Lords Sitting of 30 April 1834

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Archbishop of YORK, the Bishop of WINCHESTER, and Earl DELAWARE, from Cambridge, and other Places,—for Protection to the Established Church.—By the Earl of CHICHESTER and Lords SUFFIELD and CARBERY, from several Dissenting Congregations,—for Relief to the Dissenters.—By the Marquess of ABERCORN, Lord WHARNCLIFFE, the Archbishop of YORK, and the Bishops of CHESTER, WINCHESTER, and LONDON, from a Number of Places, for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.—By the Bishop of WINCHESTER, from Crondall, for Prohibiting the Consumption of Beer on the Premises.—By Earl CAWDOR, from Nairn, for an Alteration in the present System of Church Patronage in Scotland.—By the Earl of CHICHESTER, from Eastbourne, for Rating Owners of Property instead of the Occupiers for the Support of the Poor.—By Lord TEYNHAM, from a Number of Places, for the Repeal of the Union; and from a Number of Places, against Tithes.

CONFERENCE WITH THE COMMONS.
Mr. SpringRice and others from the Commons brought up a message to say, that the Commons desired a conference with their Lordships, on matters of great importance, concerning the stability of the Empire, and the peace, security, and happiness of all classes of his Majesty's subjects. The conference was ordered to be holden, and the following Peers were named Managers on the part of the House of Lords:—The Marquess of Lansdown (Lord President), the Duke of Wellington, the Archbishop of Cashel, the Earl of Winchilsea, Earl Grey, the Earl of Charlemont, and the Marquess Conyngham.
The Marquess of Lansdown, on the return of the managers, said: I have to acquaint the House that your Lordships' managers have met those of the Commons, and have received from them the following Address to his Majesty, to which they desire your Lordships' concurrence. [The noble Marquess read the Address, for which see the Debates of the House of Commons, ante p. 291].

REPEAL OF THE UNION.
Earl Greysaid, he rose to propose that their Lordships should at once agree to the Address which had been communicated to them by the other House of Parliament. In thus proceeding, he might be allowed to observe, it had not been unusual in particular cases, and under particular circumstances, to act with the least possible delay; and what case of greater or more urgent importance than one involving the consideration of the continuance of the Union with Ireland—in other words, involving not merely the prosperity and power, but the peace, the integrity, and the safety of the empire—could be conceived? But great, however, and important as the question was, and urgent as were the motives for coming to a prompt decision on that question, he certainly should not, even though sanctioned by precedent, venture to propose to their Lordships an immediate concurrence in this Address, without allowing further opportunity for consideration, if he had not felt, after the subject had been so long before the public—after the agitation to which it had given rise (the evil connected with which must have pressed closely on their Lordships' attention)—after six days' debate in the House of Commons, when the question was discussed through all its several bearings—he should still not have pressed their Lordships' immediate acquiescence in the Address, had he not felt that, under the circumstances which he had described, he need entertain no doubt whatever of receiving the decided, and the unanimous support of their Lordships. He had said, and he repeated, that this was a question which, in his opinion, affected the peace, the safety, and the integrity of the British empire; for if they looked at what had been done of late years—if they considered the principles on which the agitation of this question had proceeded—if they marked the views that had been taken of it—if they examined the results that had
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been effected, and those which were intended to be produced, by the system of agitation—who could believe, contemplating all these things, that if the same evil spirit which had produced this agitation remained in the full exercise of its influence and its power, that it would not finally, if its career were successful, lead to consequences dangerous to the Monarchy?—who could suppose, that it would not more particularly introduce into that part of the United Kingdom which was peculiarly connected with this question such confusion, such misery, such ruin, as could not easily be described, but which endangered the very existence of the Monarchy? Strong as his feelings on this subject was, and many as were the proofs and arguments which he could bring forward in support of that feeling, still he thought, after the discussion which the question had undergone, that he could throw no new light upon it, and, therefore, it would be but to trespass upon their Lordships' time if he occupied them by proving the truth of that sentiment, with respect to the correctness of which he believed they all felt a firm conviction. Connected as these two great countries were—connected as were these two great branches of the United Empire by the Legislative Union—the severance of that Union would imply not merely a separation of the Government but of the people of both countries—the dissevering of that link which could only be destroyed by the agency of the people themselves—the dissolving of all those ties which now connected the two countries. Suppose this to be effected, what would be the consequence? It would be to expose both kingdoms, thus weakened, to the attacks of foreign enemies; it would be to introduce a state of things which must weaken and lead to the ruin of both countries, but which would more especially be felt by that part of the United Kingdom which it was sought to delude by specious declarations on this question. He could, if it were necessary, go into a very large field of argument and detail on this most important subject; but he did not think that he was called on to express more than these general opinions, which were perfectly in accordance with the Address, and to which, as he had already said, he anticipated their Lordships' unanimous sanction. The Address which had been brought up from the other House stated the whole of

