Lords Sitting of 26 March 1834

MINUTES.
Bills. Received the Royal Assent by Commission:—Exchequer; Pensions, &c. Duties; Consolidated Fund; Sugar Duties; Transfer of Aids; Indemnity; Mutiny; Marine Mutiny; Juries (Ireland); North-American Postage; and Turnpike Road Acts' Continuance.
Petitions presented. By viscount BERESFORD, from the Political Union of Charlotte Street, for Mercy to the Persons Convicted at Dorchester of taking Unlawful Oaths.—By the Marquess of LANSDOWN, from a Dissenting Congregation at Salisbury, for Relief to the Dissenters—By the Duke of GORDON, from several Places in Scotland, against any Alteration in the Corn Laws.

CLAIMS OF THE DISSENTERS—PETITION.
The Lord Chancellorpresented a Petition, which he said was most numerously, and, in so far as he had been able to perceive, most respectably signed, frosts the inhabitants of the town of Edinburgh, and from those of Leith, upon the subject of the claims of the Dissenters. The petitioners described themselves as Dissenters from the Established Church of that part of the United Kingdom; and, after setting forth the difficulties under which they laboured, in consequence of the difference which the law made in some respects with regard to them, and the still greater difference which the law made with regard to those who were Dissenters from the Established Church in that part of the United Kingdom, they declared that they considered that the only remedy for these grievances was, to terminate by law all distinctions whatever between any classes of his Majesty's subjects, on account of their being members of, or dissenting from, the Establishment, and to put an end to taxation for the support of such Establishment, and to devote the property and the revenues at present in possession of the Established Church in both parts of the United Kingdom to other national purposes, but having, at the same time, a due regard to the interests of present incumbents. He felt himself highly honoured by the confidence which the petitioners had placed in him, in selecting him to present their Petition to their Lordships; but he should ill repay that confidence if he did not state that, though he agreed to, and supported, to a considerable extent, their Petition, there was one part of the statement contained in that Petition to which he could not subscribe, and the prayer of which did not meet with his concurrence. The part of the statement to which he alluded, was that which set forth, that great mischief arose from the Church Establishment, both in this country and in Scotland; and that such Establishment was upheld at an extreme expense, for the use chiefly of the wealthy classes of the community; and, moreover, that, in both parts of the United Kingdom, it was not supported by that wealthy class alone, but added considerably to the burthens of the people, "while it

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only comprehended among its adherents a mere minority, which was daily decreasing in numbers." He was not aware that any part of this statement was consistent with the fact. He believed, indeed, that parts of it were utterly inconsistent with the fact, and they who made this statement were misinformed when they were led to suppose that the adherents of the Established Church in England were a mere minority. He was informed, too, that they were equally incorrect in saying the same thing as applicable to the Church of Scotland. Having set forth these matters as the foundation of their prayer—a statement on which he entirely differed from them—they went on to call upon Parliament to abolish the connection between Church and State; to put an end, in fact, to the Church Establishment in one part and the other of the kingdom, and to apply the revenues of the Church to other purposes than those to which they were now applicable. He could not agree with them on this point. He considered that the proposition which began the statement of this Petition led to a directly opposite conclusion. The Petitioners objected to a civil establishment of religion, which, they said, violated consciences, was partial and unjust, was opposed to good morals and good government, and was injurious to Christianity itself; and that all persons had a right to hold opinions which they conscientiously and honestly entertained, and to belong to such church, whether an Established Church, or a sectarian Church, in the doctrines preached at which they could sincerely and conscientiously believe. Now, if the great body of the people of this country, or of Scotland, seriously believed, that a Church Establishment was the best mode of maintaining their opinions, those individuals, whether the minority or the majority, had an undeniable right to have a Church Establishment, and still more undeniably, if they were the majority; for he never yet had heard, that the majority had not a right to maintain any establishment they might think fit. It was a perfectly debatable question. While there was no illegality nor impropriety in the opinion held by the Petitioners, and while the language in which they addressed their Lordships' House was respectful and proper, their Petitions deserved attention; but he trusted, that be should be accused of no disrespect to the Petitioners, in observing that in these parts of the statement, and of the prayer of the Petition, his opinion did not agree with theirs. In one part of the Petition he did
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concur. The Petitioners stated, that the Dissenters of England were subject, in consequence of the law, to several grievances even still more than those of which the Petitioners themselves complained; that these grievances were unjust in themselves, and hurtful to the State, as enforced against a number of enlightened and powerful men, who had performed eminent services in the cause of religious, moral, and political freedom. There was nothing more just or proper than this well-earned praise thus bestowed upon the Dissenters; and such had been the conduct of the Dissenters on all these points, that he was prepared to say that, whatever praises might be bestowed upon them for their conduct, it was impossible they should be exaggerated. He, therefore, wholly coincided with the Petitioners in saying, that some of the matters of which the Dissenters complained were evils; and in that part of the Petition which prayed, that the Legislature would take such steps as were necessary to put an end to all distinctions in respect of civil and constitutional privileges, as were grounded on differences in religious matters, he most heartily concurred; and he trusted that Ministers would be able to consummate that which they had begun. He might add, that, as far as the revenues of the Church were concerned, so far as those revenues depended upon taxation, he hoped that the measure which the Government had introduced into the other House of Parliament, would be such that it would not be necessary to go further; and, as far as the bulk of the Church revenues was concerned (he meant tithes), he hoped that the measure of which his noble Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had given notice, and which, but for his noble Friend's indisposition, would have been introduced into the other House two days ago, would prove fully satisfactory.

