GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY.

HL Deb 27 August 1835 vol 30 cc1012-26

Lord Wharncliffe

presented the Report from the Committee on the Great Western Railway Bill, and moved that it be agreed to.

Lord Kenyon

rose to address their Lordships, feeling himself compelled by a sense of duty. The circumstances which had taken place in the Committee on this Bill were of such an extraordinary nature that he would venture to say that they were altogether unparalleled during the thirty-five years that he had had the honour of having a seat in that House. The Committee had met on forty-one days, and in the course of that time a small number of Peers only attended the Committee, but at the termination of the proceedings many attended and voted without knowing what the merits of the Bill were. He was one of those Peers who thought that this was a measure of very great importance, and went into the Committee wholly unbiassed one way or the other, but with an anxious wish to afford to the inhabitants of Bristol the accommodation they wished for, and which they had petitioned the House to extend to them. He had been favoured by the Clerk of the Committee with a list of the Peers who attended, together with the number of days they were present. The Committee sat for forty one days, and the largest number of Peers who had been present during the sittings attended yesterday. Among those noble Lords who had most assiduously attended the investigation before the Committee was his noble Friend, the Chairman, who was present every day. The Report was agreed to yesterday by the Committee under the circumstances he had just mentioned, and after a division had taken place, when thirty-three Peers voted on one side, and twenty one on the other; looking to the majority of thirty-three who voted for the Report, he found that twenty-nine were noble Lords who had attended the Committee only that day, and for the first time. He might be told that noble Lords were justified in voting, who had not previously attended the Committee, provided they had read the evidence; but he must observe, that there was a great deal of difference between attending a viva voce examination, and merely looking over the evidence. The resolutiou come to yesterday in favour of the Bill was not agreed to by the majority of those who had most constantly attended the sittings of the Committee. He did not intend to throw out any imputations against any of the noble Lords, for they had to settle the matter with their own consciences, and he was bound to assume that every peer who gave his vote on the occasion was doing what he considered to be his duty. He felt called upon to trouble their Lordships with a short statement as to the circumstances of the case. He would proceed to show the grounds which induced him to think that the Committee yesterday came to a wrong conclusion as to this Bill. In opposition to the line of road proposed by the promoters of the Bill from London to Bristol, another had been proposed, the adoption of which, he believed, would be more advantageous. If this Bill passed, a new railway would be necessary of the length of 129 miles, whereas the other line of road would only require a railway of the length of eighty-four miles. The latter line of road was from London to Basing, and thence to Bristol, and this railway had been proposed to the Committee in competition with what was called the Great Western Railway. A portion of the railroad he had just alluded to was now in the course of construction, under an Act of Parliament of last Session for constructing a railroad from London to Southampton. It appeared that the parties interested had ample funds for the completion of this railroad, and satisfactory evidence had been adduced to show that all the money that was required was forthcoming. They had also good evidence that the projectors of it had sufficient funds in their possession to go on with it as quickly and it appeared that the instalments were always paid up readily and immediately they were called for. Again, forty-five miles of this rail-road would be completed within a short time, and therefore the whole would be completed with less delay than if the line of road laid clown in this Bill was adopted. He admitted, from all that he could hear, that there was a probability of a sufficiency of funds for the completion of the Great Western Railway; at the same time a considerably smaller sum would be required for the formation of the road through Basing to Bristol. As, therefore, this last line of road could be completed in a shorter time than the other, and as it would cost less, the convenience of the public would be best consulted by adopting it. He was sure, therefore, that their Lordships would consider that a satisfactory case had been made out for the adoption of the railroad of eighty four miles, instead of the line of road of one hundred and twenty-nine miles. He believed that the difference in the time of travelling on either of these lines of railroad by locomotive engines would not be very great, as he understood the difference in the time of the journey from London to Bristol would not exceed ten minutes. Therefore, as far as that point was involved, there was no great difference. He was also satisfied that the Bristol and Basing line of road had a much better termination in London than that proposed in the Bill. That railroad would terminate on the other side of the river on the banks of the Thames. He thought it desirable that a line of road from Bristol should end near the river Thames, by means of which the produce and commodities sent up to town could be easily distributed to all parts of the metropolis, instead of sending them, as proposed in this Bill, to a dèpôt at a considerable distance from the river. There was to be a dock at the terminus of the Southampton railroad, by which goods from Bristol or elsewhere could easily be shipped and sent to their destinations. The difference in the charges for passengers and goods on the two lines of roads, would be so small as to be of very little importance. It was said by the advocates for this Bill, that the Great Western Railway passed near a number of large towns in the vicinity of London; but it appeared that most of these places were unwilling to have the railway near them. A great number of most respectable persons residing in the neighbourhood of Hanwell, close to which it was proposed the railway should pass, entertained the strongest objections to it, and had constantly opposed it. Again, he thought it objectionable, as it was cutting up the country near London more than was necessary, as there was already a line of railroad to the West of England. It was stated by the supporters of the Great Western Railway, that great facilities would, be afforded by it for the carriage to London of hardware goods, pottery, &c, from the middle counties, as it might easily be connected, by branch roads, with several important manufacturing towns. He did not think that much weight should be attached to this statement, as no such branch lines of roads were mentioned in the preamble to the Bill, nor were they more than merely alluded to before the Committee. Supposing this Bill did not pass, the line of road from London to Bristol, by way of Basing, would be found of greater convenience to the inhabitants of Bristol. A Bill passed last year for making a railway from London to Southampton, which, it was proposed, should communicate by a branch road from Basing with Bristol. There could be no doubt but that it would be a great convenience to have such a direct line of communication between Bristol and Southampton as was proposed by this means. By adopting this line of road, there would be a direct communication between Bristol and the British Channel, as well as the French Ports. Persons also coming from Ireland, could thus proceed directly to the Continent. A great many objections had been urged against this Bill by the masters of Eton School. They objected with a great deal of justice, against the railroad being brought so near that seminary. It was said that those objections had been in some degree obviated. He did not know whether this was the case or not; but of course it was for the heads of that establishment to form a judgment on the subject. It appeared to him, however, that if the line of the railroad was brought so near Eton as the back of Salt-hill, it would be extremely difficult to make such arrangements as that the discipline of that celebrated seminary should not be affected. He might, perhaps, be told that no steps had been taken for making a rail-road from Basing to Southampton. If, however, their Lordships made up their minds that Bristol should be accommodated with a rail-road in that line, which it was his firm conviction was the most convenient that could be adopted, the impediments would easily be overcome. There was one other point with respect to this Great Western Rail-road to which he wished to advert, and with respect to which he thought many well-founded objections could be urged—the promoters of the Bill even admitted these objections—he alluded to the expensive line of steep tun- nelling in one part of the line of road. Having said thus much, he did not feel called upon to trouble the House at greater length. The noble Lord concluded by moving that the Report be taken into further consideration that day three months.

