Lords Sitting of 16 May 1834

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a third time:—Court of Chancery (Ireland).—Read a second time:—Burning Land (Ireland).
Petitions presented. By Lord CALTHORPE, from Holt, for the Repeal of the Malt Tax.—By the Duke of HAMILTON, from Renfrew, for postponing the Consideration of the Ministers of Churches (Scotland) Bill for six Months; from the Handloom Weavers of several Places, for a Board of Trade, and for Relief.—By the Earl of GOSFORD, from a Presbyterian Synod in Ireland, for an Alteration in the form of the Oaths taken by Presbyterians; and by Lord MELFORD, for Renewing the Labour Rate Act.—By the Duke of NEWCASTLE and Earl FITZWILLIAM, from a Number of Places, for Protection to the Established Church.—By Earl FITZWILLIAM, from two Places, for the Repeal of the Corn Laws.—By the Duke of GLOUCES-
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TER, the Marquess of BUTE, Earl FITZWILLIAM, Lord CALTHORPE, and the Archbishop of YORK, from several Places,—for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.—By the Earl of CAMPERDOWN, from several Places, for an Alteration in the present System of Church Patronage in Scotland.—By the Duke of GLOUCESTER, from Segrave, and other Places, against the Claims of the Dissenters.——By Lord WYNFORD, from Brighton and Tipton, against the Sale of Beer Act.—By Earl FITZWILLIAM, from a Number of Dissenting Congregations, for Relief to the Dissenters.—By the Earl of RADNOR, from three Places, for the Redemption of Tithes.

WARWICK BOROUGH BILL.
The Lord Chancellorcould not avoid calling the attention of their Lordships to the state of the proceedings upon this Bill. They had been going on for nearly a fortnight, and had examined between thirty-five and forty witnesses, and there were upwards of 100 more summoned. At the same time a Bill had passed the other House, and was coming up to their Lordships, which would greatly facilitate the procuring of witnesses. It was of great importance to the honour and character of that House, and what their Lordships, on all sides of the House, he was sure desired, that no evidence should be given which was not strictly consonant with the established rules of legal evidence. The interruptions and discussions upon the subject, however, might be almost endless if they had not the advantage of knowing to what points the testimony of each witness was to be directed. He thought, therefore, that Counsel ought to let the House know briefly the points to which the evidence was to be given. It was by no means unprecedented to have an opening from Counsel for this purpose; and he thought it was not too late, seeing the magnitude of the evidence still to be given, to cause that course to be taken. This was done in the Queen's business. He did not mean to make any proposition; but simply to throw this out for the consideration of their Lordships. He should be glad to know what the noble Earl thought upon the subject. Such a course would not lengthen, but tend much to shorten, the proceedings; for having heard beforehand the scope of a particular witness's testimony, he should be able to judge more readily of the course of examination pursued, and to stop what was irregular.
The Earl of Radnorsaid, that, although the noble and learned Lord had alluded to him upon this question, he took no more interest in this Bill than any one of their Lordships. He knew no more of the case than they did, or of the

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facts intended to be proved. With respect to the feelings of his noble friend, who had charge of the Bill, and was absent from the House in consequence of an accident which had just befallen one of his family, he could not speak. He could not undertake to give any opinion upon the proposal of the noble and learned Lord. He desired to see justice done, and that was all.
The Lord Chancellorsuggested, that the better course would be, to submit at once a motion to their Lordships, to the effect that the Counsel for the Bill should be instructed shortly to open their case on the meeting of the House after the recess, and to point out with as much conciseness as possible the further evidence they meant to produce, without, however, touching upon the testimony already given; if their Lordships had no objection to this course, he would put the motion.
The Duke of Wellingtonthought, as the noble Lord (Lord Durham) who had charge of the Bill was not in his place, it would be better to postpone the Motion until it was ascertained whether or not he would concur in it.
Subject dropped.