CRIMINAL COURTS.
The Lord Chancellorbegged to present their Lordships with a Bill, which, if he did not greatly deceive himself, would afford a remedy to several inconveniences in the administration of criminal justice in this great metropolis, and would place on a more satisfactory footing, for the future, that most important part of the administration of the laws of the land. Differing from others, the county of Middlesex, and the county of the city of London, were subject partly to magistrates assembled at sessions, under their general commission of the peace, as in other coun-

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ties, and partly to the jurisdiction of the magistrates under commissions of Oyer and Terminer, issued from time to time, under which they sat with so much regularity, that though the commissions were in the eyes of the law occasional commissions, they were, in fact, commissions for the regular holding of courts. In another respect, there was a difference between the county of Middlesex and other counties, for the jurisdiction established in the Old Bailey had cognizance not only over offences committed in the county of Middlesex, but over those committed in the city of London. The extension of jurisdiction which this Bill contemplated would, he thought, be productive of many advantages to good order and morals, by creating a more frequent administration of the law at the Old Bailey. It would, among other things, prevent the gaols from being over-crowded with prisoners; but, in addition to this, the speed with which the punishment followed the offence, would be of advantage incalculable in the repression of crime. There had already been an increase in the number of periods at which the Old Bailey Sessions had been held; but, nevertheless, the frequency of the Sessions had not increased as the demand for the labour of the Court required, and it was therefore one part of the measure which he now proposed, that this frequency of the Sessions should be increased, and that there should be twelve Sessions at the Old Bailey instead of eight, as at present. It was a peculiarity which distinguished this jurisdiction from all others of a similar sort, that the Grand Jury who found the bills on which criminals were to be tried at the Old Bailey, for offences committed within the county of Middlesex, was a Grand Jury assembled at Clerkenwell, where the magistrates of the county sat under a commission of Oyer and Terminer, as well as under their general commission of the peace, as he had before said. This would henceforth be unnecessary. The increase of criminal business at these Sessions had been most considerable, and had been great in proportion to the increase of their other business. The change which had happily taken place in the relaxation of the severity of our criminal law had also increased the number of cases that might come before the magistrates at Clerkenwell. He should not utter one word in disparagement of the worthy individuals who composed that bench, and indeed it was impossible not to applaud the industry, zeal, assiduity, and integrity with which they discharged
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their duties. Nevertheless, he was not one of those who was satisfied in all particulars to see so vast a mass of the criminal business of the county transacted by magistrates appointed as magistrates were known to be, the more especially when they were not assisted in the discharge of their duties by a professional man. It was true, that, at this moment, the magistrates of Middlesex had the assistance of a learned gentleman who acted as their Chairman; but as that gentleman received no salary, it was quite impossible to expect that that assistance should long continue to be given. It was of importance, therefore, that some well-considered arrangement should be made. It was of the utmost importance, that the administration of criminal justice should be uniform. It was with a view to such an object, that it had frequently been said, that there should be a centre from which, and a point to which, all that was connected with the administration of justice should issue and be referred. Without alluding to any circumstance of an invidious nature, or without alluding to any unpleasant collisions which might have taken place, he would state at once, that after much consideration, he had come to this conclusion—that the more the business was concentrated under the Judges of the Old Bailey, so much the better would it be for the subject, for the King's peace, and for the administration of the criminal law of the country. It was with that view, and acting under these principles, and this conviction, that he introduced this Bill. By extending the jurisdiction of the Old Bailey, the despatch of business would be insured, and a better tribunal would be provided for the trial of those numerous, and frequently important, cases which now went to the sessions. The measure which he was about to propose had these specific objects in view. At the Old Bailey, the Lord Mayor and Magistrates of the city of London presided. They had the assistance of the Recorder and Common-Sergeant—gentlemen of great legal ability, and who generally had had long professional experience as advocates. It was, he was sure, impossible for him to speak in terms too high of their legal knowledge. Not only were those sessions holden before those valuable magistrates, assisted by the learned Recorder and the Common-Sergeant (and, of late years, by the Deputy-Recorder), but—what was still more important, and which distinguished the Old Bailey sessions from all others—