Lord Carbery

never felt more pain than at the observations which fell from his noble Friend with respect to those noble Lords who voted in the Committee for this Bill. He would only say, on that point, that although he might not have attended the Committee so constantly as his noble Friend, yet that the course which he had pursued he considered to be right, and the vote which he had given was conscientious. As an Irishman he felt great anxiety for the completion of a rail-way between Bristol and the metropolis, as he thought that his country would be benefitted by it. The question then was, which was the best line of road that could be adopted? They had been told that by proceeding with a rail-way from Basing to Bristol, instead of with the Great Western Rail-road, the expense of making forty-five miles of road would be saved. He did not think that the expense alone of constructing the railroad should be considered; but other points should also be taken into account. It had been found by experience, that a rail-way would not pay merely by the carriage of goods, but that the profit must be looked for by the conveyance of passengers. The question then was—whether they were likely to get a greater number of passengers on the Basing line of road or the northern line? After the best attention to the subject, and after a long investigation as to the state of the country and the population on the two lines of road, he had come to the conclusion that the northern line of road was much the best. He admitted that it appeared to be advantageous to the people of Bristol that they should have a direct communication with Southampton, but he felt satisfied they preferred the Great Western Rail-way, and surely the Bristol people were the best judges for themselves. They were fully competent to manage their own affairs, and could understand their own business better than any other person. His noble Friend had alluded to the long tunnel which it would be necessary to make if the line of road as laid down in the Bill was adopted; if it could be avoided certainly it would be desirable; but no long line of rail-way could be met with in which tunnelling did not occur. His noble Friend had complained of the descent in this tunnel; but the truth was it was not greater than that in the Lowther Arcade. Again, when a principal witness was asked which line of rail-way he preferred, he replied, that if they were to have a rail-way, let them have that through Reading. The Company agreed to all the suggestions that were made by the masters of Eton, except one, which was, that they should build up a wall ten feet high on each side of the rail-way for four miles. Only imagine a wall extending four miles across the country! What would the people say who lived at each side of this Chinese wall at being cut off from communicating with each other without going miles round. His noble Friend had also said, that it was desirable that the rail-road should terminate near the river; now he considered the proposed termination in this Bill just as convenient as any that could be adopted. He would only repeat that the vote he gave on the Committee was a conscientious vote.

