Lords Sitting of 26 July 1833

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of FALMOUTH, from the Licensed Victuallers of several Places in Cornwall, for an Alteration in the Sale of Beer Act.—By the Marquess of DOWNSHIRE, from Dromore, for the Abolition of Slavery.—By the Earl of SUFFOLK, from the County of Gloucester, for the Establishment of Local Courts.

CHURCH TEMPORALITIES (IRELAND).
The House resolved itself into a Committee on this Bill.
The Chairman (the Earl of Shaftesbury) said, that the question before them still was the 117th clause, where they had left off last night.
Earl Greysaid, he was then prepared to propose to their Lordships the further alterations, which it was the understanding last night should be submitted to them. Before he did that, he wished to advert to what passed last night, and what was likely to be its effect. He wished not to conceal from their Lordships his disappointment and regret, at the decision to which they had come. The circumstances under which that took place, as well as those which attended the division, with the consequences of the result, had placed his Majesty's Ministers in a situation of difficulty and embarrassment. He had thought it necessary, before proceeding with the Bill, to take time to consider with his colleagues what course they should
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pursue, in consequence of the adverse decision to which their Lordships came. The Amendment, in his opinion, was not of very great importance; the effect of it was merely this—that, in the first instance, there was a limitation of those funds, arising from the parishes in which service had not been performed for three years, to the building of churches and glebe-houses, before they were applied to any other purpose; but if it should appear to the Commissioners that it was not necessary so to use those funds for the purpose of the parish, then they were to be transferred to the general fund to be used for the general purposes of the Act. That he understood to be the meaning of the Amendment, and he did not know, except under the circumstances in which the vote was passed, that he should make any objections to it, or that the effect of it would be to materially alter the discretion of the Commissioners. Taking into due consideration the effect of the Amendment in his opinion, though he was far from considering it to be an improvement of the Bill, if it were not intended beyond this, it would not much impair the measure. Such an alteration not effecting any alteration in the general principle of the Bill, he did not consider that it was consistent with the duty which he had taken on himself to abandon the Bill. As the matter stood at present, he should think

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himself bound to go on with the measure—which he considered essential to the protection of the Established Church, and well calculated to get rid of the difficulties to which the Protestant clergy were exposed, if it were carried to a successful conclusion. At the same time he must state, he could not indeed disguise it, that he should do so with a deep sense of the difficulties in which his Majesty's Government were placed, and certainly feeling, if further alterations were made in the same sense, that he must again take it upon him to consider how far it would be consistent with the duty which he owed to his country and himself, and duly considering his situation, whether he could persevere in further recommending the measure to their Lordships for adoption. He would say, while he would not suffer any alteration to be made which would impair the efficacy of the measure, that he was prepared to go on with the Bill, and propose those further alterations which the Amendments of last night had made necessary. It had been his most earnest wish and endeavour, as far as he consistently could, in relation to that paramount duty of maintaining in full force the main principles of the Bill, to make every concession that was in his power. He must confess that, having conceded the material points of objection that applied to this particular clause, that it was to him a cause of great mortification and regret, that the Amendment was insisted upon which he felt himself obliged, after going to the great extent of concession which he had gone, to oppose. He would then proceed to the further consideration of this clause, and also to what was stated by the right reverend Prelate, assenting in those observations as he did to the general principle of the clause. If any principle of the clause was infringed by the Amendment of the right reverend Prelate, it would then be a question with him how far it was consistent with his honour and duty further to proceed with the Bill. Now there were two points on which alteration had been required—the first was, that the Commissioners should have power to give salaries not only to the incumbent and officiating minister of the adjoining parish, for doing anything that was required in the suppressed benefices, but also that they should have power, if they thought it necessary, of appointing a curate to perform the duties in the suspended benefice. The other point was,
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the saving the rights of the Bishops. With respect to the proposition made by the most reverend Prelate to which he found it necessary to object—that of giving the Bishop an absolute control—because that would produce a conflicting authority, his Grace was pleased to agree to the proposition which he had made, and to state that he considered it an improvement. To meet those views, and to further the objects of the most reverend Prelate, he had now to propose some Amendments to the subsequent part of the clause. The first alteration he should propose, would be to give power to the Commissioners to give salaries to the incumbent of the adjoining parishes, and also to the curates, if it should be thought necessary to appoint them; and, secondly, he should propose, in conformity with the system of the Bill, that they should admit the Bishop or Archbishop of the diocess, on any question of suspending a living, to a seat at the Board of the Commissioners, and that he should, pro hac vice, vote and decide with the Commissioners; and the same should take place on any question of removing the suspension. He would stale the Amendments he proposed in the clause to carry these objects into effect. The noble Earl concluded by proposing Amendments accordingly, which were agreed to.
The remaining clauses of the Bill with the schedules were agreed to.
To House resumed.