THE IRISH CLERGY.
The Marquess of Downshirepresented a petition from the clergy of the county of Armagh and other parts of the north of Ireland, praying that the time for paying the instalments on the loans made to the Irish clergy by the Board of First Fruits for erecting glebe-houses might be prolonged; and setting forth, that they were reluctantly compelled to solicit this indulgence at their Lordships' hands in consequence of their incomes being withheld from them. The late Board of First Fruits had been authorized by the provisions of an Act of Parliament to lend certain sums of money to the Irish clergy for the purpose of enabling them to build glebe-houses. These sums were to be repaid by instalments, the amount of which was to be regulated by the value of each benefice, and for this accommodation six per cent interest was to be paid while the money remained in their hands. That amount was subsequently reduced to four per cent; but the petitioners being unable to obtain the incomes to which by law they were entitled, were not now able to pay either the reduced interest or the instalment due upon these loans. The
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Petition stated, that the incomes of the clergy at the time the loans were made to them were much larger than those they possessed at present. Their means had been considerably diminished of late years, and, owing to the opposition which was made to the payment of tithes, they and their families were now reduced to a state of great distress. They submitted, that their altered circumstances rendered four per cent too heavy a rate of interest for them to pay, and expressed an earnesthope, that their Lordships, taking into consideration the hardships they suffered, would be pleased to lower the rate of the interest and reduce the amount of the annual instalments which, under the provisions of the Acts of the 3rd and 4th of William 4th, they were called upon by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to pay. The noble Marquess said, that it was a hard case to see gentlemen belonging to so sacred a calling, and who had received a University education, suffering the distress which these petitioners endured. Their case well deserved the attention of that House, and he entertained little doubt, knowing as he did the feelings of their Lordships towards the unfortunate clergy of Ireland, that the prayer of the petition would not be disregarded or remain unattended to.
The Earl of Wicklowcould not allow the present opportunity to pass without recalling to their Lordships' attention the deplorable situation in which the Irish clergy were placed, and to declare for himself, that the relief which they sought was much more moderate than either their necessities required, or he had expected. They only asked that further time might be afforded to them for paying the instalments which had become due on these loans; and, under all the circumstances, he hoped their Lordships would not deny a request that was in every point of view so reasonable and creditable to the petitioners who had put it forward. If precedent were required to justify them in relieving the Irish clergy from these payments the Act of last Session would furnish that precedent. By that Act similar payments were remitted, and he thought the case which these petitioners made out was just as strong as that upon which the exemption to which he alluded was founded. The Board of First Fruits had the power of making loans for two distinct purposes, namely, to parishes for building churches,

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and to the clergy for erecting glebe-houses. These loans were to be repaid in the manner his noble friend bad stated. By the Act of last year parishes were exempted from the repayment of the sums lent to them; and as the principle applicable to the grants made to parishes applied with equal force to the loans received by the clergy for building glebe-houses, he could not understand how, consistently with justice they could continue the payments in the one case while they remitted them in the other. Just let them for a moment consider what the situation was in which the Irish clergy were placed. They entered upon their livings under the impression that their incomes would be certain; that their rights would be as much protected as the rights of other persons; but what had been the result? Why, that, instead of receiving that to which they were entitled, they could get nothing, absolutely nothing, and were suffering the most unmerited distress. The measure now pending in another place would have the effect of causing a still greater diminution in their incomes. That measure would occasion a reduction of from fifteen to twenty per cent, in the revenue of each living, in addition to which the Act of the last Session imposed upon the clergy several other burthens that were grievously felt by them. It was really quite impossible for them to pay the instalments on these loans. The heavy expense which they incurred by endeavouring to collect their incomes was a circumstance which, among others, ought not to be forgotten; and if noble Lords would be at the trouble to consult the returns which had been laid before the other House of Parliament on this subject, they would he convinced, not only that the clergy of Ireland had much to complain of, but that it would be merely an act of justice to relieve them from this particular incumbrance. He, therefore, hoped that their Lordships would give a favourable consideration to the prayer of the Petitioners, and the ground on which his present appeal was founded was, that they would have an opportunity of inserting a clause in the Tithe-bill to effect that which was required of them, as that Bill had not as yet got into Committee. This was, consequently, the proper time for adding such a clause, and surely it was only just that something should be done for these petitioners. In alluding to this Bill he was bound to admit that it
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had his humble commendation. He did not speak of the details of the measure, but only of its general principle. It was the best and most rational measure which his Majesty's Government had brought forward; but even that acknowledgment was not saying much in its favour. He would, however, go a little further, and fully acknowledge that this Bill undoubtedly did contain some really wholesome provisions, and it was not therefore, without considerable anxiety and alarm that he viewed the delay which it had experienced in its progress. But he trusted that his Majesty's Government would not allow the Bill to be spoiled in the Committee; that they would not hearken to the dictation of faction; and, above all, that they would not abandon a measure which was likely to produce so much good in Ireland. He would not detain the House any longer, except to repeat the hope which he had already expressed, that the prayer of the petition would receive the attention of their Lordships.
The Marquess of Lansdownassured the noble Earl, that the Government would not abandon the Bill. The delay which had taken place, was not attributable to the Ministers, but to circumstances, and, had it been practicable to urge it forward with greater speed, steps for that purpose would have been taken.
The Bishop of Derrythought, that the petitioners were entitled to that for which they asked. Nothing could possibly be more reasonable than the indulgence they solicited; and when the situation in which they were placed was considered, surely the justice of giving an affirmative answer to their prayer must be obvious to every one of their Lordships. He rejoiced to find that the Irish clergy had had the good taste to place their petition in the hands of a noble Lord to whom they were so much indebted for the services which he had rendered to them, and, as they were suffering the most aggravated distress, it was to be hoped that their Lordships would grant them the trifling boon for which they asked.
Petition laid on the Table.

