HL Deb 06 May 1833 vol 17 cc960-3
The Duke of Sussex

presented a Petition from the Freemen and Electors of the City of London, praying for some legislative provision for the poor of Ireland. It was signed by the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and ten citizens, according to an old custom of the City of London, and he mentioned this to show-that there was no irregularity in the Petition. Had he received this petition a few days before, he should have felt himself called upon to enter at some length into this important subject, but the Motion which had lately been made in another place, and the Commission of Inquiry which was to be issued made him think that it would be very unadvisable then to raise any discussion on the question. In many points he agreed with the petitioners—on some he had doubts; but on the importance of the subject, as it concerned the tranquillity and best interests of both countries, he had none. It was chiefly in the interest of Ireland that the improvement was demanded, but also in the interest of England, and he certainly was convinced that what benefitted one part of the empire must be advantageous to the other part. He would not say any more than to move that the petition be read at length.

Petition read accordingly. His Royal Highness moved that it be laid on the Table.

The Duke of Hamilton

thought some measure was necessary, and if it was required for England, it was required tenfold for Scotland. Scotland had borne long and patiently the burthen of supporting a numerous body of the Irish poor, and it was high time that something should be done. He believed that in the county of Lanark alone there were 40,000 destitute Irish; and he believed, to make out the whole number which were in Scotland, he might add another cipher. He did not wish to wound the feelings of any Irish nobleman, but he must say, the Irish who emigrated, were the most destitute, the most degraded set of people he had ever beheld. The influx of so many Irish into Scotland, lowered wages, and augmented all the burthens on the land. Let it not be supposed that there was no Poor rate in Scotland. In the West of Scotland they had Poor-rates, and Poor-rates that were felt to be burthensome. Besides the Irish who came over to Scotland only to beg, there came many who had been commercially employed, and many of them had to be supported.

The Earl of Window

had not intended to trouble the House with any observations, if the noble Duke had not set him the example. He was, however, not very sorry that the subject should have been started, for as the operations of Commissioners were generally rather tardy, it was not very likely that the Commission mentioned by the illustrious Duke would bring forward any facts or lay any information before the House in time for the House to act upon this Session; and it was, therefore, as well that this important subject should be touched upon now. It was a question which had begun to excite a very great sensation, amounting almost to clamour among the people, for whose information the periodical Press was continually trumping up lamentable accounts of the state of Ireland, of nightly and daily outrages. This state of things in a country so intimately connected with this, governed by almost the same laws, and partly inhabited by descendants from Englishmen, naturally excited very great surprise in the minds of the people in general, and they were, therefore, ready to believe any account that might be given them in explanation, and therefore, accepted as such the assertions, that all these calamities were caused by the absence of Poor-rates in that country. There seemed to be a very great complaint of the influx of the Irish poor into this country; but they never heard any of these complaints in harvest time, when the English farmers derived much benefit from the service and labour of the Irish emigrant. However, great and manifold as were the evils of the system of Poor-laws in this country, yet, if it could be shown that the introduction of this system, bad and vicious as it was, into Ireland, would bring the Irish labourer into a similar condition with the English labourer, he would decidedly support it, but he was perfectly convinced that it would have a directly contrary effect. The evils which would result from it it was impossible to foresee. If the petitioners wished to do good to Ireland, who so capable of doing it as themselves, possessing, as the various companies of the City of London did, enormous property in the north of Ireland?

The Earl of Haddington

fully concurred in what had fallen from the noble Duke. He was well acquainted with the west of Scotland, and he knew that all the populous and great towns, there complained precisely in the terms made use of by the noble Duke. There was no complaint made against the Irish labourers—it was against, the paupers who came over and were wholly dependant upon the Scotch and English for their support.

Lord Ellenborough

said, the Irish who came over to Scotland, although they might lower the price of labour, contributed by their labour, to the wealth of the country. They were as fully entitled to relief as any Scotchman born.

The Duke of Hamilton

did not complain of the Irish poor who visited Scotland to assist in getting in the harvest, or for the purpose of giving their labour otherwise; what he complained of was, that numbers of the poorer classes were sent over from Ireland, their passage paid, and rewards received by them from a Committee to induce them to emigrate to Scotland. Such persons brought their wives, or those whom they called their wives, along with them, and whilst the men worked, the women begged, and finally the men went away, leaving the women and an increased population behind them.

Petition laid on the Table.