Lord BroughamMy Lords, I have a Petition to present, from the town of Marsden, in favour of the Corporation Reform Bill. I have a similar petition from the great district—the great metropolitan borough of Lambeth—agreed upon, I understand, at one of the most numerous, most respectable, and most unanimous meetings ever held in that district, It is signed by 2,260 persons, and received these signatures in the course of a very few hours. It would have been signed by a great many more persons, but the petitioners considered that the number who attended the meeting precluded the necessity of waiting for that purpose. I have also to present two petitions from the town of Leicester, agreed upon at a public meeting, and signed in the course of ten or twelve hours by no less than 9,500 persons; clearly showing the strong feeling which exists in that district of the country, and completely contradicting the evidence of some of the witnesses who seemed to infer that it was not, and is not, very much called for, except by a factious rabble. I, my Lords, do not quite go along with the petitioners in some of the expressions they use, which certainly are 323 rather strong. The petitioners state that the Municipal Corporations' Bill was passed in the other House of Parliament almost without opposition, and that your Lordships' determination to hear counsel at the Bar upon it, seems to imply that your Lordships' are unable as legislators, to cope with such a subject, and thus to have a tendency "to lower and degrade your right honourable House yet more in the estimation of the people."—[Cries of "Order, order," and great confusion.]
The Duke of NewcastleMy Lords, I think the noble and learned Lord has read quite enough of that petition.
Lord BroughamI differ from your Grace on that subject, for I mean to read the whole of it. I did not mean to have read it, inasmuch as I feel considerable respect and veneration for your Lordships' House; but I shall read it all now. Your Lordships owe it entirely to his Grace. Save us from our friends! say you; but as the noble Duke has interrupted me, I shall beg to read the petition at length, even at the risk of its preventing me from taking part in the debate of the night. The petitioners state, "That it is with feelings of the deepest regret that your petitioners mark the proceedings of your right hon. House respecting the Municipal Corporation Reform Bill—a Bill introduced into Parliament by his Majesty's Ministers, and which has passed the Commons House of Parliament, almost without opposition. They cannot consider the determination of your right hon. House to hear counsel against the principle of the Bill, involving as it does a great and extensive legislative measure, otherwise than as a confession of the inability of your right hon. House, as legislators, to cope with such a subject without foreign aid, and thus to lower and degrade your right hon. House yet more in the estimation of the people. That the insulting and abusive language reported to have been used by counsel respecting the people, at the Bar of your Lordships' House, not only unrestrained, but apparently with the approbation of certain noble Lords, excites in the minds of your petitioners"—you see the difficulty of stopping me in this—no, I had rather not go on without just explaining how much more satisfactory it is for me to read the petition, and how anxious I am to satisfy the noble Duke. You may think you see that what I have read is wrong, but you cannot tell 324 that what I am going to read is not perfectly right.
The Earl of WicklowMy Lords—[Cries of "Order!"]—my Lords, I beg to say that as soon as the noble and learned Lord has read that petition, I shall move that it be rejected—["Order!"]
Lord BroughamReally, my Lords, this is by much the most irregular thing I ever saw even in this place, which, of all the irregular places I ever saw, is by far the most irregular. The noble Earl sees the folly of interrupting me. I forget where I am now, and am half afraid I shall have to begin again. Oh, here it is—"the approbation of certain noble Lords excites in the minds of your petitioners feelings of indignation and disgust, still further increased by the reception of the ex-parte evidence of the very men who are most intimately mixed up with all those corporate transactions of which the people so justly complain, and who notoriously profit by the abuses which they uphold. That it is the opinion of your petitioners, in opposition to the representations which have been made to your right hon. House, that the conduct of the Commissioners of Corporate Inquiry in this town (Leicester)—Mr. Whitcombe, and Mr. Cockburn—in the discharge of their important duties, was exemplary in every particular; that it was marked by gentlemanlike demeanor, calmness of deportment, and a readiness to receive evidence from all persons; and that the Report they have furnished respecting this Corporation, is, in the judgment of your petitioners, correct in all essentials, and as accurate as possible in so wide a field of inquiry, and amidst such a conflicting mass of evidence. Your petitioners also beg, to assure your right hon. House that, contrary to the evidence given at your Bar, the conduct of the inhabitants of this town during the course of the examination at the Castle, was orderly and decorous; and that whatever excitement existed in the minds of the spectators, was kept within decent bounds. Your petitioners therefore beg, in the fullest manner, to confirm the statements made by the Commissioners with respect to the conduct of the people. They assert that the representations put forth to the contrary are false and calumnious, and that nothing can be further from the truth than that any individual could be deterred from giving evidence by feelings of intimidation or personal fear. 325 In imploring your right hon. House to pass this Bill, your petitioners think that they ask a measure only of common justice; they seek not spoliation, as has been calumniously said, but restoration. They require, that property, which for so many hundred years was applied strictly to public purposes, should so be applied again. They demand, and justly demand, that an unlimited and irresponsible power of taxing and spending, such as even the Parliament of the United Kingdom does not claim, shall not be confided to persons in whom your petitioners have no trust, no confidence whatever; and that justice, impartial justice, the first and most important attribute of all the attributes of Government, should be placed within the reach of every individual. That to acquire this just, this holy object, the inhabitants of this town will never cease to exert every lawful means in their power, and that they will never admit, that the assumed privileges of a few individuals ought to stand in the way of the just rights, of the contentment, of the prosperity and happiness, of a great and intelligent people. Your petitioners, therefore, implore your right hon. House to dismiss from your minds all those unfavourable impressions against the people of this town, which may have arisen from the representations of their inveterate enemies at the Bar of your right hon. House; and that your Lordships will forthwith pass the Bill in such integrity as to give satisfaction to the people of these realms." This, my Lords, as I have already said, is the petition of the town of Leicester, signed within a few hours, by 9,500 inhabitants of that great town. I do not perceive, my Lords, that the word "Humble" is used by these petitioners, nor does it set out with the usual form of "Humbly showeth." But whether your Lordships may not be disposed to consider that the word "Imploring"—which is at least a very effective word, and one expressive of humility—is a sufficient compliance with what we know to be one of the standing orders of the House, is more than I, unexperienced as I am in the forms of your Lordships' House, can take upon myself to say. His Lordship moved that the petition be received.