The Duke of Buccleugh

, considered the Bill of great national importance. The observations just made by the noble Lord relative to the wall four miles long was calculated to mislead their Lordships. No doubt a proposition was made by the counsel for the masters of Eton School to build up a wall ten feet high and some miles in length, to prevent the boys getting on to the rail-road, but it never was seriously entertained for a single moment. The changes proposed, however, were likely to obviate the objections made by the authorities at Eton. It would have been an absurdity to suppose that a town like Windsor would have consented to be excluded from the benefits of the rail-road, as would have been the case if the wall had been built. With the noble Lord who had opposed the Bill, he saw very serious objections to the terminus proposed in it. The noble Lord had made some observations on noble Lords voting in the Committee who had not heard the evidence. It had been said that those noble Lords had read the evidence; but every body must know that there was a great deal of difference between reading the evidence and hearing it. With regard to the question, which of the two rail-roads was the preferable one, and the most likely to be a profitable speculation, he felt bound to say, that when he considered the amount of money requisite to complete the one or the other, and when he considered the amount of toll which was likely to be received upon each of them, the whole evidence taken upon those points led him to the conclusion that the Southampton line was the most likely to pay the expenses. There were other reasons which induced him to prefer the Basingstoke line to the line chosen for the Great Western Railway. The Western Railway did not come into London, but joined the Birmingham Rail-way about five miles from town; and the access to the port of London by that line was difficult, whereas the Southampton Rail-way had an easy and convenient access direct to the Thames, a little above Vauxhall-bridge. It had been said that rail-ways were not so much calculated for the conveyance of heavy goods as of passengers, and that the line of the Great Western Rail-way was much more likely to attract passengers. It appeared to him that both parties seemed to calculate upon about the same number of passengers, and certainly he had heard no evidence to show there would be any such enormous advantage in that respect in favour of the Great Western Rail-way to that which the Southampton Rail-way would have. Then it had been said there was this advantage in favour of the line of the Western Rail-way—that a branch line could be constructed from it to Stroud and Gloucester. But how did their Lordships know that that branch would ever be constructed? He had great doubts upon the subject, for it would require not only a great deal of money, but the work would be exceedingly difficult of execution. The advocates for this Bill had endeavoured to impress their Lordships with the idea that the question which they had to decide was, whether there was to be a rail-way between London and Bristol or no rail-way. That was not the fair way of stating the question. It did not by any means follow that if this Bill were thrown out, there would be no rail-way to Bristol, for there was another Bill before Parliament, the object of which was the construction of a rail-way from London through Basing to Bristol, of which forty-five miles was at this moment in the course of completion, and which would be completed very soon. Besides, the Western Rail-way line, if adopted, would interfere materially with many considerable residences, and destroy much valuable land. It was not true, however, as had been stated by the supporters of the Western Rail-way Bill, that it was the wish of the Southampton Railway Company to keep the whole traffic of Bristol and the profits to be derived from it in their own hands. So far, indeed, was that from being the case, that the Southampton Company had stated their willingness to give up to the Western Rail-way Company, the whole of the line from Basing to Bristol; to construct the railway between Basing and Bristol conjointly, and to share the profits equally. He felt bound to say that, in his opinion, the whole evidence taken before the Committee had not made out a case which ought to induce their Lordships to pass this Bill.

