Lords Sitting of 7 August 1835

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a third time:—On the Motion of Lord BROUGHAM:—Certiorari.
Petitions presented. By the Marquess of SALISBURY, from Hertford, against the Municipal Corporations' Bill.—By Earl of TANKERVILLE, from the Agriculturists of Bamborough, for Relief.—By Lord BROUGHAM, from Witham, for the Repeal of the Duty on Newspaper Stamps.—By the Earl of TANKERVILLE, from Saffron Walden; and Lord ELLENBOROUGH, from Daventry, against the Municipal Corporations' Bill.

CORPORATION REFORM.
Evidence was again taken on the Corporation Reform Bill, and after all that was tendered had been taken,
The Marquess of Salisburyrequested to know what period their Lordships were disposed to assign to the present proceeding. It seemed that the Counsel were not prepared with any other case for this evening, although they were in expectation of a vast number of new cases by the mail to-morrow. The great object according to his view of the case, in examining witnesses, was to see whether the allegations in the Report were well founded; and upon that point he believed they were all now pretty well satisfied. After the numerous cases which had been adduced, and the direct contradictions to the Report which had been proved, it was in his view hardly worth while to persevere much, further in the inquiry, unless they meant to go through the whole list of petitions.
Lord Lyndhurstsaid, it was not for the purpose of entertaining new cases that the learned Counsel wished to postpone further proceedings till to-morrow; it was to allow witnesses who had not yet arrived fro he country to give evidence in cases which their Lordships had already determined to hear.
Lord Broughamconcurred in the opinion, that sufficient evidence had been

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adduced, although he differed from the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) with respect to the conclusion to be drawn from it as to the credibility of the Report. If, however, the noble Marquess would move, that the evidence be now closed, he (Lord Brougham) would willingly second the Motion.
The Earl of Falmouthbegged leave to remind their Lordships, that it was only on Tuesday morning they had decided on hearing evidence; and from the great distance they had to send in some instances, it was not to be wondered at that all the witnesses had not yet been forthcoming. After the vote they had come to, it was absolutely necessary that they should allow those parties who were accused by this Report, a certain fair and reasonable time to justify themselves. Beyond that, he believed, Counsel had no desire whatever to go.
Lord Broughamcomplained, that Counsel had not adopted his suggestion in the forenoon. Had they done so, and continued sitting without adjournment from four to six, they would have reached the present stage by seven o'clock. He had a presentiment that the source of evidence would be running dry before nine o'clock, and since that hour his presentiment had been realized.
The Marquess of Salisburythought, that sufficient evidence had been produced to prevent their Lordships placing implicit reliance on the Report; and if the House did come to a Resolution to that effect, it would be perfectly unnecessary to give the parties further time in order to enable some other boroughs to defend themselves, the accusations against them having been virtually withdrawn.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, there was another consideration which it was important for their Lordships to bear in mind on the present occasion; he alluded to the advanced period of the Session of of Parliament. It being absolutely necessary that this Bill should be taken into consideration and decided on by their Lordships as speedily as possible, he entreated them not to spend their time in hearing further evidence than was requisite, when they might rather be applying themselves to the consideration of the Bill itself. A great deal of light had been thrown upon the subject by the evidence already given at the Bar, which did not appear to stand in need of any further
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corroboration by additional cases. Under those circumstances he should suggest, that Counsel might be able by an early hour to-morrow to conclude the whole of what they intended to lay before the House. After that the House should proceed to take into consideration the further proceeding with the Bill. It was absolutely impossible to suppose that this inquiry ever could have been intended to be gone into for the purpose, by causing a great loss of time virtually, and by a sidewind, to defeat a Bill on this most important subject.
The Earl of Falmouthmaintained, that their Lordships were bound in justice to allow sufficient time to all the Corporate bodies who had petitioned to send up their witnesses to be examined at the Bar.
The Earl of Harewoodsaid, there were two or three points in order to acquire information on which they had been induced to establish this inquiry, and one was what degree of credit was due to the Report of the Commissioners. He was not now disposed to raise the Question, whether it would bear a strict examination. After the evidence which had been produced concerning the conduct of the Commissioners, he was content to leave that to the individual opinion of then Lordships. But there was another object which he, at least, had in view—namely, to show there existed a great variety of interests and diversity in the constitution and management of these boroughs. Now, that had also been clearly proved by the evidence already produced, which was quite sufficient for the purposes of this Bill. It was not necessary that they should go into an examination of the state of every borough in the kingdom in order to deal with this Bill, provided only they had grounds enough for saying, that the variety which existed would render the application and working of the Bill extremely difficult, as applied to those different Corporations. Those who were not satisfied with the evidence already produced would not be likely to be convinced by any which could afterwards be presented: and it became therefore extremely important, that without losing time unnecessarily, at this late period of the Session, they should apply themselves to the Bill with the view of modifying it so as to render it less oppressive and revolutionary in its provisions.
The Earl of Mansfieldhad no doubt

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the effect of the evidence would be to confirm or alter the opinions which noble Lords entertained of the Report, and the measure which was founded on it; but in the votes he had given, on the Question of hearing Counsel and receiving evidence, he had been actuated wholly by a sense of justice to the petitioners, who considered their interests affected by the Bill. Not, however, to make the matter interminable, after the length they had already gone, he thought the House would be justified in interfering to put a stop to the inquiry, although, if in Committee there appeared to be particular Clauses which would operate prejudicially to individual boroughs, they might be at liberty, on presenting a petition, to slate their special circumstances to the House.
Lord Ellenboroughcontended, that the House was bound by its own order to hear witnesses in all those cases where petitions had been presented; it therefore rested with the learned Counsel, who were charged with the interests of their clients, to determine whether they should proceed with further evidence. For his own part he was inclined to think that it was altogether unnecessary and inexpedient to occupy any further time with evidence in the remaining cases.
Lord Broughamsaid, there remained only seven cases to be disposed of. They might easily be finished to-morrow.
The House adjourned.