The Duke of Newcastleregretted having interrupted the noble and learned Lord, because he should be sorry to deprive him of any opportunity of showing 326 an insult to that House. For the noble and learned Lord to indulge in this kind of sneer, and invective, and unbecoming sarcasm, was, he really thought, beneath him, and excessively insulting to the dignity of their Lordships' House. He repeated, it was very insulting for the noble and learned Lord to use the language with which he attempted to flagellate that House. It was nothing less than pandering to the very coarsest passions and worst feelings of the lowest class of the community.
Lord BroughamReally, my Lords, I am not aware that I have used any one expression affecting your Lordships' House—except, indeed, stating my respect and veneration for it. I am not aware, I say again, my Lords, of any one word I have used which can be objected to by any one Member of this House. But the noble Duke objects to my reading the petition, as if I were taking an opportunity of offering disrespect to your Lordships. Why if I wished to cast any disrespect on your Lordships, I should show that disrespect in my own proper person, which the noble Duke, to do him justice, gives me credit for wishing an opportunity to do. I have yet to learn, my Lords, that any Member of Parliament, in the discharge of his duty of presenting the petitions of the people, is at all to blame in bringing any petition forward; it being the right of the subject to petition Parliament—it being the right of your Lordships to reject that petition if you please. Now observe how the case stands—just observe. If I had given in this petition—as I very naturally might have wished to do, for I want to come to the business of the evening—if I had given in this petition, and merely said, "Petition in favour of the Bill, town of Leicester," some noble Lord would have looked at the petition to-night, or to-morrow morning, and then he would have found out that I had presented a petition without notice, containing expressions, I have no hesitation in saying, of a strong nature; and I should have been immediately told that I was bound to make your Lordships aware of the nature of those expressions. Well, then, I say, I was bound to read the petition. [The Earl of Wicklow: No.] The noble Lord thinks I was not bound to read it. Well, then, I shall just judge for myself; make up my own mind, act on my own behalf, and read the petition or 327 not read it, as I please, I have a right to make any motion that I please. The motion that I made was, that the petition be received, and any noble Lord can vote for or against that motion as he thinks proper, exercising just the same discretion and freedom that I reserve for myself.
The Earl of WicklowIf it were one of their Lordships rules not to receive disrespectful petitions, they could not receive the present. The noble Lord was bound to read the petition before offering it to their Lordships, and seeing that it contained expressions offensive and insulting to the House, he should have told the petitioners that such an insulting petition would not be received. He begged to move that the petition be rejected.
The Earl of Falmouthreminded their Lordships that they were in the habit of protecting, not only their own House but the other House of Parliament, from disrespect. When he himself presented a petition the other day from the borough of Evesham which contained a passage stating that the majority of the other House was composed of Papists and others not in connexion with the Church of England, it was alleged by noble Lords opposite to be offensive to the other House, and he immediately withdrew the petition on these grounds, and on these grounds only. Therefore, on account of the generally disrespectful and insulting language contained in the present petition, he should support his noble Friend's objection to its reception.
Lord BroughamThe noble Earl has an undoubted right to move the rejection of, and your Lordships have a perfect right to reject, any petition you please—of the exercise of that right I do not complain. But I say, my Lords, it is to me a most extraordinary position, that a noble Lord, receiving a petition signed by ten or eleven thousand of his fellow-citizens, is to reject that petition at once, because the petitioners choose to blame the conduct of the House of Lords. I am not aware that this House is likely to raise itself in the estimation of its fellow-countrymen by claiming for itself a privilege and a freedom which no human beings have a right to claim—that of being exempt from a free expression of disapprobation. Men may differ as to whether the expression of disapprobation is respectful or disrespectful; and if your Lordships think that this is a disrespectful expression of 328 disapprobation, it is for you to reject the petition.
