Lords Sitting of 19 August 1835

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Lord FITZGERALD and VESEY, from Ballino, against the Irish Corporation Bill.—By Lord LILFORD, Lord HATHERTON, and Viscount MELBOURNE, in favour of;—and by Lord FARNHAM, from Trim and Limerick, the Duke of BUCCLEUGH, Earls WINCHILSEA and BROWNLOW, from several Places,—against the Corporation Reform Bill.—By the Duke of WELLINGTON and the Earl of WINCHILSEA, from Dublin, against;—and by Viscount DUNCANNON, from two Places, in favour of the Irish Corporations' Bill.—By Lord SALTOUN and the Earl of VERULAM, from Thurso and St. Alban's,—against the Imprisonment for Debt Bill.—By the Earl of WINCHILSEA, from Killallen and Killeshandra, against Allowing Roman Catholics to Vote at Elections.—By the Duke of WELLINGTON, the Marquess of WESTMEATH, Earls BANDON, WINCHILSEA, WICKLOW, and HADDINGTON, Lords CARBERY and SKELMERSDALE, the Bishops of LONDON and of BATH and WELLS, from a Number of Places,—against the Irish Church Bill. By the Duke of BUCCLEUGH, from Bathgate, for Protection to the Scotch Church.

THE CHURCH (IRELAND).
Lord Carberypresented a Petition from the inhabitants of Bandon and its neighbourhood, in favour of protection to the Irish Church. The Church of Ireland had never had fair play before the period of the Legislative Union. Till then it was a political matter, not a matter of religion. The cathedral houses instead of being occupied by the clergy, who, by their conduct and character, might shed a lustre over the country, were hired out to tenants who would occupy them. That was not the case now. The clergy at present were as pious, as excellent, and as well conducted a body of men as could be met with anywhere. When he first went to reside in the county with which he was particularly connected, that was about forty years ago, there was a district where there were sixteen parishes, nine churches, and but three resident clergymen, now there were in that same district sixteen churches, and fifteen resident clergymen, and the sixteenth was incapable of residing, on account of ill health. It was of no use to have clergymen without giving them churches. Forty years ago there were but a few parish churches, and then of course the Protestant clergy laboured under great disadvantages. Since churches had been built for them or repaired, and they had had places in which to perform their duty, they had performed that duty with advantage to the people and honour to themselves. Who was it that visited the bed of the sick man, and administered religious consolation to him, who but the
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Protestant clergyman? It was to him, that the Roman Catholic peasant most looked for kindness and support, and consolation, and now that there was a resident clergy in Ireland, he looked to it to produce the happiest effects.
Petition laid on the Table.
The Bishop of Exeterbegged to move for a paper, to the production of which he believed there would be no objection. The noble Marquess, the President of the Council, had made a similar Motion on a previous occasion; and he had copied the form of that Motion, and inserted in it the papers he now wished to be produced. The noble Marquess's Motion was for a Return of the incomes of the parochial clergy of Ireland. His Motion was to have a Return of the same sort, but to confine the return to one diocese. The paper now before their Lordships was not useful, because it extended over too wide a space. He wanted specimens, from which they might see the nature of the incomes of the Irish clergy: he had, therefore, chosen the parishes in the small dioceses of Clonfert and Clogher. He moved for a Return of a calculation of the incomes of the clergy of those two dioceses before the Church Temporalities' Bill, after the Church Temporalities' Bill, and the probable amount of those incomes under the Bill now proposed.
Viscount Duncannonsaid, that there was no objection to the Return, if it could be obtained, but he doubted much, whether it could; and he begged also to observe, that the paper moved for by the noble Marquess, were those which were already on the Table of the other House of Parliament, which could be presented at once; but even if those now moved for could be obtained at all, it was quite clear, that they could not be obtained in time for the discussion of this Bill.
The Bishop of Exetersaid, that it was necessary that these papers should be obtained, and he must be excused if he persisted in his Motion.
The Earl of Wicklonhad understood, that there was no objection to the production of these papers.
Lord Hathertonsaid, that reference had been made to certain papers now on the Table of the House of Commons. He knew the way in which those Returns had been made, and perhaps he might be permitted to state it, in order to show the difficulty that would exist as to complying with the Motion of the right reverend

