Lords Sitting of 3 July 1835

MINUTES.
Bills. Received the Royal Assent:—Sugar Duties; Indemnity; Corn (Isle of Man); Western Australia Settlement, and Dominica Relief.
Petitions presented. By the Marquess of BUTE, for a Grant to the Scotch Church; and from the Merchants of Cardiff, for an Equalization of the Duties on Timber.—By the Bishop of GLOUCESTER, from the Inhabitants of Fairford, for Protection to the Established Church.

FRENCH DUTY ON WOOL.
The Duke of Richmondwished to ask his noble Friend a question as to the Duties now imposed on English Wool imported into France. He wished to know whether it was likely that the amount of that duty would speedily be reduced?
Lord Aucklandsaid, he must remind his noble Friend that the amount of the duty imposed by the French Government had already been reduced one-third.
The Duke of Richmondhoped that our Minister in France would press upon the Government the propriety of reducing these duties still further. The French wool imported here paid (as we understood the noble Duke) a duty of 1d. in the pound, whereas the English wool imported into France paid a duty of 20 per cent, of the value. The agriculturists of the country did not think that such a scale of duties was the reciprocity which they had been promised.
Lord Aucklandsaid, that his right hon. Friend at the head of the Board of Trade would, undoubtedly, give his utmost attention to this important subject, but his noble Friend ought to bear in mind that our own reductions of duty had been but gradual, and were not willingly acceded to. There had been some difficulty in reconciling some interests in this country to the change, and there would, no doubt, be the same difficulty in reconciling some interests in France, however the change might be for the benefit of the whole country.
Subject dropped.

EDUCATION — (CHARITIES).
Lord Brougham,in pursuance of the notice which he had given a few evenings since, presented to their Lordships a Bill founded on the Resolutions relative to Education, which he had on that occasion been induced to withdraw. The first part of the Bill had reference to the diffusion of Education generally. It provided also for the just and conscientious distribution or application of the funds granted by Parliament for the purposes of education. That the funds so granted should be properly administered, it was absolutely necessary that persons responsible to the Crown and to Parliament should have the supervision of them; and provision was made to that end. There was another class of persons named in the Bill as supervisors of charitable trusts, whose functions would be inquisitorial and quasi judicial, as the details of the Bill would show. These individuals were to be appointed by the Crown (the fountain of all such authority), and were to be empowered to take cognizance of estates held in trust for the purposes of education. It was proposed that this Board should consist of three persons—the President of the Council, the Lord Privy Seal, and the Secretary of State for the Home Department. To these he would add, if it were deemed necessary, the Speaker of

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the House of Commons. The power with which they would he invested, the authority which they would be permitted to exercise, and the duties which they would have to perform, were clearly specified in the Bill. The Bill provided that those individuals should have a constant, and, as he hoped, a perfectly effectual control over estates held in trust for charities, so as to prevent their mismanagement or abuse; and it would enable them to do every thing, as far as it possibly could be done to promote sound principles of education; at first, by empowering them to consult with persons connected with those charitable trusts, for the purpose of advising them as to the course which they ought to pursue, and not to adopt any compulsory proceeding, unless it was found that this Clause, enabling them to counsel and advise, was utterly ineffectual. In that case, compulsory powers would be given, in order that their instructions might be carried fully into effect.
Bill read a first time.

SPAIN—(DECREE OF DON CARLOS).
The Marquess of Londonderryseeing the noble Viscount in his place, begged leave to call his attention to the subject with respect to which he had yesterday asked a question. He alluded to the Decree of Don Carlos, the authenticity of which the noble Viscount had questioned: he had been favoured by a correspondent with a communication on the subject, so that he did not of himself, or of his own knowledge, aver the authenticity of the document. His correspondent wrote thus:—"My Lords,—In order that your Lordship may be enabled to set the Minister right, I inform your Lordship that I have seen myself the original Decree of Don Carlos; and I herewith send you a certified copy, and a translation of it." Here, then, was the original decree in Spanish. Now, he thought he might appeal to the noble Viscount to institute an inquiry on this subject; he thought that he might, as a British, soldier, urge him in the strongest manner to take effectual means to ascertain what the real construction of the convention negotiated by Lord Eliot was? In his opinion a military Commission ought to be sent forthwith to Don Carlos, in order to let the country know what was really the fact. Troops, it appeared, were being embodied in this country, whose destination was Spain; and knowing that the Spanish peasants were of a revengeful
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nature, he felt that, before those individuals went abroad, the point ought to be decided, whether the convention to which he had alluded, and which was so admirably planned, would be carried into full effect with reference to that force. He, therefore, called on the noble Viscount to ascertain without delay the true meaning and construction of the convention.
No answer was returned to the noble Marquess, and the Subject was dropped.