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the question in the clearest manner. In the first place, it declared to their Lordships the absolute necessity of determining to support the Legislative Union which at present existed between the two countries. It next stated, what he had already endeavoured to state, the necessity of preserving that Union, as essential to the strength and stability of the empire. It then stated most emphatically, that the two countries had benefited by the measure, but especially Ireland. On this point it was in his power to show, by irrefragable argument, how false and unfounded was the assertion that the interests of Ireland had been neglected—how untrue were those assertions by which the people of Ireland had been led to believe, that from the Union they had derived nothing but misery—that it had been to them productive of no good whatsoever. The very contrary was the fact. To prove this, let noble Lords examine the state of the commerce and manufactures of that country; let them turn their eyes to these points, and they would find, that in spite of all the mischief of agitation, improvement had been rapidly going on. Let them look to these things, and then put their hands on their hearts and say, whether they believed or not, that the situation of Ireland was materially and substantially improved by the adoption of that Union which they had lately been called on to dissolve. He deeply lamented the impediments which had been thrown in the way of the more beneficial progress of that great measure; he lamented the moral danger which menaced the Government from the continuance of those efforts which had been made to perpetuate agitation; and he felt that they were bound, by every motive of conscience and duty, by the first law of nature, that of self-preservation, by a true regard for the interest of Ireland, by the solemn duty which they owed their- country, to support the integrity of the Crown of these Realms, and to use their best and most strenuous efforts to put down every scheme that was likely to compromise it, and to repel and resist that spirit of insubordination and violence which had been so unfortunately excited in Ireland. That spirit must and should be put down by the strong arm of the law. If it were not repressed, perpetual disturbance must be the inevitable consequence. He trusted, therefore, that their Lordships, having this important
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object in view, would agree to the Address, which was entirely in accordance with that pledge which they had already given at the commencement of the Session, to put an end to that system of intimidation which had worked so much evil, and which would work much more, if it were not put an end to. Acting in the spirit of that declaration, adhering to that determination, he then pledged his Majesty's Government to use the powers with which they were intrusted for the interest of the United Empire, and more especially for the benefit of that deluded people, to mislead whom the strongest endeavours had been made—endeavours which, if successful to the extent desired, would lead to the inevitable ruin of the empire. Perhaps it was scarcely worth while for him to enter, on this occasion, into a charge which had been made against himself, as if he were doing something wrong because he now supported the continuance of the Legislative Union between the two countries, having been one of those who, at the time when the measure was proposed, thought it necessary to oppose it. He did so conscientiously. At that time he acted almost alone in the House of Commons, for Mr. Fox did not then attend in the House. But how stood the case now? He was called on to state his opinion, after the existence of this Union for four-and-thirty years—after it had become an essential link between the two countries, after it had become a measure necessary to be preserved, if they respected the safety of the empire. The severance of that link would, he felt a deep conviction of the fact, tend to the destruction of the empire. Was it, then, improper for him, under those circumstances, either with reference to consistency or to duty, to stand forward for the purpose of preventing that Union from being broken up which had lasted for so many years? It was a thing, perhaps, which at the time should not have been done; but which, having been done, they would by undoing hazard the undoing of the country. It was an ancient maxim in law "quod fieri timuit sed factum valet." He would say, that though great objections existed to the accomplishment of the Union, yet a much greater evil would now result from dissolving it; and it was upon this principle that he resisted the Repeal. Although looking back to the circumstances of the time when the Union was proposed, and the feelings

