Lords Sitting of 6 May 1833

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Earls of LONSDALE, HARROWBY, and RODEN, by the Bishop of GLOUCESTER, and by Lord BEXLEY, from several Places,—for a Better Observance of the Sabbath By the Dukes of WELLINGTON, RICHMOND, and NORFOLK, by the Marquess of SLIGO, by the Earls of RODEN, ROSEBERY, and CARLISLE, by Lord SUFFIELD, and by the Bishop of LONDON, from a great many Places,—against Slavery.—By the Duke of WELLINGTON, from Bath, for a further Inquiry into the State of the Slaves.—By the Bishops of GLOUCESTER and LONDON, by the Earl of RADNOR, and by Lord WHARNCLIFFE, from Gloucester, Shepperton, Tonbridge, and Yeole, for a Revision and Amendment of the Sale of Beer Act.—By the Bishops of CHICHESTER, and LONDON, and by the Duke of SOMERSET, from several Places,—against a Clause in the Local Jurisdiction Bill—By the Duke of GORDON, from Forque and its Vicinity, for an Inquiry into the Agricultural Distress, and for Relief.—By the Earl of HARROWBY, from the Coach Proprietors, on the Lines of Road between London, Worcester, Hereford, and Gloucester, against granting Acts for the making of Rail-roads.—By the Earl of ROSE BERY, from Dumfries, against the Exclusive Rights and Privileges enjoyed at present by the Royal Burghs in Scotland.—By the Bishop of GLOUCESTER, from the Clergy of the Diocese of Gloucester, and from the Deanery of Stow; and by the Earl of RODEN, from three Places in Ireland,—against the proposed Measure of Church Reform for Ireland.—By the Earl of RODEN, from Kilkenny, for an Alteration in the present System of
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Church Patronage in Scotland; and from Limerick, to give Poor Laws to Ireland—By the Duke of HAMILTON, from the Political Union of Glasgow, for the Extension of Trial by Jury to the Inferior Courts in Scotland.

WIMBLEDON RECTORY.
Lord Lyndhurstpresented a Petition from the inhabitants of Wimbledon, complaining that the Tithes of their parish belonged to the Dean and Chapter of Worcester; that the Curacy, which was a very old one, was worth only 40 l. a-year; and that it had never been increased, though the tithes had gone on increasing till they were of a very considerable amount. The petitioners also stated that the Dean and Chapter had suffered the Rectory House to go to ruin, and the Curate was obliged to hire lodgings at a considerable expense. The noble Lord said, he had no knowledge of these circumstances himself, but the petition was signed by some very respectable men, and, therefore, he thought it his duty to present it.
The Bishop of Rochesterwas not aware that the noble and learned Lord meant to present the petition today, or he would have come fully prepared to state the particulars of the case. However, what he knew on the subject would, he hoped, satisfy their Lordships, that the Dean and Chapter were not to blame in this matter. The fact was, they did not get a farthing of the tithes in question. They were, it was true, the property of the Chapter, but they had been let to a noble Lord, a Member of that House (Earl Spencer) and his family for upwards of a 100 years. All that the Dean and Chapter got was a quit rent of 40 l. a-year. At the same time it was not correct to say, that there was one curate with 40 l. a-year; there were two curates, and each had 40 l. a-year. He had been a member of the Chapter of Worcester for five years and had never received one farthing from the tithes of Wimbledon; whatever money was received was expended on the repairs of the Cathedral. The property was let on a lease of lives, and till the lives fell in, the Dean and Chapter could make no alteration.
Petition laid on the Table.