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they received the assistance of the Judges of the Land, including the Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench. In addition to the advantages which those sittings derived from the trying of cases before those learned persons, the highest legal authorities in the kingdom, this also was to be taken into the account—that in consequence of his vicinity to the rest of the Judges, the learned individual who presided was enabled, whenever the least point of difficulty occurred, to have access to, and to procure the opinion of, his brother Judges. These were the circumstances which had occasioned the country to place such confidence in the way in which justice was administered at the Old Bailey. The Bill which he now proposed to their Lordships would, in the first place, do away entirely with that extraordinary anomaly, the finding bills at one place, which were to be tried at a considerable distance—a proceeding in consequence of which judges, jurors, prosecutors, counsel, and witnesses, were often kept waiting for bills. It was next proposed, (and he would only now touch briefly on a few of the principal points)—it was next proposed to extend the jurisdiction of the Old Bailey considerably beyond its present limits, and to increase the frequency of the sessions. At present the sessions were held eight times in the year, and the jurisdiction extended over the whole county; but it did not extend to all the places which might be called a part of the metropolis, and where the population was exceedingly dense. He was in favour of a great extension of the metropolitan jurisdiction, because he could imagine no conceivable reason for confining it to its present restricted limits. He knew not why it should be restricted to one bank of the river. He would extend the Old Bailey jurisdiction to the great borough of Southwark, and all the districts in its neighbourhood, containing it population of between 90,000 and 100,000 souls. He would also include Lambeth, Greenwich, and Woolwich, with several other large parishes, comprehending, he believed, as many as a dozen places. These places he should propose to bring within the jurisdiction of the Old Bailey Sessions; Southwark and Lambeth, though not on the same bank of the river on which the metropolis properly so called was seated, might yet be fairly said to form a part of it. As the system now existed, an offence committed in Middlesex, in consequence of the Old Bailey sessions being held eight times in the year, was
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tried almost immediately; but if the same offence, or an offence of a more atrocious character, were perpetrated at a few yards distance on the other bank of the river, it could not be tried for five or six months, when the Surrey assizes were held. In the same way, if an offence were committed at Greenwich, a few furlongs down the river, the criminal must be tried at Maidstone. He would, to obviate these evils and inconveniences, take the whole extent he had mentioned as one great city, and place it under the same Jurisdiction. Within that limit, whether an offence were committed on one side of the river or the other, whether it was perpetrated a little higher up or a little lower down, the jurisdiction of the Old Bailey should extend, and that court have full power to try the case. He should propose, that all the places which he had named should be amenable to this jurisdiction, because, properly speaking, they might be said to belong to the metropolis. Thus the jurisdiction of the Old Bailey would extend all over Middlesex, a part of Surrey and Kent, and a small portion of Essex. He proposed to add four to the present eight annual sessions; consequently, there would be a sitting for the administration of criminal justice every month in the year. An arrangement was also made in the Bill for transferring from the Quarter Sessions, held by the Magistrates of Middlesex, to the Old Bailey Sessions, of offences beyond a certain extent of criminality. It was provided that the jurisdiction of the Quarter Sessions for the county of Middlesex should be confined to misdemeanours and to other offences which did not render the offenders liable to punishment of more than seven years' transportation. There would be a clause, however, enabling persons arraigned before the Quarter Sessions of the county of Middlesex, to remove their cases by certiorari to the Court at the Old Bailey. He was quite aware, indeed it would immediately strike their Lordships, that the effect of this arrangement might be, to impose new and additional labour on the learned Judges who presided at the Old Bailey; and it was necessary he should state in what way he proposed to meet that objection; and in the first place, he must state, that no one who knew those learned and excellent individuals as he did, both professionally and personally, could have the slightest vestige of doubt on his mind, that as far as their strength and time would at all permit, regard being had to their present avoca-