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which then actuated him, he was not certain that he would not take the same course again, if similarly situated; yet, adverting to the whole of the question, considering what had passed since, and observing the manner in which the Union had benefited Ireland, he was prepared to say, that formerly he was, perhaps, mistaken. He trusted, however, that no imputation would rest on him for avowing a change in his opinion, when there was reason for the change. He had vindicated that course when others had so acted, and in his own case he was prepared to vindicate a change in opinion and in conduct which was obviously justified by a change of circumstances. He repeated, distinctly, that, under present circumstances, he felt himself bound to support that expression of determination so strongly and properly set forth in the Address sent up from the House of Commons. It embraced, first, the determination to resist the proposed breach of the Union; it stated the advantage which the Union had conferred on both countries, but more particularly on Ireland; and it pointed out, which was the last and the most valuable part of the Address, that with the determination to support the Union, there existed an anxious desire to pay the utmost attention to the interests of the people of Ireland, which was undoubtedly one of the first duties of the Legislature. That care and attention had not been paid to the people of Ireland—that their interests had not been consulted—was an assertion as false and unfounded as ever was made. That attention which had hitherto been paid to the interests of the people of Ireland would still be continued; and, as was expressed in the Address, the Legislature, which had already passed many laws, with a view to the advantage and improvement of Ireland, would still persevere in pursuing that course—they would still bring forward and perfect those remedial measures which would finally remove all cause of just complaint. He stated this more particularly in consequence of what had fallen from the noble Baron (Lord Teynham) on the cross-bench. He was glad to find, that the noble Baron was not one of those who would support the Repeal of the Union: but the noble Baron threw out an insinuation, if he did not make an assertion, that hitherto the interests of Ireland had not been fairly attended to. But he defied any person to prove that such was
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or had been the fact during a period of several years. He knew, that much had been done for Ireland—he also knew, that much remained to be done for that country, and Parliament was anxiously engaged in taking the necessary measures for that purpose. No noble Lord was more anxious to proceed in that course than he was; no man was more anxious, in the spirit of good faith and justice, to maintain and secure that Union, on the preservation of which as he had said before, the prosperity of both countries depended. He had now briefly stated his view of the subject, he had also stated the object of the Address, and he did not feel it necessary, on an occasion where he expected no opposition, to trespass further on their Lordships' time. He should therefore conclude, with all the sincerity and warmth of feeling which the occasion called for, by moving an Address which pledged that House to assist his Majesty in his efforts to maintain the integrity of the empire, by maintaining the Legislative Union—to convince the deluded people of Ireland, that the course which they had been engaged in for some time past could only lead, as it had led, to nothing but evil, and that their interests would be best promoted by obedience to the law, and by a due respect for the constituted authorities. That these sentiments would ultimately prevail he felt confident from the vote of the House of Commons last night: that vote, as appeared from the paper on their Lordships' Table, had been carried by a majority almost unparalleled in the annals of Parliament. He felt this more particularly when he looked at the number of Irish Members who took part in the division. The Irish Members, including the teller who voted for the Original Motion, amounted to thirty-nine, while fifty-nine voted against it. That the Irish Members themselves, notwithstanding all the arts which had been employed—notwithstanding the intimidation that had been resorted to at the last election—that the Irish Members themselves, thus pressed, had exhibited a considerable majority in favour of this Address, was a most gratifying circumstance. This proved, that there was not a general feeling against the Union throughout Ireland—it showed that the wealth, the intelligence, the real influence of Ireland, were decidedly in favour of supporting a measure which was necessary to the connexion of the two countries.

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With that conviction, and with an increased confidence in the success of those measures which had been introduced to support the authority of the law, and the just power of the Government—with a deep conviction that the efforts of the Government would, in a certain time, correct, as far as human minds and human means could correct them, any grievances of which the people of Ireland had just reason to complain, he should conclude by moving—"That their Lordships do agree in the said Address, and that the blank be filled up with the words 'Lords Spiritual and Temporal.'"