POOR LAWS (IRELAND).
The Duke of Sussexpresented a Petition from the Freemen and Electors of the City of London, praying for some legislative provision for the poor of Ireland. It was signed by the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and ten citizens,

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according to an old custom of the City of London, and he mentioned this to show-that there was no irregularity in the Petition. Had he received this petition a few days before, he should have felt himself called upon to enter at some length into this important subject, but the Motion which had lately been made in another place, and the Commission of Inquiry which was to be issued made him think that it would be very unadvisable then to raise any discussion on the question. In many points he agreed with the petitioners—on some he had doubts; but on the importance of the subject, as it concerned the tranquillity and best interests of both countries, he had none. It was chiefly in the interest of Ireland that the improvement was demanded, but also in the interest of England, and he certainly was convinced that what benefitted one part of the empire must be advantageous to the other part. He would not say any more than to move that the petition be read at length.
Petition read accordingly. His Royal Highness moved that it be laid on the Table.
The Duke of Hamiltonthought some measure was necessary, and if it was required for England, it was required tenfold for Scotland. Scotland had borne long and patiently the burthen of supporting a numerous body of the Irish poor, and it was high time that something should be done. He believed that in the county of Lanark alone there were 40,000 destitute Irish; and he believed, to make out the whole number which were in Scotland, he might add another cipher. He did not wish to wound the feelings of any Irish nobleman, but he must say, the Irish who emigrated, were the most destitute, the most degraded set of people he had ever beheld. The influx of so many Irish into Scotland, lowered wages, and augmented all the burthens on the land. Let it not be supposed that there was no Poor rate in Scotland. In the West of Scotland they had Poor-rates, and Poor-rates that were felt to be burthensome. Besides the Irish who came over to Scotland only to beg, there came many who had been commercially employed, and many of them had to be supported.
The Earl of Windowhad not intended to trouble the House with any observations, if the noble Duke had not set him the example. He was, however, not very sorry
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that the subject should have been started, for as the operations of Commissioners were generally rather tardy, it was not very likely that the Commission mentioned by the illustrious Duke would bring forward any facts or lay any information before the House in time for the House to act upon this Session; and it was, therefore, as well that this important subject should be touched upon now. It was a question which had begun to excite a very great sensation, amounting almost to clamour among the people, for whose information the periodical Press was continually trumping up lamentable accounts of the state of Ireland, of nightly and daily outrages. This state of things in a country so intimately connected with this, governed by almost the same laws, and partly inhabited by descendants from Englishmen, naturally excited very great surprise in the minds of the people in general, and they were, therefore, ready to believe any account that might be given them in explanation, and therefore, accepted as such the assertions, that all these calamities were caused by the absence of Poor-rates in that country. There seemed to be a very great complaint of the influx of the Irish poor into this country; but they never heard any of these complaints in harvest time, when the English farmers derived much benefit from the service and labour of the Irish emigrant. However, great and manifold as were the evils of the system of Poor-laws in this country, yet, if it could be shown that the introduction of this system, bad and vicious as it was, into Ireland, would bring the Irish labourer into a similar condition with the English labourer, he would decidedly support it, but he was perfectly convinced that it would have a directly contrary effect. The evils which would result from it it was impossible to foresee. If the petitioners wished to do good to Ireland, who so capable of doing it as themselves, possessing, as the various companies of the City of London did, enormous property in the north of Ireland?
The Earl of Haddingtonfully concurred in what had fallen from the noble Duke. He was well acquainted with the west of Scotland, and he knew that all the populous and great towns, there complained precisely in the terms made use of by the noble Duke. There was no complaint made against the Irish labourers—it was against, the paupers who came over and

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were wholly dependant upon the Scotch and English for their support.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, the Irish who came over to Scotland, although they might lower the price of labour, contributed by their labour, to the wealth of the country. They were as fully entitled to relief as any Scotchman born.
The Duke of Hamiltondid not complain of the Irish poor who visited Scotland to assist in getting in the harvest, or for the purpose of giving their labour otherwise; what he complained of was, that numbers of the poorer classes were sent over from Ireland, their passage paid, and rewards received by them from a Committee to induce them to emigrate to Scotland. Such persons brought their wives, or those whom they called their wives, along with them, and whilst the men worked, the women begged, and finally the men went away, leaving the women and an increased population behind them.
Petition laid on the Table.