HL Deb 02 May 1834 vol 23 cc415-9
The Duke of Newcastle

said, that, in pursuance of the notice he had given, he called the attention of their Lordships to the proposed plan of holding a certain Musical Festival—in other words, of having a Musical Performance—in Westminster Abbey. He assured their Lordships, that he did not bring the subject under their consideration from any feeling of puritanism, but beeause he thought that the course intended to be pursued was most improper; nor should he have brought it under their consideration, had he not thought them the guardians of the best interests of the community, and consequently of the Church. He, therefore, considered it his duty to call their attention to the subject. He did not think that the performance of music, merely because it was sacred music, was any reason for justifying it. Nor did he think that the object of that performance made much difference in the matter. The fact that a charity was to be benefited did not change his objections to the thing. He knew it was said, that the object of this performance was to aid a charity; but he was not sure that that was the fact, for he had heard, that the funds were to go to a body of musicians, but he had not heard that they were to be given to any great charity, or to any churches or chapels. He knew it would be said, that the example of George 3rd was against him on this subject; and he knew that, in differing from George 3rd, he might be thought to take too much upon himself. But, with the greatest respect for that pious Monarch, he had great doubts upon the subject. One decided objection he had to it, which was, that the preparations for this Festival were the means of abridging the performance of Divine Service for the people. He must add, that, to him, it seemed a dangerous thing to weaken that impression which the sacredness of an edifice, consecrated to religious uses, had upon the mind. Why, then, should they desecrate those holy places by familiarizing the mind to associate with them the pleasures and vain pursuits of this life? The whole measure was ill-advised, and was calculated to do great injury to religion. He had heard, indeed, that the design was not approved of by the Dean and Chapter, and that it was at one time contemplated to hold the meeting in Westminster Hall. What good reason could be assigned against such an arrangement? Or, if the Hall were not suitable, might not other places be selected without doing violence to the consciences of those who regarded such performances in churches as acts of desecration, and as having a direct tendency to destroy the influence of religious impressions on the minds of the people? The Bishops, too, as he had been informed, were against the scheme, and had represented their dissent in a high quarter. Churches, by the consecration service, were to be separated from all profane and common uses, and set apart in a solemn manner for the performance of the several offices of religious worship; and, in a beautiful prayer, it is entreated "that the Almighty will consecrate the place to the honour of his great name, separating it from henceforth from all unhallowed, ordinary, and common uses, and dedicating it to his service." A church was desecrated when it was used for other than the purposes of Divine Worship. He would conclude by quoting Divine authority, and referred their Lordships to the well-known act of our Saviour, when he entered the temple, and finding them that sold doves, and sheep, and oxen, and the changers of money sitting:—He overthrew the tables, and drove them out that sold in the temple, and told them that his Father's house was a house of prayer, but that they had made it a house of merchandise. He anxiously hoped, then, that the desecration might yet be prevented; and it was to obtain this result, that he had called their Lordships' attention to the subject. Without submitting any specific motion upon it, he must leave it to the judgment of their Lordships to deal with this matter as they thought fit.

The Earl of Malmesbury

hoped, as he had said a few words when this subject was, on a former occasion, before their Lordships, that he might be allowed again to refer to it. He did not see, that the ceremony, to which the noble Duke alluded, could be considered as a desecration of the Abbey. There were matters of which it would be proper to complain,—he meant the use of Churches for purposes of a very different kind; and he did think, that they were desecrated by being made the scenes of parish broils. He must say, that the plan now proposed was sanctioned by the example of his most gracious Sovereign George 3rd. His Majesty lived in very stormy times; and he did not believe, that we were more strict or rigid, with regard to religion, now than at that time. Indeed, he did not wish that we should be, for we might go from one extreme to the other, as was generally the case. His noble friend was mistaken in supposing, that the object of this Festival was not a charitable object. It was to support the Royal Society of Musicians. He believed that to be so; if he were wrong, he could be corrected, for he believed, that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack was a member of the Committee. Their Lordships must all of them be acquainted with similar festivals in their respective counties. He remembered, many years ago, a musical meeting in Salisbury Cathedral, and similar meetings had taken place in those of York, and Worcester, and other places, on a great many different occasions. These meetings always took place under the authority of the Diocesan, and were generally for the benefit of the County Hospital; and under these circumstances, justified as this festival was by so many precedents, he trusted, that the noble Duke would change his view of the matter. He could assure the noble Duke, that, if he thought Divine Service would be impeded by it, he should object to the festival; but he had inquired, and he found that that was not the case. He hoped that the noble Duke would be satisfied with what he had said, and that the directors of the festival would take notice of the observations that had been made, and would see, that no impediment was offered by the arrangement, to the performance of Divine Service.