CHURCH REFORM.
The Lord Chancellorpresented a Petition from the city of Aberdeen, signed by 2,500 persons, containing the same prayer as that which he had recently presented, signed by 48,000 persons, from Glasgow, for the re-

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lief of the Dissenters from the grievances under which they at present labour. The noble and learned Lord said, that having on the occasion of presenting the petition from Glasgow, gone at some length into the subject, it would not be necessary for him to trouble their Lordships with more than a few observations at present. He was of opinion, that all the grievances of the Dissenters ought to be redressed, and that all the burthens and disabilities under which they laboured ought to be done away with; and that every facility should be given to them respecting marriages, burials, and registration. It afforded him the greatest satisfaction to know that an hon. relative of his in the other House of Parliament, who filled a high office in the Court of Chancery, had brought in a Bill for the purpose of establishing a general registry of births, marriages, and burials, which would be equally beneficial to Churchmen and Dissenters; indeed he would say, that it would be more beneficial to Churchmen than even to Dissenters. At all events, however, it would remove one of the justly complained of grievances of the Dissenters at present,—their not having a legalized registry of their births and marriages. He was happy to find, that the Bill in question had received the support of his Majesty's Government in the House of Commons; and he trusted, that a long period would not elapse when they would have an opportunity of discussing the merits of the measure in that House, to which occasion he would reserve his observations upon it.
Petition laid upon the Table.

NON-RESIDENCE AND PLURALITIES.
The Lord Chancellorthen proceeded: Though he was a friend to the Established Church of the country,—a firm supporter of its just dues, privileges, and rights, he always had been a friend to reform in the abuses of that Establishment, as much as the petitioners possibly could be, whose petition had been just laid on the Table. He might differ from them as to what constituted abuses in that Establishment; but this he would say, that, let any thing be shown to be an abuse, and let an efficacious remedy be proposed for it, and none would be found a warmer supporter of the adoption of such a remedy than he. Though it might happen, that some of their Lordships and the Members of the right reverend Bench might materially
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differ from him as to the kind of abuses that existed, and the reform which they required,—though he was afraid that they did differ upon that point, yet he was sure, that when he said, that if abuses existed in the Church Establishment they ought to be speedily redressed, he only expressed a sentiment in which all the members of the right reverend Bench, and all their Lordships, cordially concurred. It was in consistency with these opinions, that he had to present to their Lordships two Bills, upon which he had consulted with the other members of the Government, and the object of which was, to correct what he believed were generally admitted to be abuses in the Church Establishment. One of those Bills was to prevent Pluralities, and the other was to prevent the Non-residence of the Clergy. The first of these,—namely, pluralities, had long been one of the greatest abuses of the Establishment, a source of weakness to it, and a never-failing ground of objection, on which all the enemies of the Church Establishment had been always ready to fasten. It was an evil which, in his humble opinion, was ripe for the sickle, which had attained such a magnitude that it should be cut down, and no longer allowed to mar the benefits of the Church Establishment. No one would say, that there could be a greater evil than that of pluralities. He would not dwell at present at any length upon the abuse of non-residence. It was an abuse which had crept into the Establishment since its separation from the Catholic Church, which Church knew of, and recognized, no such thing as non-residence. Non-residence, in fact, was contrary to the Common Law, and contrary to the spirit of the Canon Law; and it only existed in consequence of various dispensations granted, to allow persons not to reside. This abuse had led to two great evils,—first, to a variety of Acts of Parliament on the subject; and secondly, to the granting of dispensations upon no rational or consistent principle. The law said, that the clergyman should reside, and that if a dispensation for non-residence should be granted to him, it should be on the ground of some other office which he filled which rendered continual residence on his living impossible. Now, chaplaincies were by law cases for dispensation. There were a great many chaplains to noblemen, to the judges, to the Attorney and Solicitor Generals, to