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he was sure, that it was wholly unnecessary for him, in rising to second the Motion of his noble friend, to detain their Lordships for more than a very few minutes, while he expressed his most cordial and deliberate concurrence in the address which had been proposed. After the eloquent and impressive speech which they had just heard, it might have sufficed for him to recommend that Address simply on its own merits, without further observation, especially as he anticipated an entire unanimity of sentiment on this occasion. What he was now about to urge to their Lordships might, therefore, be considered as wholly unnecessary, if the subject and the question were not of a very peculiar nature. It was true, as his noble friend had said, that this was not an unusual course of proceeding for their Lordships to take. On the last occasion when they went up to the Throne with an address from both Houses of Parliament, they did so to show their loyalty to the Crown, and to express their regret at an attack which had been made on the life of the existing monarch. They were now called on to pursue the same course—to manifest their concurrence with their fellow-subjects of the other House of Parliament, in resisting proceedings which tended immediately and directly, as he in his conscience believed, to endanger the existence not of the Monarch, not of the Peers, not of the Commons—no, but to place in jeopardy the existence of the united empire itself. He could not view the proceedings that had taken place in the House of Commons without rejoicing in that long and elaborate debate, which had laid open and placed in the most prominent point of view every portion of this great subject. He entirely agreed with
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his noble friend, that if anything could rescue the people of Ireland from the situation in which they had been placed—if anything could wean them from those prejudices which had been industriously spread abroad—if anything could open their eyes to the delusion which had been practised on them, and make them form a just estimate of this question—if anything could lead them to distrust those who were making them their tools, in order that they might afterwards make them their dupes, for the sordid gain of those who were thus acting, but also for their own inevitable undoing, it would be effected by that discussion. If anything could show them (and many of them, he believed, were intelligent and reasonable) that the course which they had taken was wrong—if anything could reclaim them from the false guides by whom they had been misled—it was the lesson which had been read to them by the Representatives in a free Parliament of the people of the United Kingdom, when they found only a minority of their own Representatives in favour of the Repeal, and when they also found, notwithstanding the various shades of character, of opinion, and of temper which must naturally be supposed to distinguish the 560 Members for England, Wales, and Scotland, who were assembled on the occasion—when they found, notwithstanding all that diversity of character, in spite of anything that might be gleaned from the chapter of accidents, or picked up from the table of chances—that of all the Members of this island of Great Britain, not one was found to hold up his hand—oh, yes, one solitary exception was found—one individual did hold up his hand in support of the Motion;—when they found all this, it would surely teach them to doubt the assertions of those by whom they had been so long guided. They had been taught, that it was fatal to Ireland, and beneficial to England, to maintain the legislative Union between the two countries; but when a Motion the object of which was to inculcate such a principle was brought forward—a Motion which was supported with no lack of talent—a Motion which had collected together so vast a number of Members—when they found that only one solitary hand amongst the Members for England, Scotland, and Wales, was held up in favour of such a Motion, he did hope and trust that that lesson, that memorable

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lesson had not been thrown away. It was a most strange, a most lamentable thing, that Ireland, endowed by nature in her most lavish mood with so many blessings, with so many natural, with almost every moral, and with so many political advantages—formed as it were for the acquisition of wealth, fitted for all degrees of natural prosperity—should be placed in the situation in which they at present saw her; for, he would ask, could there be a greater proof of her capacity for the most extensive improvement, than the fact that, in spite of the unnatural children of her soil, who checked her resources, who obstructed the bounties of nature, who resisted the designs of Providence—could there be a greater proof of her capacity for improvement, than that in spite of those attempts, of those unnatural attempts, which he hoped would hereafter prove abortive, a manifest, sensible, and rapid progress had been observable in that country in every species of improvement for a considerable time past? All gracious God! Why was not that improvement fully commensurate with the means of the country? Why was it retarded? Why was it stayed? Of what grievance did the people of Ireland complain? They knew not. Of the book of Ireland's wrongs little now remained, except one or two chapters, which would speedily, by the wisdom and justice of Parliament, be erased out of its pages. But all this mischief was occasioned because it so happened that certain individuals, gifted by the same bountiful nature which had bestowed so much on that country—with great talents, and who had added large acquirements to their natural abilities—who were gifted with the capacity of raising themselves to wealth by honest industry, to power by the pursuit of innocent ambition, fitted for useful purposes to the service of the state by following a temperate course—all this mischief was occasioned because those misguided men, as much miscalculating their own happiness, if they knew what happiness was, as they obstructed the happiness of those whom they misled—as much at war with their own interests, if rightly understood, as they were at war with the interests of those subjected to their control—the evil was created, because those men preferred to honest industry and its creditable and honourable gains, a life of restless agitation, supported by a species of personal as well as political mendicancy—a state