Lord Wharncliffe

had heard evidence in the Committee upon the subject of the Bill for forty-one days, besides having heard speeches of counsel, one of whom spoke for eleven hours, another for eight hours, and another for six hours. He had therefore heard quite sufficient of the subject, not to wish to detain their Lordships with any lengthened observations at present. There were a few points, however, which had been touched upon by the noble Lords who preceded him, which he felt that, as chairman of the Committee, he would not be doing his duty if he did not make a few remarks upon. The real truth was, that this was a contest—for contest it was—between two rival companies. Last year Parliament had passed an Act for making a railway between London and Southampton. In that case it was made out that there would be a profit upon the outlay of 20 per cent. But no sooner had that bill passed, than a prospectus was handed about with a proposition for making a railway between Basing (a small place near Basingstoke) and Bath, and ultimately to Bristol. That Bill was thrown out on the second reading. He had had some experience in railways, and he had never seen a scheme of this kind which was likely to be profitable, that was not supported by the people in the neighbourhood of the district through which it passed. It was natural that if the speculation was likely to be productive, persons along the line would be most likely to venture their money upon it. But in regard to the Bath and Basing line, it was not pretended that the people along the line had subscribed one shilling. Indeed, so far was that from being the case, that the greater part of the subscribers lived in Manchester, Liverpool, and other places. The people of Bristol thought the Western Railway line the most likely to pay, and they, therefore, supported it. It took in not only Bristol, but the whole country by Swindon to Cirencester, and so to South Wales. It took in all the great manufacturing districts in that part of the country, and the people of Bristol therefore supported it. With regard to the Southampton Railway, when the parties who wished to take that line showed that there would be a profit of 20 per cent, upon it, it behoved them also to show that there was some probability that the line between Basing and Bristol would be completed. Now what were the facts? The Southampton Railway Company brought a Bill into the other House of Parliament which had passed one reading, and had never been carried any further. The reason for this he would explain. It was a rule in the other House of Parliament that a Private Bill could not be read a second time unless one half of the capital required to carry it into effect were subscribed. Now in this case the capital required was 1,000,000l. while the whole amount subscribed was only 350,000l, and even that was subscribed not by persons along the line of the railroad—not by persons who had an interest in it further than as a speculation—but by people in Manchester and Liverpool. But besides this it was necessary that the consent of the proprietors along the Basing and Bristol line should be obtained; and who could say that they would not object to it? The Basing and Bath line had also another great interest to contend with, namely, the Avon Canal, which would most certainly oppose it. He might also mention that that line passed through a country which was certainly the least populous in the neighbourhood of the metropolis, whereas the Western Railway passed through Maidenhead, Windsor, Marlow, and a great number of other towns, which would certainly add greatly to the number of passengers who would travel by that line of conveyance. Something had been said in regard to the injury which the Western Railway would do to Eton. He really could not see how the passing of a railway at the distance of a mile and a half from the college could injure that establishment. It had been stated that it would give facility to the boys to go to London; that, in short, it brought Eton within ten miles of the metropolis, instead of being, as it was at present, twenty-one miles from it. But when it was considered that the boys had in the first place to walk a mile and a half to the railway, then to travel to London, and to be back again at Eton within an hour and a half, he did not think that they would have much time to occupy themselves in town. Besides, their Lordships were aware that Westminster school was still nearer, and Charterhouse was actually within the City, without any of the great evils so much dreaded in this case having arisen to them. He really could not see that there was any danger to be apprehended to Eton on account of this railway; but at all events, clauses had been inserted into the Bill, by which the Conpany were obliged to keep persons to watch within certain distances near Eton, and to prevent the boys from going on the railway. The real truth was, that the Southampton Company wished to have all the traffic to themselves, and felt that the railway had no chance of paying, unless it was carried forward to Bristol. But he thought that their Lordships would not consider that a sufficient reason for throwing out the Bill then before them, if upon other grounds the proposed line were considered better than that of the Southampton Company.

