Lords Sitting of 5 July 1833

MINUTES.
Petitions presented By the Marquess of LON DONDERRY, from St. James's, Clerkenwell, for Removing all present Restrictions from Dramatic Representations at the Minor Theatres.—By the Duke of CLEVELAND, from Bath, for Poor Laws to Ireland.

THE THELLUSSON PROPERTY.
Lord Lyndhurstrose for the purpose of moving the Suspension of the two Standing Orders, Nos. 95 and 99, relating to private Bills, in order to introduce the Bill, the outline of which he had last night stated to their Lordships. He thanked his noble friend (the Earl of Shaftesbury) for pointing out to him this course; and he was fully persuaded, that his noble friend was merely induced by a sense of the necessity of adhering to the Standing Orders, when he rose last night to object to the Bill being read a first time.
Lord Wynfordsaid, he could not concur in the propriety of suspending the Standing Orders of the House in the present instance without some reasons being adduced. No facts had yet been stated to the House why these Standing Orders should be suspended. It was unnecessary for him to dilate upon the usefulness of the Standing Orders; they had been adopted and acted upon, and had been found highly advantageous. With regard to the Standing Orders in question, their Lordships were aware that there required, before a private Bill could be presented, a petition to have been previously presented, embodying the facts to be proved, which petition was to be subsequently referred to two of the Judges, and then the Bill, upon the report of the Judges being favourable, was laid before their Lordships for consideration. With

147
regard to the will of the testator, he was ready to admit that it sprung from vanity, he being desirous of being the founder of a most wealthy family. Had it not been for that vanity his name would have been buried in oblivion. The House, however, had to take care, in endeavouring to frustrate the intentions of the testator, in carrying into execution that piece of vanity, that injustice was not done to distant parties, who would be hereafter beneficially interested in the property bequeathed by him. It was, therefore, necessary that great caution should be observed. No reason had been assigned to call upon their Lordships to depart from their usual course of proceedings; and in opposing the suspension of the Standing Orders, he begged to add, that he should ask no vote upon it, and that in making the remarks he had, he had done so only from a sense of duty, for he was not unaware of the great hardship which the relations of the testator experienced from the manner in which he had thought fit to leave his property.
The Earl of Eldonsaid, it was not his intention, on the present occasion, to detain their Lordships at any length, especially as there was another important subject to be discussed that evening. In the course of his experience he recollected but one occasion of a case of an analogous nature to the present, in which the Standing Orders had been suspended, and he would proceed to state the circumstances of that case. A Bill was brought into their Lordships' House by the Marquess of Hastings to repeal the provisions of an Act which had been brought into Parliament by that noble Lord's father. It was contended, on that occasion, that the case ought to be sent to the Judges before the Bill could be entertained. The Bill, he ought to state, had reference to Scotch as well as English estates. But here came the question; which Judges were to be consulted?—the Scotch or English? It was said, that the English Judges could not regulate the Scotch property; so neither could the Scotch Judges the English property. It was, however, necessary either to refer to the English or Scotch Judges, or both, it was insisted, in order to have the necessary information upon the subject. He well recollected, however, that the House did him the honour to believe, that he knew something of both English and Scotch law as to the disposition of property
148
in both countries, and he was appointed to report upon the case, which was referred to him, to the House. With regard to the proceedings of their Lord-ships on the matter brought before them, as respected Mr. Thellusson's will, he recollected that their Lordships were anxious to set it aside; but they felt that they could not interpose, for the law had given him the power to make his will, which had been decided was a valid testament. And what were their Lordships now required to do, supposing the Bill were introduced? Why neither more nor less than in effect to revoke that will. It was asking the Legislature to destroy a portion of the will at least. There was another reason why the case ought to go before a Judge, that an investigation might be made into all the facts. He (the Earl of Eldon) had never heard a single complaint when he presided in the Court of Chancery as to the costs and charges with respect to the suit, and he was so startled on hearing his noble and learned friend make the representation he had done last night about the costs and charges of the administration of the property of the testator, that he determined to make an inquiry this morning into the subject. He had done so, and the result was, that great misapprehension upon that topic had arisen. If he had seen his noble and learned friend this evening on entering the House, he should have made him acquainted with the result of that inquiry, and should have assured him that he had been misinformed upon the subject of those costs and expenses. Having said thus much, he would only add a wish, that his noble friend near him (the Earl of Shaftesbury), would state what his experience was with regard to suspending the Standing Orders in question.