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Prelate. Those Returns had been made for the use of the Chief Secretary of Ireland; and having them in his possession, he thought that they might be useful in the House of Commons, and had, therefore, moved that they should be laid upon the Table, and then produced them himself. They were not Returns prepared by any known public officer, to whom the orders of this House could be directed, and therefore he suggested to the right reverend Prelate the propriety of not pressing the Motion, as he did not know the quarter to whom the order of the House could be issued to make a similar Return.
The Bishop of Exeterhad not sufficient confidence in the predictions of the noble Baron as to the difficulty of preparing the Returns to induce him to withdraw the Motion. He did not know what authority the noble Baron possessed to stop a Motion for papers when any Member of that House thought fit to make it. He thought, that it was rather premature of the noble Baron to foretel what could and what could not be done in the office of which he was not now a member. The proper officer to whom this order would be directed would know how to make the proper Return to it: and if the order could not be complied with, he should be the last man in that House to press any proceeding against the officer. But till such a Return was made, he must repeat, that it was premature in the noble Baron to attempt to stop the Motion in this way.
Lord Hathertonsaid, that he hardly thought the right reverend Prelate was justified in using the harsh tone and manner he had assumed on this occasion. He had never pretended to have any authority on the subject, nor had he interposed as if with authority to stop any Motion. He had merely mentioned from his own knowledge, a circumstance to show how difficult it would be to get such a Return as the right reverend Prelate wished for, and to say, that even if it could be obtained at all, he doubted whether it could be obtained in time for the approaching discussion. He repeated that doubt now, and begged to add, that the paper asked for, would require not a few days, but several weeks, to prepare it. He really had only meant to give the right reverend Prelate some useful information, and he begged again to offer it for the right reverend Prelate's consideration.
Viscount Duncannonhad said, not that he objected to the production of the paper
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required, but that he believed the paper could not be produced, if produced at all, without much delay. It was true, that a similar paper—not the same—had been laid on the Table of the other House of Parliament; but then the way in which it happened to get there, had been satisfactorily explained by his noble Friend.
The Bishop of Exetersaid, he must persevere in his Motion. The question was put.
The Marquess of Lansdownesaid, that he must beg to suggest to the right rever-and Prelate the insurmountable difficulty already alluded to by his noble Friend. Where no office existed, bound to furnish any particular kind of document, it was impossible to make an order for the production of such documents. He really could not see how the order could be issued, or to whom it could be directed.
Return ordered.
The Duke of Cumberlandpresented a Petition signed by seventy-three of the senior and junior fellows and scholars of the University of Dublin, for protection to the Established Church of Ireland. The petitioners expressed their hope that their Lordships would see, as they did, the danger with which that Church was threatened in that Bill which had now come from the other House of Parliament, and which they were to take into consideration to-morrow. He moved, that the petition be read. It was read, and he then added, that he concurred most completely in the prayer of it.
Lord Plunkettthought it necessary to make a few observations upon this petition. Their Lordships might perhaps be aware, that the governing body of Trinity College, Dublin, was limited to a small number of persons, and that to them alone appertained the right of affixing to any document the corporate seal of the University, The seven Senior Fellows, Provost, and Under-Provost, formed the governing body of the University. He had reason to know, that an attempt had been made—a most injudicious attempt, as he thought—to procure from the Senior Fellows and the governing body a petition similar to that which had now been presented. The persons, however, who presided over the University, had the prudence and the good sense to decline becoming parties to any such proceeding. The majority of the Senior Fellows, too, had been averse to the proceeding. It was true, that this was a Protestant University; but it was