Lord Brougham

did not pretend to be a judge of the merits of the two lines of railway, for he had not attended the Committee, and he was, in fact, as ignorant of the evidence as the twelve noble Lords who, for the first time, had come down to the Committee when they came to give their votes. But what he wished to know from the noble Lord (Wharncliffe) was this:—The Committee having heard evidence for forty-one days, and then made up their minds upon that evidence, and certain noble Lords having attended the Committee during these forty-one days, and counsel having spoken, as was stated by the noble Lord—one for eleven hours, another for eight hours, and a third for six hours—he wished to know whether it was true that the Committee had come to the decision of adopting the Report which they had heard read, upon the votes of those who had heard the evidence and the counsel, or upon the votes of those who had not heard either the evidence or the counsel, but who came down in a good round dozen to vote upon the occasion, and who had no more right to know any thing of the matter than any of their Lordships. He did not mean to say that it was not quite legal for their Lordships to give their votes in that manner, for he was well aware that their Lordships were quite entitled to give their votes upon subjects of which they knew nothing. But he would ask if it was the intention, when Select Committees of their Lordships' House were appointed to examine into the evidence upon which a Bill was founded, that votes should be given in that manner? He had always thought that the meaning of proxies not being allowed upon Committees of their Lordships' House was this—that the Members of the Committee should attend the meetings to hear the evidence, and should judge by what they heard. He had an old-fashioned notion that those who judged upon evidence should hear the evidence. But that did not appear to be the system in their Lordships' Committees. He called it a mockery to say evidence should be called, and counsel heard upon a point, while those who were to decide upon it were riding in the parks or otherwise amusing themselves, and who then came down and voted without hearing one word of the evidence. And not only was it a mockery of justice, but it was an unnecessary trouble and a totally useless expense.

The Marquess of Londonderry

reminded the noble and learned Lord that on the previous night he had excused himself for having acceded to a measure because it had been recommended by a Committee in which he had confidence. He was a member of the Committee, and although he did not attend as closely as some other members, he was not unacquainted with the evidence. He supported the Bill before their Lordships, because it was of great importance to Ireland, and was likely to be highly beneficial to that country.

The Duke of Cumberland

said, that no man was more anxious to be of assistance to the city of Bristol, or to Ireland, than he was; and he hoped he should, therefore, not be misunderstood in the vote which he should that night give, to be hostile either to Bristol—a city to which he felt the utmost attachment—or to Ireland, for whose welfare and ad- vancement he was most anxious. But the opposition which he felt it his duty to make to this Bill proceeded from a conviction that the evidence which had been produced in respect to it before the Committee, had gone completely to cut up the grounds upon which the Bill rested. If a way could be made to Bristol which was equally short with that proposed by this Bill, and otherwise unobjectionable, he could not see why it should not be adopted. He had attended the Committee day after day, from the time of its being appointed, with the exception of one week, when he went to Cambridge, and he had carefully read the evidence taken during his absence, and upon that evidence his opinion was made up against this Bill. One of the chief objections, however, which he felt to the line of the Western Railway was its proximity to Eton. The consequence of its adoption, as he understood from some of the masters, was, that the whole system of discipline would necessarily be changed, and a much more contracted system adopted. It could not be supposed that in voting against the Bill he was unmindful or careless of the interests of Ireland, especially as an equally good railway could be obtained by the Southampton line. In these circumstances he felt bound to vote for the motion of the noble Baron, and he hoped in doing so his motive would not be misunderstood.