The Earl of Shaftesbury,having been appealed to, had no difficulty in stating what his experience was upon the subject. He only recollected another instance in addition to that just stated by his noble and learned friend, and that was with respect to a Bill relating to the Sergeant's Inn property, which was introduced during the last Session of Parliament. Now the Judges having property in that Inn, it was considered unnecessary to refer the case to any one in particular, and the Standing Order was accordingly dispensed with. He did not offer a single word on the present occasion with respect

149
to the object of the Bill which his noble and learned friend had last night detailed; but How he might be permitted to suggest, that the object might be equally attained by referring the Bill to the Judges, as though the Standing Orders were suspended, provided that object could be legally attained. He must, however, earnestly entreat their Lordships to consider well ere they suspended the Standing Orders, lest, by so doing, a precedent should be established.
The Lord Chancellor, in reply to the observation made by his noble and learned friend, who had asserted, that he had heard no complaints as to the cost and charges of administering the property of the testator during the period that he presided in the Court of Chancery, said, he was not surprised that his noble and learned friend should have heard no such complaint; nor would he even up to the present moment, had he still continued to hold the Great Seal. But it was not the case with him (the Lord Chancellor), nor his noble and learned friend who had immediately preceded him (Lord Lyndhurst), for they had heard complaints of that description. No complaint, however, had reached his noble and learned friend (the Earl of Eldon). It was not likely that any should reach his ears from the Masters'-office for the clear sum of 700 l. or 800 l. a-year was there reaped owing to the existence and continuance of the suit. It was counted upon as a yearly income to that amount in the Masters'-office. Besides this, the other officers in the Court of Chancery, who had as good reasons for their silence, would be naturally as slow to complain. Then it had been argued in that Court, that the accumulation would be immense. Instead, however, of the notion being realized that the property would accumulate to 90,000,000 l. or 100,000,000 l. in the coarse of years—that it would be augmented to an extent, which, by possibility, might be dangerous to the Constitution—the increase had been so small as to be scarcely perceptible; and an extraordinary power was found to exist in a certain Court to retard this perilous accumulation, and render chimerical all the fears entertained of an overthrow, by means of this monstrous fund, of the established order of things. The accumulation of the property would not be checked by the Bill, it would go on to the full as rapidly, or more so, than
150
at present. It was clear, thierefore (accumulation being tile testator's object), that 'neither in letter nor in spirit would the will be violated by the measure. He trusted that the House would show itself disposed so far to entertain the Bill as to speed it in its progress. This was a peculiar and single case, which could never again occur; consequently, the present proceeding could not be drawn into a precedent, inasmuch as no ground for its repetition could arise. He could not but think, where a great deal of substantial justice and mercy was to be rendered to an unfortunate family, that it would be a pity to allow mere forms to stand in the way of the proceeding.
The Earl of Mansfieldobserved, that the question was not as to the merits of the Bill, but whether there was anything in its character, or the circumstances connected with it, that formed a justification for suspending those Standing Orders which had been adopted for the protection of the rights of individuals. He confessed that he could see no grounds for doing so. He called upon their Lordships to proceed with caution, and refrain from an infringement on those rules and orders which were intended to guard the rights and property of individuals, and prevent the House from being taken by surprise.
Lord Ellenboroughthought the question was one of the greatest importance; and suggested, that in order to get over the difficulties in the way of their Lordships in granting the sought-for relief, the peculiar circumstances of the case might be embodied in a Resolution, recommending, on account of those peculiar circumstances, the suspension of the Standing Orders. This, he thought, might obviate the objection to the suspending of the Standing Orders, and enable their Lordships to give the relief sought for by the family of Mr. Thellusson.
