Lords Sitting of 9 August 1835

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Lord BRODGHAM, from Inhabitants of Bristol, to be heard at the Bar to rebut the Evidence against the Corporation Bill; and by the Duke of WELLINGTON, from the Corporation of Colchester, to be heard by Counsel at the Bar against the Bill; and also from Monimail, for further Church Accommodation in Scotland.

CORPORATION REFORM.
Counsel and evidence having been again heard and withdrawn,—
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, he was desirous without stating one word as to the effect which the evidence had on his mind, of asking those noble Lords who had voted for the hearing of counsel and receiving of evidence, whether their object had not been sufficiently attained by the examination of the witnesses whose testimony had been already given, and whether these proceedings might not be now brought to a close? It appeared to him, considering the present advanced state of the Session, and the business which would in all probability be brought before their Lordships, that it would be desirable, unless their Lordships thought it absolutely necessary to hear further evidence, that they should now put an end to these proceedings. With this view he begged to move "That the evidence on the Corporation Bill be now closed."
Lord Broughamheld in his hand a petition, the contents of which might perhaps throw some light on the question before their Lordships. It was signed by an immense body of respectable persons in the city of Bristol, and it set forth a very distinct and particular answer to the various matters which appeared, as alleged, against them at the Bar of that House. They expressed their confidence that they should be able to rebut everything which had been asserted against them; and they prayed to be heard by counsel and witnesses in their own vindication, and in furtherance of the objects of the Bill, which they earnestly prayed might pass

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into a law. He said he had consented to present this petition; and though he had the greatest respect for the individuals whose names were appended to it, yet undoubtedly he should be the last person to ask their Lordships to permit (nor did he himself think it feasible to allow) that they should be heard by either counsel or witnesses. He thought it would be better to take another course, one which was called for at this particular period—one which would not weaken the justice of their case, and which he felt he might add would be more conformable to the general wishes of their Lordships, and that was, that instead of asking them to comply with the prayer of this petition he should simply ask (not on that day, but on some fitting occasion) to be allowed to read at length this petition. This was almost a matter of right; and, by granting it to these petitioners, they would have the bene6t of putting on record their answer to the charges which had been preferred against them. The reason he chose this course was, because he knew there were many more persons similarly situated, and equally anxious to have their allegations sustained by evidence at the Bar. Indeed, he was himself aware that half a dozen places were preparing petitions exactly to the same effect; and he was, therefore, unwilling that the door should be opened in this case by the hearing of evidence; because, if it were, it could not be shut with regard to other cases. His anxiety, then, for the further procedure of this most important measure, and his wish not to detain their Lordships for an unreasonable, and he might say, an indefinite length of time, were his only reasons for not pressing upon their consideration the prayer of these petitioners.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, that it was extremely desirable that the evidence should close; but he could not agree with his noble Friend as to the precise terms of his Motion. He could not see how their Lordships, consistently with their own order, could refuse to hear any further evidence which might be tendered against the Bill, or on behalf of the accused Corporations. A Resolution might, however, be adopted by their Lordships, that several parts of the Bill had been sufficiently elucidated by the evidence heard at the Bar of the House against them. He thought their Lordships could not be more enlightened on the subject than they were.
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He merely intimated this opinion as to the course most proper to be pursued on a matter of such extreme importance, without venturing to shape any tangible motion on the subject. He agreed fully with the substance of his noble Friend's Motion; but he did not think it was precisely what it should be in point of form.
The Earl of Wicklowhad framed his Motion for the purpose of avoiding the objections which his noble Friend had started, for fear it would, if otherwise shaped, lead to a discussion on the whole case so desirable, at present, to be avoided.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that the most parliamentary course to pursue, if their Lordships thought they had heard sufficient evidence, would be to direct Counsel to withdraw, and then to proceed with the Bill, without coming to any previous Resolution whatever.
Lord Broughamsaid, if the course wisely suggested by the noble Duke were adopted, their Lordships would never have another application to hear further evidence.
The Earl of Falmouthsaid, that if corporators living at a distance, and not having had time to prepare their cases, and collect and send up their witnesses, were to be excluded altogether from a hearing before their Lordships it would be a very great hardship indeed. He apprehended that from the tenor of their Lordships' order, if Counsel insisted on their witnesses being heard, they had a right to a hearing, as far as they could have any right in opposition to the wishes of their Lordships. He held a statement in his hand complaining of the gross mis-statements of the Commissioners in the case of one borough—the borough of Truro. The corporation of that borough were twenty-four in number—all gentlemen of no common order, who had spent their lives in the town, many of them being of great age, and who had for a long series of years unremittingly devoted themselves to its best interests. They now, however, found themselves, grossly libelled in the Report of the Commissioners for that borough, and accused of mismanagement of the Corporate Funds, of perversion of charitable trusts, and of other acts of a similar nature. In several other ways they were assailed by the grossest mis-statements, every one of which they were

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ready, and fully able, to disprove at their Lordships' Bar. If they were not to be heard in justification after such attacks he thought it would be a very great injury done to them. Believing, however, that their Lordships were incapable of that, and knowing at the same time how desirous their Lordships were of coming to a speedy conclusion on the Bill, by putting a stop to further evidence, and concurring entirely in that respect with their Lordships, he should not hesitate to bow to their decision, conditionally, that, if circumstances should arise to demand it, he should have the privilege of examining witnesses on the part of these gentlemen. He thought it was much too hard that gentlemen, honourable and zealous during their whole life-time for the prosperity of the town, should go down to posterity with a stigma on their characters.
The Earl of Carnarvonsaid it was of the highest importance to proceed as rapidly as possible with the business of the Session. Of the petitions which were presented to their Lordships, praying to be heard by Counsel, there were only two remaining undisposed of. He, therefore, thought it advisable to stop where they were; and the best mode of effecting that end would be to adopt the proposition of the Noble Duke. He did not deem it necessary to hear further evidence, because he believed that no change could be wrought in the impression produced in the minds of their Lordships by what they had already heard.
The Earl of Wicklowhad no desire to press his Motion, and he should, therefore, withdraw it. The course suggested by the Noble Duke was the more Parliamentary and regular one; and he (the Earl of Wicklow) should, therefore, willingly give way to it. He had made the Motion in the presence of Counsel, for the object of putting them in possession of their Lordships' sentiments on the subject, to the end that they might be spared further trouble, and their clients further expense.
Viscount Melbournesaid, that as it was the opinion of the House the Bill should be gone on with, he was disposed to proceed to the Order of the Day in that respect as quickly as possible. He had received petitions from various parts of the country in favour of the Bill, and contradictory of the statements made by witnesses examined before their Lordships. He had one in particular from Manchester, signed
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by a great number of persons; and another (from a place, the name of which we could not learn) having equally numerous signatures. They contained counter-statements to the evidence taken at the Bar, and he would present them on Monday.
Bill to be committed on Wednesday.