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also true, that it was part of a system of national education; and one of the great advantages derived from this latter circumstance bad been, that till a very late period the Roman Catholics of the country educated at the College had lived in harmony with the Protestants, and that those quarrels which unhappily had disturbed the peace of the country at large had not intruded themselves within the walls of the University. He considered it deeply to be regretted, that any change should have taken place in that matter. He could not omit taking advantage of this opportunity to bear his testimony to the good sense of the governing part of the College, and to express his regret that an appeal, as it were, had been established from them to the Junior Fellows, amongst whom, he was sorry to say, there had been latterly manifested a spirit, which, until now, had not been known to belong to them. He was sorry to say, that lately politics had been introduced among them, not to the advantage of literature; and a bigoted feeling was admitted, and secret associations, Orange lodges, had been introduced, productive of almost as much mischief as the same things had produced in Other parts of the country.
The Duke of Cumberlandhad never before heard one word of the attempt alluded to; at the same time he must be permitted to say, that he should be extremely surprised if any Members of the University, feeling, as they ought to do, the danger with which the property of the Church was now threatened, had not manfully come forward in support of that religion which they were bound to defend. In so far, therefore, he differed from the noble and learned Lord. He did not mean to say, that there should be anything to create quarrels and feuds in the University; but when a great question like this arose, in which the Protestant religion was interested, and the property of the Protestant Church was to be taken away, so that the Protestant religion was not to e propagated in the way it had been, he must Say it was the bounden duty of every Protestant to come forward. With respect to Orange Lodges, he knew not whether there were any in the University. He could most positively say, that he had never countenanced Orange Lodges in the University of Dublin. He knew, that he had often been attacked for that, but he cared not for these attacks, for he declared positively, that he had never countenanced
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any Orange Lodges in any place where orders had been given by the proper authorities, that they should not be held. He stated this openly, and he cared not what was said about it.
The Earl of Wicklowhad been much surprised to hear a Protestant Lord Chancellor, in a Protestant country, under a Protestant King, declare his regret that a Protestant University should petition this House in favour of the Protestant Church. The noble and learned Lord had said, that recently there had been a want of unanimity in the University; that might be the case, but he had omitted to state from what period it was that these disagreements had arisen. Had it been from the passing of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill—had that been the cause of them? If that had not been the cause, had they arisen from the coming in of the present Ministers, who in all their measures had declared that their object was to promote the unanimity of all classes in the country? He feared that this want of unanimity and these disagreements had arisen from the mal-administration with which the Government was carried on, and that that had sown these seeds of dissension, and it was rather extraordinary that an individual who was a supporter of the Government, who had aided in these measures, should be the person to state that these disagreements were of recent occurrence. He had several petitions to present similar to that which had just been presented by the illustrious Duke, all praying for protection to the Church, and expressing a hope that their Lordships would not consent to adopt two enactments in the Bill, one for the sequestration of livings, and the other for the transfer, to secular purposes, of any part of the ecclesiastical revenues. Some few came from his own county, and contained, besides, a prayer that was in some measure connected with the same matter—namely, that the qualification of persons entitled to vote for Members of Parliament might be raised, for it was now so low that the electors were often a class of men who were not sensible of the obligations of an oath, and who returned persons to Parliament who did not represent the wishes of the country, and who ought not to find an entrance into the House of Commons.
Petition laid on the Table.

CORPORATION REFORM.
Viscount Melbournepresented a Petition from Bury, in Lancashire, in favour of the Municipal

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Corporations' Bill. The noble Viscount stated that he had in his hand a letter from Mr. Wilkinson, one of the Corporation Commissioners, written from Newcastle, of which place the learned Gentleman was Recorder, stating that he had only received on Saturday last the official Report of the evidence taken at the Bar of their Lordships' House, and denying, so far as he was concerned, the statements made in that evidence, and justifying the Report he had made.
The Duke of Clevelandsaid, that he took that opportunity of stating that the learned Gentleman had long been known to him, and that a more just and honourable man, and one more able and fitted for the situation he occupied could not anywhere be found.
Lord Teynham, on bringing up the Report of the Committee, would move that the amendment adopted upon the 25th clause, and requiring a property qualification in the Town Councillors should be abrogated, and that the Bill should be restored to its original state. He was sure that this ought to be done. The Corporation Reform Bill was the first fruits of the Reform Act, and the people were entitled to it. As a proof of the Spirit in which the people had received their Lordships' amendments, he might mention that at a public meeting at Birmingham, consisting of 10,000 people, with the High Bailiff in the chair, it had been deliberately resolved not again to address their Lordships' House by way of petition. Petition laid on the table.