The Earl of Wicklowhad moved the rejection of the petition on the ground of its being a highly disrespectful one. He knew that the public had a right to blame their Lordships in a respectful manner, but not in a disrespectful, sneering, and insulting tone.
§ The Duke of Wellingtonentreated their Lordships not to weigh too nicely the wording of petitions, or the expressions of the petitioners. He was very much disposed to think that no such disrespectful language as the present petition contained was calculated to do their Lordships much injury. He must say, however, that when the attention of the House was drawn in so particular a manner by the noble and learned Lord to those particular expressions, when the noble and learned Lord commented upon them as he had done; when in this particular petition, moreover, there was the omission of a word required to be introduced into all petitions presented to the House, and when the noble and learned Lord was aware of that fact—
Lord BroughamI beg the noble Duke's pardon. I will at once withdraw the petition. The doctrine is a most sound, and a most judicious, and a most sensible one, not only for this House, but for every individual in it to adopt; they should not weigh too nicely the expressions used by petitioners.
The Earl of WicklowI beg to assure the noble and learned Lord, that if he had not withdrawn the petition, I would certainly have taken the sense of the House.
Lord BroughamAnd very probably you would have carried it away with you.
The petition was withdrawn.
Lord Broughampresented a Petition from Mr. Cockburn, one of the Commissioners, against whom the principal charges of the Counsel at the Bar had been directed. Mr. Whitcombe, his brother Commissioner, was unfortunately dead, but he pledged himself, with their Lordships' permission, to rebut by five or six witnesses at the Bar, the whole of the charges made against him by interested parties. As he had not moved their Lordships to hear the petitioner in the Bristol case, he felt that he could not make an exception in the case of this gentleman, who with his deceased colleague had been so directly attacked, and it was therefore his painful duty to advise their Lordships not to grant 329 the prayer of the petitioner, which was, of course, to be heard at the Bar. The noble and learned Lord then proceeded to state the substance of the petition. The petitioner represented that he had entered upon the charge committed to him with a deep and anxious sense of its responsibility, and that in performing it he had discharged his duty to the best of his humble ability and knowledge, faithfully, fearlessly, and conscientiously; that in conjunction with his deceased colleague he had inquired into the corporations of Coventry and Leicester; that he had perused with extreme astonishment the evidence given with reference to those corporations; and that he and his deceased colleague had extended the same just and impartial spirit to every corporation that had formed the subject of their inquiry, without reference to political principles, in proof of which he referred to the corporations of Nottingham and Derby on the one hand, and Shrewsbury and Tamworth on the other.
The petition was read, and laid on the Table.
The Duke of Newcastlethen rose to complain of the manner in which these petitions in support of the Bill were got up; and objected to the Government participating in the agitation that was now going on in the country upon the subject. He had a peculiar regard for the noble Viscount, at the head of his Majesty's Councils, and he would take leave to suggest to the noble Viscount, seeing as he (the noble Duke) did, the treasonable conspiracy that was carrying on in this country against the Church and State, whether it would not be wise for him to withdraw himself from a Government which might be dragged into that conspiracy, which he believed the noble Viscount and many other members of the Government would wish to avoid. He feared that there were some persons who would drag the Ministers of the Crown into the commission of deeds and acts which they would repent. Connected with all this he saw language in the public papers—what he was going to say was matter of fact—he had seen it stated that in a certain place there had been remarks made calculated to injure, in the greatest degree, the Church and the State; and he had also seen it reported that certain persons had, in another place, endeavoured to vilify Members even of their Lordships' House. He particularly alluded to some most atrocious remarks made last night in 330 a certain place. Those remarks he thought were of such a character as to deserve the most unqualified censure, and marks of displeasure from this House. He alluded to a speech made by a person elsewhere.
§ Lord Wharnclifferose to order. He really must appeal to his noble Friend, whether it was consistent with the dignity of their proceedings to refer to speeches made in the other House of Parliament; for, after all, disguise it as they might, by the term "another place," all mankind must understand what place was meant. He hoped, therefore, this irregular discussion would not be continued.
The Duke of NewcastleThese speeches ought to be checked. [A Noble Lord: Checked!] Yes, checked; I certainly will speak my opinion of such speeches, wherever I may be. The noble Duke then proceeded to say that the speech to which he alluded mentioned something about an Illustrious Personage very nearly connected with the Throne. Things were said respecting that Illustrious Personage which ["Order, order!"] "If it be the opinion of your Lordships that I ought not to proceed, I will bow to that opinion and sit down" [the noble Duke resumed his seat.]