DELAY OF BUSINESS.
Lord Broughambegged to draw their Lordships' attention to the fact that they had now arrived at the 3rd day of July, and that, although a great deal of judicial business had been disposed of, no Legislative business of any consequence had been done. Not one of the great promised measures of the Session had as yet been brought under their Lordships' consideration at all; nor were they likely to be from the progress which he understood had been made in them in the other House. Of the Corporation Bill a very few Clauses had passed through the Committee, and the Irish Church Bill had not yet been even brought into that House. To obviate the great pressure of business which must inevitably, according to the present course of affairs, come upon their Lordships before the Session closed, he would propose, as a means of expediting public business, that the leading features of those two measures should be forthwith submitted to the House in the form of Resolutions, so that the House might thoroughly discuss the principles involved in them, and, having come to an understanding thereon, leave only the details of the Bills to be discussed after the Bills themselves were sent up from the other House.
Viscount Melbournesaid, that if the general feeling of the country called for great and comprehensive measures, which required grave consideration, their Lordships must be prepared to make those laborious exertions which circumstances demanded. It was impossible for them to withdraw themselves from the consequences necessarily attendant on the consideration of such important measures. If the suggestion of the noble and learned Lord were acted on—if they were to proceed by passing resolutions—he was convinced that no time would be saved. It would only be the means of superadding a considerable portion of supernumerary labour to that to which, in the ordinary course of proceeding, they would be subjected.
Lord Broughamsaid, it would be a fortnight or three weeks before the Municipal Corporation Bill could be presented to their Lordships; and in the mean time he thought that they might do something with the Irish Church Bill.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that it was necessary, in the first place, before they could take any such step as had been recommended, that there should be laid before the House that information on which the Bills alluded to were founded. If he were not mistaken, two parts only of the four Reports and appendices on which the Municipal Corporation Bill had been founded were at present laid before their Lordships. Although the Bill had made considerable progress in the other House, still only two parts had been placed on their Lordships' Table. How, then, could they come to an accurate decision in the absence of the necessary information?
The Conversation dropped.

PROCESSIONS—(IRELAND).
The Marquess of Londonderrysaid, he rose in consequence of the notice he had given, to call their Lordships' attention to a circular which had been recently addressed to the Magistrates of the north of Ireland by the Lord-lieutenant. That circular appeared to him to have been unnecessary. It seemed to cast a degree of reproach on the Magistrates, who, he believed, were anxious to perform their duty impartially, and to the utmost of their power. The circular to which he alluded he should now read. The noble Marquess read the following circular:—
"Dublin Castle, June 19, 1835.
"Sir,—The Lord-lieutenant prefers to any public proclamation the present mode of calling your attention to the peculiar vigilance which occasions may shortly require, in the exercise of your Magisterial duties. His Excellency takes this course because he feels assured that your own inclination, as well as the interest you must naturally take in the peace and welfare of your neighbourhood, must induce you to discourage proceedings so destructive of both, whether they have reference to the celebration, by procession or other display, of the anniversary of an exclusive political event, or of an exclusive religious observance.
"Should you, therefore, have reason to believe that it is the intention of any party to make a display of the nature of that to which I have adverted, you will explain to them that such a proceeding has a direct tendency to provoke a breach of the peace, and is a violation of the law, which it is his Excellency's
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determination to support by every means in his power.
"I have the honour to be, Sir, your most obedient humble servant, "WM. GOSSET."
Now, instead of a letter of this kind, it would, he thought, have been much better, if any disturbance were expected, to issue a proclamation. But, instead of pursuing that plan and obvious course, the Lord-lieutenant had deemed it necessary to send round this circular, which, he repeated, did convey, if not directly, by implication, a reproach on the Magistrates which they did not deserve. He should, therefore, be glad to know why this unusual course was adopted? Since the passing of the Act prohibiting them (two or three years ago) he believed that no such processions had taken place as those that were alluded to in the circular. When he recollected the procession which accompanied the Lord-lieutenant into Dublin, to stop which no attempt had been made, it did appear to him that the conduct of the Irish Government was not distinguished by impartiality. He had been informed that an individual who had held a situation in Dublin Castle, under each succeeding Lord-lieutenant, for forty years, had been recently dismissed to make room for a relation of Lord Edward Fitzgerald— a name certainly ominous in Ireland. If that individual, Sir Stuart Bruce, had been dismissed, without consideration, after forty years' service, to make room for another, it was, he conceived, an act of great harshness.
Viscount Melbournesaid, that the document to which the noble Marquess had referred explained itself very intelligibly. The situation of parties in Ireland (and it should be recollected that the subject had been brought before their Lordships), and the statements made by noble Lords on the other side of the House, that, owing to circumstances to which they then adverted, some disturbance was likely to arise on the 12th of July, gave a complete answer to the Noble Marquess, as clearly pointing out the necessity that existed for sending forth that letter. The circular, therefore, was neither uncalled for nor extraordinary. It was very natural, that in his anxiety to preserve the peace, the noble Lord at the head of the Irish Government should have called the attention of the Magistrates to the law which existed on the subject of party processions. He had reason to believe, from the good sense which prevailed in Ireland, and from the exertions of those who had

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influence there (which influence they had used to prevent the manifestation of party feelings on the 12th of July) that, notwithstanding the anticipations of noble Lords in that House, no breach of the public peace was likely to take place. The noble Marquess had said, this mode of proceeding was extraordinary, and that it would have been better to have issued a Proclamation. But this course had been adopted in 1829, in 1832, and in 1833. On each of those occasions a circular had been sent forth. Here then were precedents that fully justified the proceeding. As to the general observations of the noble Marquess, he should only say, that the Government of Ireland was conducted on principles of the strictest impartiality. With respect to the case of the individual to which the noble Marquess had referred, it was the first time that he had heard of the arrangement. The Lord-lieutenant had, however, a right to make what arrangement he pleased in his household. These were points of which their Lordships certainly could not take cognizance.