THE NEW HOUSE OF PARLIAMENT.
The Earl of Wicklowbegged to ask the noble Viscount opposite (Lord Duncannon) whether any steps had been taken towards preparing a more convenient House for their Lordships before next Session?
Lord Duncannonsaid, that since the question had last been before the House, the other House had voted a sum to defray the expense of a temporary building for their Lordships' accommodation. Since that time he had had many communications with several of the architects upon the subject. He expected shortly to be able to give instructions whether the building should be proceeded with or not. Meantime he might state that Sir Robert Smirke had given in his estimate under the impression that the building should be proceeded with at once, whereas now the greater part of the building season had passed, and
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the estimate for building, during the short days, would be necessarily higher.
The Duke of Richmondsuggested to their Lordships that it was really not worth while to go to the expense of building a temporary House. It was true, that the present House was inconvenient, but the other might be equally so. He was fully sensible of the liberality with which the House of Commons had come forward, on ascertaining that their Lordships were inconvenienced in their present place of meeting, but he hoped that their Lordships would not avail themselves of the offer made, but would continue to occupy the present House until a permanent one was built.
Lord Duncannonthought the best way would be to re-appoint the Committee, and refer the whole matter to it. He would therefore move that a Select Committee be appointed to consider the Report upon any plan submitted to it for the erection of a temporary House of Lords.
The Marquess of Lansdownestated, that in the event of a temporary House not being built for the accommodation of their Lordships, there was an understanding that as the other House was better provided with accommodation than their Lordships, a preference should be given to their Lordships' House, and it should be first built.
Motion agreed to.

MILITIA STAFF REDUCTION BILL.
Viscount Melbournemoved that the House resolve itself into a Committee upon this Bill.
The Duke of Wellingtondid not mean to oppose the Bill, as he felt that it would be useless to send it back to the other House; at the same time he thought that the militia staff ought to be remodelled, and put on an efficient footing, especially considering the good services which they performed in 1830. He was willing to co-operate with his Majesty's Government in forming an efficient permanent system of militia.
The Earl of Westmorelandopposed the Bill, on the ground that it would lead to the absolute destruction of the militia. He recommended the omission of all the compulsory clauses; leaving it to his Majesty's Ministers to make such reductions as they thought fit. When the proper time arrived, he would move an amendment to that effect.
The Duke of Richmondentirely concurred with what had fallen from the noble

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Duke (Wellington), whose victorious troops had been frequently recruited from the ranks of the militia. He could only consent to vote for the Bill on the understanding that Ministers would bring in another measure next Session to render the militia effective. If the Government had found that the Colonels of Militia had misconducted themselves in allowing their troops to be used for jobbing purposes, or to remain inefficient, he would advise them to recommend their immediate dismissal to his Majesty.
The Duke of Cumberlandeulogized the Militia, than whom a finer or better regulated body of men never existed. He hoped Government would come forward next year with some measure to re-establish the force.
The Earl of Glengallhoped the Bill would be withdrawn, and a complete general measure brought in next year.
Lord Teynhamwas of opinion with the noble Duke (Richmond) that the Militia should be made an efficient and an available force.
The Earl of Wicklowexpressed his regret that his Majesty's Ministers should have brought forward, at so late a period of the Session, a measure which would have the effect of discouraging a most useful force.
The Marquess of Salisburycalled upon the noble Lords opposite to state, as the advisers of his Majesty, that they did not intend to destroy the Militia, but to increase its efficiency.
Viscount Melbourne: The noble Marquess called upon him to answer the call he pleased to make, and to say so and so which he dictated. He certainly should say nothing of the kind; he had said in the Committee, and he repeated it now, that in his opinion the Militia should be sustained; he had said it should be supported; he had said it should be improved; he had said it should be ameliorated to render it more efficient for its purpose; but he had distinctly said also, that he did not pledge himself to maintain the Militia Staff in the manner in which it had been heretofore maintained in this country. This was consistent with his declaration in that House, that he considered it bad policy that at the end of the war it should have been preserved in the form it had then been, and in which it had ever since remained. The men who were to be discharged without pensions were to receive six months' pay: those who preferred a claim to pensions
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were to receive three months' pay, which would support them during the consideration of their respective cases; and those who were considered entitled to pensions would, in compliance with the usual mode of proceeding, receive three months' pension in advance.
The Bill was read, the clauses agreed to, and the House resumed.