§ The Marquess of Tavistockrose to ask a question on a subject of the very greatest importance. It had been acknowledged, that there were great abuses existing in the Church Establishment. He hoped and trusted his Majesty's Ministers would turn their minds to the timely and necessary reform of those abuses, which was called for by good policy to secure the well being of the Church, for which he begged to say, he entertained the most sincere attachment. He looked especially to see a reformation effected respecting non-residence and pluralities. He was one of those who thought that there could be no greater blessing in a parish than a good resident clergyman exercising, in the spirit of Christian charity, the spiritual and moral duties of his office. He trusted the noble Lord at the head of his Majesty's Government would be able to give some pledge to the effect that, early next Session, he would bring these matters under consideration, in a manner which might satisfy the reasonable expectations of the people. If the noble Lord did not, he feared that the confidence which the public were now disposed to place in his Administration would be considerably diminished. A most reverend Prelate had last Session introduced a Bill on non-residence and pluralities, which did not satisfy the other House of Parliament, and had been rejected accordingly. It was then supposed that the matter would be taken into the hands of Government, but he had not heard of any measure on the subject being in actual progress. He now begged to ask his noble and learned friend (the Lord Chancellor) if it was his intention to proceed with his Bills next Session, having made such modifications and Amendments as they might require.
The Lord Chancelloragreed in the 1055 observations of the noble Marquess, whom he regarded as a most steady and attached friend of the Church. He could assure his noble friend that he had no reason to doubt that Government would continue to pursue that course which they had entered upon, and which they had always expressed their anxiety to pursue. He had already stated his reasons for putting off the Bills. He would not enter into them again further than to say, that the great pressure of business in the House, and the circumstance of his having entered into an extensive correspondence with a great number of clergymen, who had made to him a variety of suggestions on the subject, had been amongst the principal causes which had induced him to postpone the measures for a season. Immediately, however, on the meeting of Parliament next Session, he meant to call the attention of their Lordships to the subject once more, and he could only add, that if there were any other practicable reforms suggested, which might produce benefit to the community, without injuring or compromising the safety of the Church, they should have the fullest consideration from himself and his colleagues.
The Duke of Cumberlandprotested against the use by the noble Marquess of the words "great abuses;" they were harsh, especially when it was remembered that the right reverend Bench had expressed their willingness to reform any evils which might have crept into the system. He begged also to remark, that if their Lordships did away with pluralities, they would alter the whole character of the Church Establishment. For his own part, he was of opinion that there ought to be a Church in every parish; but he considered it a matter of little importance whether the duties were discharged by a rector or curate.
The Bishop of Londonadmitted, that there was a prevalent desire in the country for an alteration of the Establishment, although there was a great difference as to the extent to which it should be carried. He himself did think that the system would admit of some alteration. It would be little short of miraculous if it were otherwise. He, however, protested against the terms "great abuses." In the popular acceptation of these terms there were no great abuses in the Church of England, and none for which it was in truth blame-able. The fact was, that no legal enact- 1056 ment could remove pluralities without destroying the efficiency of the Church in some of its most important branches. Those evils which were styled abuses were not chargeable on the present generation, or indeed on any generation, of the clergymen of the Church of England. They had been inherited from the Papal system, amongst which the existence of lay impropriators was the very worst abuse. No one, he was sure, could have a clearer sense of this fact than the noble Marquess. It would be utterly impossible to do away with pluralities unless a competent provision were secured for the clergyman in every parish, and he saw no way in which this could be effected unless the lay impropriators came forward and contributed their share. This would be a real reform. The Church was not to be blamed for not doing an impossibility. A fresh distribution of the property might, in his opinion, be made to some extent, but he was opposed to a system of equality in that distribution. As for the noble and learned Lord's Bills, he did not think they could pass in their present shape. He would beg, in conclusion, to remark that there was, on the part of the rulers of the Church, and of the majority of the clergy, an earnest desire to give the best consideration to every proposition for the real improvement of the Establishment. They certainly were not prepared to rush headlong into every scheme for alteration which was proposed to them.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he was perfectly ready most respectfully to consider all suggestions which might be made to him from the right reverend Bench touching the details of the Bills, but he would adhere to their principles. As to the terms "great abuses," neither he nor his noble friend would use them in an offensive sense. They only meant evils which now existed in the Establishment.
§ Viscount Melbournesaid, that having been appealed to by the noble Marquess, as well as his noble and learned friend on the Woolsack, to whom the noble Marquess had, in concluding, put his question, he might well be expected to say a few words upon the subject. The noble Marquess had called upon him to pledge himself respecting the course which Government would pursue on the question of Reform in the Church Establishment. He felt there was an inconvenience in giving distinct pledges upon important subjects 1057 at a period of time which might, in some degree, be considered distant. The result not unfrequently was, that measures hastily conceived were as hastily brought forward, and this only because they were promised, the course of proceeding being contrary to the conviction in a man's own mind. He had before now declared himself friendly to the Church of England. He repeated that declaration. He reverenced and loved the wise and tolerant spirit of that Church. He was afraid, however, that in the conflict of religious opinions prevailing at this period, there was some danger of losing that spirit of toleration for which the Establishment had been so long and so eminently distinguished. If he were to speak his own opinions, he would say, that he for one was not dissatisfied with the Church as it stood at present. Such practical evils, however, as might exist in it, he would of course, be glad to see quietly reformed. But though not dissatisfied himself, he was aware that dissatisfaction with the present state of the Establishment, and the desire of reformation, prevailed throughout the community. He was aware, that a cry had been raised from the bosom of the Church herself; and when he found that many, not the least distinguished of the Church's rulers, and a great number of her most exemplary and pious pastors, were of opinion, that the subject required the consideration of Parliament and of his Majesty's Ministers, he could not hesitate to declare for himself and his colleagues, in reply to the noble Marquess, that they would give the subject their most serious consideration. And happy was he to learn, that in this they would have the co-operation and assistance of the right reverend Bench, who were not indisposed to remove those evils and grievances which existed, and on whose exertions in this respect he had the most perfect reliance. In answer, then, to the question which had been put, let him in addition to what had been said by his noble friend on the Woolsack state, that the most anxious and serious attention of the Government would be applied to the consideration of such reforms as might remove the evils and grievances which may now exist in the Church Establishment, without impairing the solidity of the fabric itself.
The Bishop of Derryremarked, that the most reverend Prelate at the head of the Church had set his face against 1058 pluralities; and that since 1828 no encouragement had been given by him to any man to hold two livings.
Lord Ellenboroughregretted, that no measure had been pressed that session for the commutation of tithes; he was not, however, favourable to either of the measures which had been proposed; but there was no subject more deserving the consideration of the Legislature.