of this country to adopt measures calculated to clear up those misconstructions and restore harmony. From that time till the dissolution of the noble Viscount's Government, he did not think any step had been taken in furtherance or
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execution of this recommendation. True, a right hon. Gentleman had stated, that on the very day of the dissolution of the Government (the 15th of November) he did address a despatch to Lord Aylmer, in which he informed his Lordship, that he was prepared to send him full instructions on all points at issue on the next day but one—the 17th; but lamented that the dissolution of the Government prevented him from doing so. Now, whatever might have been the opinions and intentions of that right hon. Gentleman, it was impossible that any such instructions would or could have been sent out for some time. When he succeeded the right hon. Gentleman, in the office of Colonial Secretary, he found no vestige of any such instructions— no record of any proceedings on the subject in the Colonial Office. Having entered on a subject entirely new to him, and without the aid of any knowledge of his predecessor's intentions, he lost no time in making himself as conversant with the Question as he could, and after due investigation, and the lapse of a certain period, did address a despatch to Lord Aylmer, in which he announced the intention of Government to appoint a special Commissioner for the purpose of investigating and redressing all the grievances submitted to his consideration; and at the same time he gave the noble Lord a general view of the spirit and tenour of the instructions prepared for the guidance of such Commissioner. That despatch the Governor communicated to the Canadian House of Assembly; it was printed in the provincial papers, had since been copied into the English journals, and probably such of their Lordships as took an active interest in the subject had seen it. He trusted that no blame could attach to the spirit of the measures which the late Government had it in contemplation to adopt. A noble Lord was finally selected for the important office of Commissioner, but when the noble Lord's instructions were far advanced, it became apparent to him (the Earl of Aberdeen) that possibly he might not have to direct the execution of them. Under such circumstances, he might have declined to proceed further, and left the matter as he found it; however he thought it his duty to bring the whole subject to a state of completion, whatever might be the result, and leave it in as complete a state as he could, in order that noble Lords opposite might be able to execute it, if it should not be his own fate to do so. The instructions were completed. Having

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formed his own judgment upon all points at issue, having received the concurrence of his colleagues in the proposed course of policy, and finally, having obtained his Majesty's consent, he said the instructions were completed and given into the possession of the party who was to execute them in the first week of April. Had his noble Friend (Earl Amherst) proceeded in the execution of his duty under his noble successor in office, he should have been most anxious and ready to take any share of the responsibility for the instructions issued. If any alterations had been necessary, or if any fresh instructions conceived in the same spirit as his own had been suggested by the noble Lord (Lord Glenelg), he should have been most happy to have co-operated with him. However, noble Lords opposite adopted a different course. He would not enter into a detail of the nature and form of the instructions —it was sufficient to say, they were in strict conformity with the declarations he had formerly made in the House, and embraced the largest possible measure of conciliation, consistent with what was indispensable for the maintenance of the King's dominion in the province. Short of that point, the instructions proceeded on a principle of the utmost liberality. When he talked of large and liberal concessions, their Lordships were not to presume that sacrifices were to be made by this country, for it would be unjust to infer that what was conceded to Canada was lost to England. He could not conceive what interest this country could have in refusing large and liberal concessions—Legislative Assemblies were not to be treated as children, and entirely directed from this country; but should be left to the enjoyment of the utmost freedom, consistent with the maintenance of the King's dominion. Of what use were Legislative Assemblies, if they did not relieve the parent State from the responsibility and difficulty of constant interference in their concerns? Noble Lords opposite, however, did not think it advisable to adopt the course which he was prepared to pursue, and had therefore assumed the entire of that responsibility, which he should have been happy to have shared with them. He must confess, it was not without apprehension that he looked to the consequences of this change of proceeding. If the noble Lord had thought fit to act on his (the Earl of Aberdeen's) decision, much delay would have been avoided, which he feared was now likely to be attended with mischievous
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effects. Lord Aylmer in consequence of the information, that a Commissioner was going out, convened an extraordinary meeting of the Legislative Assembly for the 30th or 31st of last May. The Assembly would have met by this time, and if the noble Lord (Lord Glenelg) had acted on his predecessor's determination, the noble Earl (Earl Amherst) would have arrived in the province about this time, and entered at once upon a course of conciliation. As matters stood, the Assembly would have met before now, and the Governor would have had no option but to dissolve it, a course which he apprehended could not but be attended with bad effects. He could not help expressing regret that the person intrusted with the important office of Commissioner should have been changed—an observation by which he meant nothing invidious to the individuals now selected for the duty. He had been given to understand that noble Lords opposite expressed themselves desirous that the noble Earl (Earl Amherst) should continue to hold the office to which he had been appointed by their predecessors; if so, he must say, that rather extraordinary means had been resorted to to insure compliance with their wishes, for Ministers had adopted a course which rendered it impossible for the noble Earl to continue in the situation. He thought they could have expected no other result than the noble Earl's resignation, from the steps which they had taken. He begged to say, that the appointment of the noble Earl was not a political step on his part. He had no political connexion, and very little personal communication, with the noble Earl. He believed the noble Earl was a supporter of the Government of which the noble Viscount formed a part; he was certainly a member of his Majesty's household during that Government. He did not mention this as forming, in his opinion, any special qualification of the noble Earl, or any recommendation to his (the Earl of Aberdeen's) favourable opinion—not at all; but what did recommend the noble Earl to him was the knowledge he possessed of the noble Earl's sound judgment and discretion, of his long experience in public life, and the high offices the duties of which he had discharged with great credit to himself and advantage to the country. And, above all, the noble Earl was recommended to him by his amiable character and conciliating disposition. These were the considerations which induced him to select the noble Earl,