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tions, they would be the last individuals in the world to object to what they would not call, but what he for them would call, the incumbrance of additional business. They were ready to devote every moment of their time, which needful relaxation did not absolutely demand, to the performance of their high and most important functions. But it did not follow, because those learned individuals were willing to undertake that, their Lordships should be too ready to impose on them an additional burthen, as to the extent of their business, without an absolute necessity, or without awarding them a reasonable compensation—he meant compensation in the way of a diminution of their other labours. Now, their Lordships were aware, that up to 1828 and 1829, the number of the Judges was only twelve. The measures of those years, however, ripening into an Act of Parliament, which was passed in the last year of his late Majesty, led to an increase in their number of no small amount—to one-fourth, in fact; so that, instead of twelve, they became fifteen. One of the principal motives of this increase, which justified and rendered it indeed absolutely necessary, was the fact, that at that time the Welch judicature being abolished, two new circuits were created, and new Judges, of course, were required. But that only occasioned the necessity of two Judges going circuit twice, about six weeks during the whole year; and the three new Judges were ready at all times not only to go circuits, but to perform all other judicial duties. He did not mean to deny, that, in the alterations which of recent years had taken place in law proceedings, there had been an augmented mass of civil business; yet, beyond all doubt the number of Judges had been increased in a very considerable proportion higher than the judicial labour to be performed. Now, it required but little reference to arithmetic to show, that as the sessions were only eight at the Old Bailey, the number of Judges being twelve, the same proportion would still hold; the Judges being fifteen, and the sessions ten. But then it was now proposed, instead of ten, to make the sessions twelve in the course of the year. It would be in the recollection of their Lordships, that some seven years ago, a winter circuit had been established, having been deemed necessary in consequence of the vicinity to the metropolis of the home counties. That, however, had given rise to very great inconvenience, and had been much complained
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of, not only by the profession, but also by the suitors and witnesses who had been mainly concerned. In the home, it was obviously more necessary that there should be three circuits in the year, than in any of the other counties of England; and the reason for the winter circuit was, to dispose of the business connected more or less with the city of London upon the Surrey and Kent side of the river; and, therefore, if from that circuit all those districts were withdrawn which occasioned its necessity, there would not remain the slightest reason for, indeed the ground would fail entirely on which the third winter circuit was established. He looked forward, then, as the immediate consequence of this measure, to the entire abolition of that winter circuit, which had led to inconvenience, and which had deprived the suitors of the advantage of those members of the bar who usually attended the summer and spring assizes. Putting those circumstances together, taking also into account that three Judges at the Old Bailey had long been felt wholly unnecessary, two being quite sufficient to transact the business, with the assistance of the learned Recorder and Common-Sergeant,—placing those matters one against another, the proposed arrangement would not give the Judges an atom more business than they now had, but certainly no more than the amount they had to transact a few years back, when their numbers were twelve instead of fifteen. He had thought it necessary to state those few circumstances in order to account for the apparent augmentation,—for it was only apparent,—which under the new system would be made in the labours of the Judges, although, as he before stated, they would be the last individuals to entertain the shadow of a shade of dissatisfaction at any addition or increase being made to their public judicial functions. Having stated thus much, he must be allowed to say, that, in his view, there was nothing more important, nothing which would tend more to the welfare and good government of the metropolis, nothing which would more immediately bear on the interests of the King's peace, and the good administration of the law all over the country, than some such change as that now proposed; proceeding on some such principle, and pointing to those grand objects of paramount importance—the uniformity, the concentration, the regularity of the jurisdiction to be established;—its extension, so as to bring within its scope all the parts of this great metropolis; and the

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greater frequency of its administration, so as to effect the greatest possible despatch in that most essential branch of our judicature, by making the trial and punishment of offences follow as speedily as possible after their commission. Such were the objects which he had in view, and which he thought were provided for by the Bill which he should have the honour of submitting to their Lordships. When setting forth the districts to which the proposed jurisdiction was to be extended, he ought to have mentioned the amount of population which would be comprised; and he was sure, that by stating the great increase which of late years had taken place in that respect, he should show still more clearly the necessity which existed for the change. The population of London, Middlesex, Southwark, Lambeth, and the Kentish towns proposed to be included in the extended jurisdiction, without taking into consideration those parts of Essex which would also be comprised in the change, amounted at present to between 1,600,000 and 1,700,000, while ten years ago it amounted to no more than 1,300,000; showing an increase of from 300,000 to 400,000. The judicature thus enlarged would extend over a population of from 1,600,000, to 1,700,000; which was equal to many great and even powerful kingdoms, and concentrating in a narrow space one of the densest populations in Europe. He should now move, that the Bill be read a first time; and although he had already communicated with many learned individuals immediately concerned on the subject, in order that time might be given for additional communication, he should then move that it be printed and stand over for further consideration.
The Bill read a first time.