The Bishop of London

said, that if the noble Earl who had just sat down had not entered so largely into the merits of the matter, he should have remained silent; but he now begged leave to say one or two sentences, feeling, as he did, that if he remained silent, he should be compromising his own sincerity if he did not state, that he conscientiously approved of the objections of the noble Duke, upon a very clear and distinct ground,—not those which had been supposed in the public papers, in which his motives and opinions had been misrepresented. He had objections to these and similar festivals, because he did not think it right that places solemnly consecrated to the worship of God should be afterwards used for any other purpose whatsoever.

The Duke of Cumberland

said, that he should have been the last person in the world to refuse his support to the noble Duke, if he did not conscientiously feel, that there was little or no ground for his objections to this festival. He was sure that no man more conscientiously than his revered father, whom he should ever lament, supported the Church, or had a greater regard for its sacredness, but he had approved of a festival of this sort. The festival now proposed was intended for the benefit of a charity,—a charity which, he was sorry to say, was now in danger from a deficiency of funds. He had inquired into the matter of the impediments offered to Divine Service, and he had been informed, that no impediments would occur, and that the only change was, that some parts of the service must, for a short time, be performed in different parts of the Church. Whenever, in the course of the week, Divine Service was required to be celebrated, the men withdrew from their work. He repeated, that he should he the last person in the world to sanction anything that could, in the slightest respect, interfere with the interests of the Established Church of this country; and he was sure, that he could not be injuring the interests of the Church in supporting that which had been approved of by his father and by Bishop Porteous.

The Lord Chancellor

did not rise to prolong, beyond a single sentence, this discussion, the introduction of which he lamented. He had the honour to be a Vice-President, or one of the Stewards of the festival, and he wholly approved of the object of it, which was that of pure charity, for an unfortunate, but very deserving body of men. It was a matter of which he approved, whether connected with religion or not,—as not connected with religion, music tended to the innocent recreation of men, and was calculated to humanize and soften them, and therefore ought to be encouraged by all wise Legislators; but, with respect to religion, he and other Episcopalians thought, that music of a certain kind could not be improper as connected with the subject of religion, when the object in view was charitable. When he was asked to become one of the officers of this festival, which was patronized by her most gracious Majesty, he felt, that he could not refuse; and he should do his test to do his duty. As to the right reverend Prelate who had just addressed their Lordships, a more inoffensive or more liberal manner of stating his opinion, or rather his religious scruples, could not have been adopted; and nothing could be more gross than to speak of him as the right reverend Bishop said he had been spoken of, though he (the Lord Chancellor) was not aware of it, in a disrespectful manner on this subject. If he entertained the same feelings as the right reverend Prelate, he should speak in the same manner; but he did not. This was not the first time that churches had been used for these purposes; so that not to have the festival in the Abbey would be a deviation from the common course. Festivals had been held in all the other cathedrals of the kingdom, and he himself remembered having been present at two such festivals in that most magnificent of all our religious edifices, the Minster at York, in the presence, on one occasion at least, of that most venerable person, the primate of England, the Archbishop of York. On the earliest of these occasions, in 1823, he could certainly speak to the presence of his Grace, and to his Grace's approval of the manner in which the festival was conducted; and he recollected that, when an attempt at applause had been made, his Grace, in the most mild and dignified manner, said, that that was not the place in which such things should be done; and from that time nothing more had taken place in the way of applause or disapprobation, than if it had been Divine Service on a Sunday. There had been festivals in Westminster Abbey on three occasions previous to this. In the years 1783, 1789, and 1791, and those under the reign of a Sovereign, who, if ever there was one disposed to uphold to the utmost of his power the religion of the country, and to testify his belief in it, George 3rd was that Sovereign. He hoped that, under these circumstances, the noble Duke would not think of proceeding further with this matter.

The conversation was dropped.