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and after the appointment, in giving his opinion and explaining his views on the subject to the noble Earl, he had seen enough to induce him now to say that he had never been instrumental in any appointment with which he had more reason to be thoroughly satisfied. As to the course now proposed to be taken, the noble Lord (Glenelg) would explain his intentions so far as he thought fit. He saw that a Governor and Captain-general of our North American provinces was appointed, and thence he was naturally led to conclude that there was no intention to send out a Commissioner, for if he could have prevailed on himself to recall Lord Aylmer, he never would have thought of sending out a Commissioner. However, from what he had subsequently heard, a Commission was intended to be sent out; a course which appeared to him not only useless, but worse than useless. It might be a fit thing in this country in moments of timidity, in order to get rid of a difficulty, to appoint a Commission of Inquiry, which he understood the new Commission was to be; but in this case a Commissioner ought to go out ready to act, and a Commission of Inquiry was worse than useless. It was competent to and incumbent on the Government to decide at once on all important matters now at issue in Canada; there were but few, and those trifling matters, on which further inquiry was required. However, he spoke in the dark on this subject, and should be still happy to hear what explanation the Government could offer. He had not brought the subject forward in a feeling of hostility to the Government; he did not disguise his apprehension that the course about to be taken, if he understood it aright, was not so calculated to lead to a favourable result as that which the late Government contemplated; but he still hoped he might be mistaken in his fears, and, in or out of the House, he should never be wanting in any efforts in his power to forward a favourable termination of existing difficulties. In conclusion, the noble Earl moved for a Copy of the Commission by which his Majesty had been pleased to appoint the Earl of Gosford Captain-general and Governor-in-chief of the provinces of Upper and Lower Canada.
Lord Glenelgoffered his acknowledgments to the noble Earl for the moderate spirit and temper in which he had brought forward his motion. This was a most important subject, and one above all party considerations; and he felt bound to admit
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he had ascertained that the noble Earl, when in office, had undertaken the question in reference to the good of this country and the colony, and not with a view to party considerations. He regretted, in common with the noble Earl, that delay had taken place in the matter. He would not enter into the supposed delay that occurred last year, not wishing to excite any discussion on that subject. His noble friend seemed to be of opinion that, notwithstanding what his right hon. Friend had said, Canada had not formed the subject of any document then in possession of his right hon. Friend.
The Earl of Aberdeenbegged to observe, that he had never said that his right hon. predecessor in office had not prepared a document containing his own views on the subject of Canada. His right hon. predecessor had sent out a despatch stating that those views would be submitted to the Cabinet on the 15th of November, and that full instructions would be sent out on the 17th. Now, it had turned out impossible that that promise could be fulfilled.
Lord Glenelgknew that his right hon. Friend had been most anxious to bring the subject under the consideration of the Cabinet, and, in point of fact, he also knew that it would have been immediately brought under their consideration but for events to which he would no further allude. His noble Friend said, that he had formed his opinions on this subject in great liberality. He most cheerfully admitted that the instructions which his noble Friend had prepared for the Commissioner to Canada were drawn up in a liberal spirit. His noble Friend, however, seemed to think that it was possible for the present Government to have taken up the question exactly as he had left it. Undoubtedly it would have been more easy for him to have done so. His first impulse certainly was to adopt the measure of his predecessor in office, and to close every part of the transaction in this country. But, with the noble Earl ready to depart for the Canadas, with a measure to be executed there, of which he must be answerable for the results, he put it to the noble Lord opposite whether he would have acted in a manner befitting the office which he had the honour to hold, supposing that he had adopted the instructions issued by his noble predecessor, and had sheltered himself from all responsibility under the responsibility which attached to his noble Friend for issuing them. Would it have been consistent with his official character to have

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stated, "I find these instructions ready to my hand, and I will accede to them without examination?" [The Earl of Aberdeen.