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of existence which, such was the honourable feeling implanted in the mind of man, never failed to engender even in those who were driven to it by inevitable necessity, the feeling of unbearable shame. My Lords (continued the noble Lord), there have been geniuses in former times, and one of them, the second of modern poets, has recorded, in his own immortal verse, how he felt when reduced, not by his own idleness or extravagance, but by the political contests of his country, and by the persecution of those whom he had not the power to resist; he was obliged to beg his bread during a season; and far from glorying in it he could hardly live under it, and he has recorded in his own matchless verse that sense of shame under which, though there was no real disgrace in such mendicity, he so keenly laboured when he found himself compelled to receive alms from his fellow-countrymen. He tells us, that this sad necessity made every fibre of his system quiver with shame. I trust, my Lords, that there are few gifted with such genius who will long suffer the shame—who will long brook the indignity of such humiliating courses, or who will long, by such means as those, in order to perpetuate such base and unmanly support, continue to plunge their country in discord. I do hope and trust that this lesson will not be lost upon the people of Ireland, and I therefore look forward henceforth to the renewal of peace and amity and good feeling between all parts of the empire. Of this I am morally certain, my Lords, that when the parties in Ireland who have raised this clamour shall find that the people of England will not join them, or rather their leaders, for it is of their leaders and not of themselves, that we ought to complain—when they find, that they are to receive no support from the rational and intelligent people of this country, they will emancipate themselves from this submission to force and fraud of which they are at present the victims, and that they will join you, my Lords, and the other House of Parliament, not in trying to sever the bonds which link the two nations together, but in receiving and profiting by all the benefits which the perpetuity of those bonds is alone calculated to insure them. I entertain the most sanguine hopes, that henceforth you, my Lords, instead of relaxing in your efforts for the removal of those grievances which still press upon the

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people of Ireland, will redouble those efforts—that you will with greater vigour bestir yourselves in their behalf, and that, above all things, you will hold out the hand of support and friendship to that party, hitherto too insignificant, the middle party in Ireland, of which my noble friend, the Lord Chancellor of that country, has so repeatedly spoken in this House, and with that authority which his patriotism, his experience, and his talents command—a party removed alike from the extreme pride of the one side, and the extreme turbulence of the other—that national, loyal, and patriotic party, for supporting the Union and the common advantage of both countries. I heartily concur in this Address, and I am sure it will meet with your Lordships' unanimous approval. I should to-night have stated only one-half the reasons, and have mentioned only one half the arguments, in favour of the continuance of the legislative Union, if I had not reminded your Lordships that if that Union has done much—that if Parliament has bestowed great blessings upon Ireland—that if it has removed many grounds of complaint, much may still remain to be done, and that the sooner you stir in that business, the sooner the remaining work is set about by the Imperial Legislature, the better will you consummate that of which this night and last night saw—I will not say the beginning but the progress, and the more effectually will your Lordships cement and make perpetual the Union between those two portions of the empire.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that concurring as he did in the Motion of the noble Earl for agreeing to the address adopted by the Commons, he would only trouble their Lordships with one observation. He agreed entirely in the opinion expressed in that address—namely, that the Union had been of the greatest possible utility to the people of both countries, and most particularly to the people of Ireland; and he begged to express his cordial concurrence in that part of the address which stated the determination of both Houses of Parliament to maintain inviolate and undisturbed the legislative Union between Great Britain and Ireland.
The Marquess of Londonderrysaid, that the Union had conferred the greatest advantages upon both countries. He had, on this occasion, to add his humble meed
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of praise to the praise which he was sure the conduct of the noble Earl at the head of the Government would, on this subject, receive throughout the country, and especially in Ireland. This measure would entail greater honour on the noble Earl, and would hand down his name with higher claims to the gratitude of posterity, than anything he had ever done before. It had been said—
"—The evil which men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones."
But whatever evil the noble Earl might have done in formerly resisting the measure of the Union, he had now amply compensated for it, and justifying, as he had fully done, the change of his opinion from that which he entertained thirty-four years ago, he had conferred the greatest good on his country by thus coming forward to stand by the Legislative Union of the two countries. He begged to express his cordial concurrence in the Address.
The Marquess of Westmeathcould not let this occasion pass without expressing the deep gratitude which he owed to the House of Commons for its vote last night. He regarded it as an earnest of that protection which they who were in the minority in Ireland were to receive against their never-ceasing enemies, and he derived the highest gratification from the determination to maintain the Union expressed by the noble Earl in introducing an address which he was sure would meet with the unanimous support of that House.
The Address was agreed to, nem. con.
On the Motion of Earl Grey a conference was had with the Commons to announce to them, that their Lordships had concurred in the Address voted by the Commons respecting the Union.
On the Motion of Earl Grey, the Lords with white staves were ordered to present the Address to his Majesty.