Lord Lyndhurstsaid, that the object was to prevent the funds from being unnecessarily wasted, and also to give relief to the family who were in a state of destitution. The costs had already amounted to the enormous sum of 105,000 l. The costs had been averaged by the Accountant-general by taking the average of the last twelve years, and it was not unfair to assume, that they would go on in the same ratio for the future. It was said by his noble and learned friend (Lord Eldon) that no complaint had ever been made

151
upon the subject of these costs. Certainly not, for they were only the regular costs; but it was because they were only the regular costs that the necessity became greater for putting an end to them. Making the calculation upon the average he had Stated, the taxed costs for the whole period, from the time the will was made until it should expire would amount to a sum no less than 250,000 l. The course he proposed for adoption was not without precedents. In the case of the Marquess of Hastings all the Standing Orders had been suspended. In the case of Sir J. Soane's Museum Bill the Standing Order for referring the matter to the Judges had been suspended. He held in his hand no less than fifteen cases, which he had lighted upon only that morning, in which most important Standing Orders had been suspended. He would also request their Lordships to recollect that this case could never be made a precedent for others. It was an insulated case. Such a case could never occur again, for an Act of Parliament had been passed to prevent in future such a disposition of the property. It was said, that the object of the Bill was to run counter to the testator's will; but he denied the assertion, the very opposite of which was the fact. By the present mode of administering the property in the Court of Chancery, a certain amount was absorbed yearly. Now, the testator never intended this; he did not mention the Court of Chancery in his will. Surely, then, it was not interfering with the will to say, that the property was no longer to be so administered, that 5,000 l. a year should be so transferred to Masters, Clerks, and Solicitors, when it might be better devoted to the necessities of a family which was suffering great privation and distress. He should move, that the Standing Orders be suspended with the intention of pressing his Motion to a division.
The Duke of Wellingtonmeant to vote for the proposition of his noble and learned friend. It might have been wiser on the part of the family to have made an application in the earlier part of the Session, and, by petitioning, to have proceeded according to the rules and orders of the House; but it was probable that they might not have been able to obtain at an earlier period than the present the requisite signatures to such a petition. To allow, therefore, another Session to pass without
152
affording relief to this family, was, what he felt confident, none of their Lordships would wish, and he hoped they would not refuse their sanction to the course proposed to be adopted.
The Earl of Harrowbysaid, that the only ground stated by the noble Duke for agreeing to the Motion was, the lateness of the Session, which might otherwise prevent this family from obtaining the relief they sought for. He could not think, however anxious he might be to afford relief, that he should be justified on such grounds in consenting to a suspension of the Standing Orders.
Earl Greynever found himself in greater difficulty than upon that occasion. He confessed that he was much struck with the statement of the noble and learned Lord, and he was most anxious to set aside this unjust and cruel will. He had every disposition to give facility to the object in view; but he felt the difficulties in the way of their Lordships very strongly. The merits of the question appeared to him to have nothing to do with the present Motion. The question before their Lordships was simply this—whether the Standing Orders of the House, which had been framed with the view of protecting the property of the kingdom, should be suspended, without a proper and sufficient reason for so doing being assigned. If no sufficient reason could be assigned, standing there as guardians of the property of the country, they would do well to pause before they suspended the Standing Orders of the House. He had heard nothing whatever to show, that the family might not have signed a petition at an earlier period. He felt, therefore, obliged to state, that, with every disposition to give relief to this family, he found the standing orders in his way; and he did not know how their Lordships could get over this difficulty without doing that, which he conceived, would be a dereliction of their duty. He thought the better course to be pursued, in order to relieve their Lordships from this difficulty, would be, for the noble and learned Lord to withdraw his Motion for the present, in order to give an opportunity to the family to present a petition to the House.
Lord Lyndhurstsaid, that on the previous evening he had stated, that he should be able to present a petition signed by all the adult members of the family, but he was afraid he could not present a petition signed by all the parties concerned. There

153
were parties interested as trustees to this property; and he had a letter from one of them—a Mr. Wood, in which he willingly consented, to what he conceived to be a fair and just arrangement. He feared, however, that he could not present to their Lordships any hope of a similar sanction from the others.
The Duke of Hamiltonwas inclined to go as far as possible, in order to give relief to the family, but he had a strong objection to vote for suspending the Standing Orders, which he conceived ought to be held sacred. If the question could be brought forward separated from a violation or suspension of the Standing Orders, he should be ready to give it his best consideration.