— Not without examination.] Not without examination? Then there was no blame to be cast on Ministers that they did not proceed immediately, but took some time for inquiry. His noble Friend would undoubtedly have been willing to take his full share of responsibility, but he was sure that no man in his situation would have consented to allow his noble Friend to take a share in any responsibility which did not justly attach to his actions. It, therefore, became his duty to look into the nature of those instructions, and to see whether he could defend the whole of them. No one was more aware than his noble Friend of the vast extent of this question in all its bearings. He did not mean to say that he himself had mastered it. He had, however, looked into it diligently, and had exercised his judgment upon it to the best of his ability. After the most deliberate examination on the part both of himself and of his colleagues in the Government, it had been thought proper to change the instructions drawn up by his noble Friend. His noble Friend said, that he regretted extremely the change of person who had been selected as Commissioner. He (Lord Glenelg) regretted it too, for nothing was more true than that his Majesty's Government wished the noble Earl (Earl Amherst) to retain the situation to which he had been appointed. He was glad to see that noble Earl that evening in his place: and, seeing him there, he appealed to the noble Lord, whether the Ministry were not desirous to obtain for the country a continuance of his services in the Canadas. His noble Friend had said that it was impossible for the noble Earl to give Ministers his services, now that a Commission of three persons had been appointed, instead of a single Commissioner. To that he would only add, in reply, that among the reasons which the noble Earl had given for declining the appointment there was no statement of any disapprobation of the plan laid down by his Majesty's Government. He would not pretend to follow his noble Friend, point by point, through his speech; he must, however, allude to the inquiry made by his noble Friend as to the intentions of his Majesty's Government on this question. Instead of appointing a single Commissioner his Majesty's Government proposed to appoint a Commission consisting of three
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persons, one of whom was to be the Governor of the Canadas, to inquire into the grievances of those colonies. As far as was consistent with his duty, every information respecting the nature of that Commission should be afforded to their Lordships. He was sure that their Lordships would recollect that last year the House of Assembly in Canada sent over a petition to this country complaining of various grievances. That petition was referred to a Committee of the House of Commons, but nothing had been done as to the Canadas since then. With regard to the question as it now stood, he thought that all the noble Lords opposite would agree with him that it was impossible to pass by that appeal from Canada to England without examination. Then, as the House of Assembly had complained of grievances, there were only three modes of acting with respect to them. You might object instantly to all their complaints, and reject them entirely; or you might reject them in part, and concede them in part; or you might grant an inquiry into them with a view of redressing the grievances, if they were found to exist. Now, to reject their complaints instantly and entirely without inquiry would of course have been an improper line. It would have been deemed most objectionable even by the people of England. The petitioners had presented a petition complaining of grievances. A Committee of the House of Commons had heard their evidence, but had resolved that it ought not to be made public. All the Report which that Committee had made consisted of a recommendation to the Government to take such measures as they should deem proper to redress the grievances complained of. The petitioners would therefore have a right to say—"You suppressed the evidence which we gave; from that time we have been precluded from coming before you—and now you pronounce the entire and instant rejection of our claims." That course he thought was one which none of their Lordships would recommend. But if it were determined partially to reject and partially to grant the demands of the petitioners, that was equally open to objection. That could not be done without offending two parties, both those who assented to and those who denied the existence of grievances. There were at present in this country two deputies from Montreal and Quebec, specially delegated from Canada, claiming to be heard in

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their own persons before Parliament on this subject. Those persons would have a right to complain if any concessions were to be made which they might deem injurious to those whom they represented, without their being heard upon the subject. If, then, an inquiry was to be instituted, the only question left for consideration was, where should that inquiry take place? He thought that there could be little doubt that the proper place for such inquiry was the country in which the people resided who were affected by the alleged grievances, and in which remedies to those grievances must be applied. It had been asked by his noble Friend what reason there was for sending out more Commissioners than one. Now, it struck him that if a real and a searching inquiry was to be instituted, more than one Commissioner would be wanted to conduct it. The vast field of inquiry into which it would be necessary to enter in Canada would be beyond the powers of any single individual to undertake. Not only political questions but fiscal questions and judicial questions and legal questions of great importance, must come under the examination of the Commission, and it was therefore no disparagement to any individual, let his talents be what they might, to say that he would scarcely be able to grapple single-handed with the whole extent of the various subjects which must come under his consideration. It was not by receiving information at this distance from the Canadas that the best means of conciliating their inhabitants could be devised. If he wished to ascertain their grievances, and to learn what were the best practical remedies for them in the opinion of sober-minded men, the best mode of acquiring that knowledge was by mixing personally with them, and obtaining from their own mouths a knowledge of their feelings. If the Legislature received the delegates from the Canadas, and took their testimony, it ought not to forget that those delegates must be the representatives of extreme opinions, and the best advocates of their respective causes. If, therefore, the Legislature wished to obtain the best information, it must be sought by personal inquiry among the inhabitants of the country, who were most competent to afford it. The noble Lord, concluded by thanking their Lordships for the indulgent attention with which they had listened to his observations.
The Earl of Aberdeen,in reply, stated that he did not blame the Government for
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the course which it had adopted; he only regretted that they had not deemed it expedient to pursue the same line which the late Government had chalked out for itself. If, however, in consequence of the adoption of a less liberal course than that which he had intended to pursue, the result should be less favourable than their Lordships all wished, he should then, if he found that there was any likelihood of our being obliged to resort to other measures, consider it to be his duty to move that a copy of the instructions which he had prepared should be laid before their Lordships, in order that they might see what would have been the consequences had a different policy been adopted.
Motion agreed to.