Lord Ashburton

should in general feel inclined to be led by the opinion of the Committee upon a subject of this kind. And in the present case he should have thought that course the safest were it not for the circumstance, that the conclusion to which the Committee had come did not appear to depend so much upon the evidence as upon the votes of those noble Lords who was absent when the evidence was given, and who came to the Committee merely for the purpose of voting. As to the Interest which Ireland had in the question, he could not see that it extended beyond this—that the best line should be adopted. Upon an attentive consideration of the subject, he had certainly come to the conclusion that the Basing line was the best line. That was his firm opinion. The question to be decided was, which was the best line for a railway between Bristol and London? Now, after hearing the opinions of the surveyors, and of many gentlemen who were well qualified, as well as from his own observation, upon the respective claims of the one line and of the other, he admitted that it might be a subject of considerable doubt which should have the preference; but when he found that for forty-five miles the two rail-roads could go together, he was certainly inclined to give his support for that which was already in progress, both on account of the great expense which would be saved, and on account of there not being so much cutting up of the country. He thought, too, that where there was but one railway the chance of its being kept in good order would be greater than if there were two. His impression was, that by having two Bills and two lines of railway, both lines would be badly kept. He was not very conversant with the usages of their Lordships' House, and, therefore, did not know whether it was customary to oppose the bringing up of a Report from a Select Committee; but considering the late period of the Session, he thought it would be as well to take the sense of the House upon the measure now as at a future stage of the Bill.

The Earl of Carysfort

was one of those who had taken a deep interest in the proceedings before the Committee, which he had very regularly attended. He did not believe that there were many noble Lords who were better acquainted with the line of country through which the railway was proposed to be carried than he happened to be. The city of Bristol was most importantly interested in this question; and from his connexion with that city he was most anxious to promote every measure that could be beneficial to it. But he must confess that it appeared to him the persons connected with the port of Bristol were quite mistaken in their speculations with respect to the formation of the Western Railway. He was of opinion that the Basing line would not only be more beneficial to the city of Bristol itself, but would also be so to Ireland, whose interests were so intimately connected with that port. With regard to this Report, he always felt disposed to place the utmost confidence in the reports made by Committees of their Lordships House, when those Committees were attended regularly by its members and full consideration was give n by them to the evidence adduced; but when a report was stated to have been carried by a majority of noble Lords, many of whom had never before attended the Committee, he confessed he could not give the Report that confidence which he should otherwise be disposed to do.

Lord Segrave

felt himself imperatively called on, in consequence of what had fallen from his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) and other noble Lords, to trouble their Lordships with one observation. It was true he did not attend the Committee for more than one day, and had the evidence before that Committee not been printed he should not have thought himself justified in giving a vote upon the subject, but as that evidence had been printed, and as he had read it carefully through, he did consider himself qualified to give a vote in the Committee on the subject. He did not attach so much importance to the speeches of counsel as his noble and learned Friend did, because it was well known that the object of counsel was to pervert and mystify the evidence brought forward on the opposite side, and to give a colouring to the evidence adduced by themselves. But having formed his conclusions from an attentive perusal of the evidence, and having been in constant communication with persons connected with Bristol, Stroud, and Gloucester, he felt himself justified in giving his vote in support of the Bill.

The Marquess of Clanricarde

did not attend the Committee more than twice, but having studied the evidence, he had felt himself bound to vote for the Bill in Committee.

The Earl of Carnarvon

could not refrain from expressing his feelings after what had fallen from the noble Lord and the noble Marquess. He would say, that he never was more astonished in his life than when he saw peers of England come down to a committee and vote in favour of a report upon a subject respecting which they had not heard one word of evidence, not one argument of counsel. It was not befitting conduct. He admitted that he spoke warmly; but what he meant to say was, that he had never known a similar instance of so many noble Lords voting on a Report who had not attended the previous proceedings of the Committee. He and other noble Lords had been engaged in a most laborious investigation for fifty days together, having given up all their pleasures and comforts for the purpose of coming to a fair and impartial decision upon a question involving interest? to a very great extent. After having done this, and having formed their opinions upon a careful consideration of the arguments of counsel and the evidence of witnesses, they found their judgments overruled by a majority of noble Lords, the greater part of whom had not heard any portion of that evidence, or a single argument for or against the measure. He did most deeply regret to see such conduct on the part of the nobility of England. He thought that if justice were to be administered in this manner it could not reflect on the character of the Peers any credit with the people out of doors. On the contrary, it was calculated to prejudice their character, when the people knew that noble Lords who had not heard any evidence on the subject had come down and decided a question in which millions were at stake.

The House divided on the question: For bringing up the Report, Contents 50; Not-Contents 28; Majority 22.