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the members of the Royal Family, &c. Each of the Chief Justices had six chaplains; he (the Lord Chancellor) himself had six. They certainly could not therefore complain of the want of large spiritual aid; and it was their own fault if they did not benefit by it. But while the law intended, by limiting the dispensations for non-residence to such offices, to restrict them to the select few, those chaplaincies had so increased in number, that any one who could get a living could get in that way a dispensation for non-residence; and the consequence was, that that which had been originally contrary to law had become the law itself. These Bills, therefore, after reciting and repealing all the previous acts which had been passed relative to pluralities and non-residence, by a simple, consistent, and adequate enactment, provided, that the holding of pluralities and non-residence should not be permitted on the part of any persons holding ecclesiastical dignities. That provision was, perhaps, too ample; and, if their Lordships pleased, a special exemption might be introduced with respect to superior dignitaries in the Church, who, upon various grounds, such as the necessity imposed upon them of attending their Parliamentary duties, could not be expected always to reside on their livings. He was not so tenacious of that portion of the Bill, that, should their Lordships make an alteration in it to that effect, he would give it up; on the contrary, he would persevere in it. The Bill provided, that all rectors, curates, and other inferior dignitaries, should reside upon their livings, except for two months in the year, under pain of forfeiture of treble the amount of the value of the living for the time they were absent from it. The only dispensations granted to them by the Bill for absence from their livings were in the cases of sickness, in cases where they were called away to give evidence, and in cases where the sickness or death of any of their relatives, or some such necessity, produced a temporary absence on their part, It was also provided in the Bill, that the cause of their absence must be stated on the face of the dispensation when it was granted. Their Lordships would find, that this Bill, regarding Non-residence, had been drawn up with the greatest possible care; he would venture to say, with greater care than any Bill that had been brought forward for the last fifteen months. The
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other—the Plurality Bill—laid the axe to the root of the evil. It enacted, that no person should hold two livings, if one was above the annual value of 200 l. It was provided, also, that where a person held a living under the value of 200 l., and where, therefore, he would be allowed to hold another in conjunction with it, that other should not be above the value of 100 l. or 150 l.; and that it should be contiguous to his other living, or, at all events, that the church in the one living should not be more than five miles distant from the church in the other. The exemption which he had stated was introduced into the Bill in order to meet the cases of those small livings, too many of which, he believed upwards of 4,000 in number, existed throughout the country. The principle upon which he went was, that, if a living was large enough to support a curate, he should be the rector of it, instead of his handing over a miserable 15 l. or 20 l. to a rector that did not reside. It would be said, perhaps, that the effect of this Bill would be to decrease the number of persons that would be educated for the Church. He pledged himself, that no such effect would follow from it. On the contrary, he was sure, that the same number would be educated for that profession when those regulations for putting an end to pluralities and non-residence should be put in force. The only exemption in the Bill was made in favour of prebendaries and canons, who would be allowed to hold small livings, not exceeding 100 l. in value, in addition to their prebendal stalls and canonries. The noble Lord concluded by moving, that the Bills be read a first time.
Lord Bexleybegged to remind the noble and learned Lord, that pluralities were a legacy bequeathed to us by the Catholic Church, that they existed to a greater extent before the Reformation, and that they existed at present in Catholic countries to quite as great an extent as they did in this. He begged to remind the noble and learned Lord of the fact, that Cardinal Wolsey held the Archbishopric of York and the Bishoprics of Worcester and Winchester, in conjunction with the high offices he filled at the time in the State. No man could more rejoice than he should at seeing an effectual remedy, not productive of injustice, applied to such an evil. He, for one, would give his best attention to the details of those Bills.
The Marquess of Butewas glad to find that Government had applied itself to these subjects, and he would give his best attention to both the measures. A Bill was introduced by the Archbishop of Canterbury, two years ago, on the subject of pluralities, and which was lost in the House of Commons. He had supported that Bill, though he did not think it went far enough; and he should readily support the Bills of the noble Lord.
The Earl of Radnorsaid, that he had also supported the Bill referred to by the noble Marquess, because it was an admission, on the part of the Church, of the existence of the evil. He certainly considered it, in no respect, a sufficient remedy for that evil; and it was lost in the House of Commons because it did not go far enough. He trusted, that the provisions of the present Bill would go much further.
Lord Wynfordsaid, that, if the Bill should pass into a law, as far as property was concerned, the ministers of the Established Church would be infinitely below the sectarian ministers throughout the country.
The Bills were read a first time.