The Marquess of Salisburybelieved, that every noble Lord was willing, if possible, to give the desired relief. The whole of the family were petitioners to their Lordships. They had not, he admitted, signed a formal petition, because the law required that such a petition should be signed by the trustees of the property, who were unwilling to sign such a petition. Their Lordships could readily understand, that the trustees, not being members of the family, had an interest in spending large sums in newly furnishing houses that ought to be sold, and also in shooting over certain lands, which interests would induce them to oppose a measure like the present. He should certainly give his vote that the Standing Orders should be suspended. The property, he believed, was managed in a most expensive manner, and an opportunity ought, therefore, to be given for their Lordships to examine evidence at the bar of the House upon the subject.
The Marquess of Lansdownfelt the greatest anxiety to afford relief to the family which was thus suffering under the administration of the law; but still he thought it was the duty of their Lordships, after laying down standing orders for the conduct of business, to adhere to those orders as closely as possible, and to depart from them only where injustice would be done by adhering to them. He could well understand, that the trustees might have reasons for not concurring in the petition, and there might yet be ample reasons why the House should dispense with the signatures of the trustees; but before their Lordships did even that, it was their duty to satisfy themselves, that all the adult members of the family were ready to sign such a petition. He would not object to
154
the Motion if their Lordships were in formal possession of that, which they knew already from the statement of the noble and learned Lord. When their Lordships should be in possession of such information, then would be the time, in his opinion, to consider whether they would not waive the signatures of the trustees. His object was, that their Lordships should proceed upon the foundation of an authentic document, and he hoped, therefore, that their Lordships would require that a petition should be presented.
Viscount Melbourneentirely agreed in the proposition, that the Standing Orders should not be suspended unless upon very strong grounds; but he begged to ask their Lordships, if there could be stronger grounds than were laid down in the statement of the noble and learned Lord, for adopting such a course. This was a case which had long been a disgrace and a scandal to the country. The case was one of such a character that he hoped their Lordships would not allow a regard for mere forms to stand in the way of the administration of substantial justice. These forms would not only stand in the way of, but would even defeat justice, if it should be found eventually impossible to comply with the Standing Orders.
The Duke of Buckinghamobjected to forming a new precedent—that of proceeding in such a matter without any previous petition. He had, however, no wish to negative the proposition; but why not amend it I Why not move as an Amendment, that a Committee be appointed to consider whether any grounds could be shown for such a suspension of the Standing Orders? If he were forced to give a vote as the question at present stood, he must vote against suspending the Standing Orders.
The Earl of Riponsaid, that their Lordships were at present not in possession of the sentiments of the family of the testator; and he suggested, therefore, that the noble and learned Lord should abstain from pressing his Motion until a petition from the family should have been presented. If the noble and learned Lord should not adopt this course, he should feel it his duty to vote against the noble Lord's proposition.
Lord Lyndhurst,after what had fallen from the noble Lords, who had spoken in the course of the discussion, would suggest, that the better course to be adopted would be to adjourn the debate until Thursday

155
next, in Older to give an opportunity of presenting a petition in the mean time.
The debate adjourned.

EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER,
The Marquess of Lansdown moved the Order of the Day, for the House to take into consideration the Resolutions agreed to by the House of Commons on the subject of the East-India Company's Charter. The Order was read, and the Resolutions having also been read,
The Marquess of Lansdownsaid, that he had then to call upon their Lordships to consider of the propriety of concurring; in Resolutions, already agreed to by the House of Commons, upon the subject of the East-India Company's Charter. He was perfectly aware, in offering himself to their Lordships' attention, that, important as the subject certainly was, yet it was one, whether on account of the remoteness of the interests concerned, or whether because of the confidence reposed upon the authorities acting in that quarter of the world, that had not often been brought under their Lordships' consideration; and, whenever it had been so brought under the notice of the House, it had seldom found a willing audience. He persuaded himself, however, that, if ever there was a time when so remote a subject could engage their attention—if ever there was a time when their Lordships might be expected to bear patiently with those who sought to interest them in details concerning such a remote country, consisting, indeed, of the largest territory possessed by any European Power, and inhabited by 100,000,000 of people—that time was the present; when their Lordships were called upon to consider and determine what should be the character of the government, and what the principles of the system, to be established for regulating such a country and such a people. He trusted, therefore, that he should experience the indulgence of their Lordships, while he trespassed on their attention, to explain, though it would be very imperfectly, the principal outlines of that system, which was contained in the Re solutions before them, and which his Majesty's Ministers proposed for the adoption of the Legislature. It was quite unnecessary for him to go into an historical review of the growth and progress of the power and commerce of the East-India Company since its first establishment in
156
the sixteenth century, through the successive renewals of its Charter at different intervals; it was sufficient for him to say, that the renewals were at all times the subject of discussion, which brought into active, if not angry collision, all the political and commercial interests involved in the question, and all the diversities of principle which at the different periods had agitated and divided the Legislature. All that was necessary for him to observe on this point was—and it was an observation that applied to all the renewals of the Charter, and all the acts arising out of them—that Parliament had, when called upon to legislate on the subject, however confident it might be in the justice and policy of what it was about to do, never sought to bind posterity, or to perpetuate the principles upon which it acted; but, anticipating the possibility of changes in that empire, as well as in the state of this country, which might lead to the necessity of changes, equally as great, in the Charter, though it could not, by any possibility, anticipate the very extraordinary changes which had come to pass, the Parliament had always renewed the Charter for short periods only, thus, not only inviting, but binding Parliament to a frequent reconsideration of the subject, and of all the principles on which the Charter should be renewed, and the trade and possession of India preserved. He had also to state, that there had been a frequent, if not a perpetual attempt, on the part of individuals, sometimes under the character of merchants, but sometimes under that of interlopers, to share in the profits of the trade; while, on the part of the community, frequent attempts had been made to obtain the repeal of the Charter. Looking at all these circum stances, and at all the knowledge and experience that had been acquired of that part of the world, directed, too, by their improved acquaintance with the best interests of commerce, their Lordships were called on, by these Resolutions, to adopt greater changes than had hitherto been made in the administration of East-Indian affairs. To those changes he was now about to call their attention. The first was, that the trade with China should be entirely open; the second, that the Company should no longer continue that trade as a Company, although they were to be invited to retain the management of the alfairs of India, in the name and on the

157
behalf of the Government of this country. He should begin his observations with that part of the subject which related to the trade of China. It was one of the most extraordinary features attending; the history of the East-Indian dominion, that so large a branch of commerce as one involving the interests of 300,000,000 of people (at least such he was informed was the opinion of those who had the best opportunity of knowing China) should be the exclusive possession of one body of merchants; and that so large a population as was contained in India, should be a mere dependency in the hands of one trading Company. That trade, he admitted, had grown and flourished under the superintendence of the Company. It was now nearly a century and a-half since those extensive regions had been discovered to grow that article which was the chief object of our trade with them. It was about that time, in the reign of Charles 2nd, that the well known Mr. Pepys, then Secretary to the Admiralty, mixed his cup of China grain, of which he gave so lively an account in his Memoirs, as a curious experiment. That was the earliest introduction of a herb of which thirty millions of pounds were now imported into this country, which was now the cheap luxury of both rich and poor, and cheaper, he hoped, it would soon be, as it was the chief comfort and refreshment at the fire-side of the humblest cottage in every part of the kingdom. He had said, that this trade had flourished under the Company. He was not desirous of withholding his tribute of praise from the Company's officers, to whom at different times this trade had been much indebted, but he could not go the length of admitting, with some who had taken part in these discussions, that the monopoly of the Company was the only talisman by which the trade could be opened to this country, or that the Company was the only channel by which the growth and produce of that great and fertile empire could be conveyed to that people who were the most desirous to consume, and the most able to purchase the article. Notwithstanding that opinion, which he entertained now, and which he had ventured to form many years ago, in opposition to some of the oldest and greatest authorities, when Chairman of the Committee of Foreign Trade, which investigated at that time the whole of the subject, yet
158
not being prepared, from the then state of the Charter, to come forward with any specific recommendation, or any practical law, he had waited with anxiety to see his opinions confirmed by experience, which was the only satisfactory test of their truth. It so happened, that a combination of circumstances had occurred to afford their Lordships the opportunity of judging, not by theories, but by the evidence of facts—from the state of our commerce with Canton—and from the success of those adventurers whom circumstances had brought into those ports, independently of the Company, what was the degree of success with which the trade of China might be carried on if conducted by individuals. It was true, that the incorporated Company had continued to trade thither, but it was also true, that others had gone thither to trade—Europeans, as well as traders from the United Stales of America, and, finally, the private traders of India; and it should be made apparent to their Lordships, that not only one, but all these private traders had carried on their commerce to greater advantage than the East-India Company had been able to do, and that the East-India Company's trade had been a falling trade during the latter part of the time, while that of the persons he had mentioned had been an improving and flourishing trade. Ha hold in his hand a paper which would show the results of the imports of the East-India Company during the first and last years of the period that had elapsed since the last renewal of their Charter. The imports made by the Company into the port of Canton in the years 1813 and 1814, were valued at 5,646,000 dollars. In the years 1831–2, the last during which, under the present Charter, the accounts could be made up—at this time, the value of the imports was taken at 3,691,688 dollars. During the same periods the traders of the United States had imported goods into the port of Canton, to the amount, in the years 1815–16, of 2,527,500 dollars, and in 1831 and 1832, to the amount of 3,050,937 dollars. He was aware that, in the American trade, there had been great fluctuations in the intermediate time, but in the result, and on the whole it had been a gaining trade. He could refer to the evidence of Mr. Bates on this subject, and it would appear, that the American trade had been the means of carrying out a great quantity

159
of English manufactures to Canton, a proof, indeed, that the trade with that place, though not carried on by the Company, was the means of administering largely to the employment of the industry of this country. But that was not the only part of this case which was entitled to their Lordships' attention, for during the same time an extensive field of enterprise had been opened under the very eyes of the Company, by the individual merchants of this country, which might be proved on reference to the official account of the imports into China. He would refer to the Company's exports from India, and compare its amount to that of the exports made by individual merchants during the same period. In 1814, the exports of private traders from India into China amounted in value to 6,035,128 dollars—while, in 1831–32, it was more than doubled, for it reached 16,848,553 dollars. To show that the East-India Company's trade with Canton was a losing trade, as well as a declining trade, he should quote a paper, showing how much their profits had diminished between the years 1823 and 1832. In the former year it was 1,117,532 dollars; in the latter it was 683,844. He, therefore, thought it impossible to maintain the argument which had frequently been maintained upon high authority—namely, that the character of the government of China was utterly incompatible with individual enterprise and industry. He believed, that this was one of the many instances which occurred, and which were not confined to Europe and the East, but seemed to be in immediate operation every where, that the maxims of Government in many places seemed to say one thing, while in practice the conduct of Government materially differing from its maxims was another. If their Lordships would consider what was the character of the Chinese people, and the field of commerce in which they were engaged, they would find that whatever was the principle of Government with respect to trade, the disposition to trade was the characteristic of the people, and must be the real wish of the Government. There was little doubt, that if in the Court of the Emperor any one should adopt and express the opinions that the people of the north stood in need of the woollens, or the people of the south required the cottons of England, or that any part of the empire wanted the skins of America, or that the
160
people on the other side of the globe were better able to pay for their tea than their own mandarins, there could be little doubt that such opinions once regarded as nothing less than heretical might be prosecuted by a Chinese Attorney General in the courts of the celestial empire, and would no doubt be punished; but he believed it was not less true, that from the highest to the lowest mandarin, all acted as if they felt the persuasion that foreign commerce was necessary to the prosperity of the Chinese empire. The whole of the Eastern Archipelago was in a state of activity by their labours. Mines were worked, pepper was grown, sugar was planted, and the whole of the agriculture of Java was performed by them, and all the products of these various branches of their industry were carried from place to place in Chinese junks, upon as extensive and perfect a system of commerce as ever was developed by any people in the world; and the Chinese government, despotic as it was, did not dare actually to oppose itself to the wishes of the people. When the noble Lord opposite alluded to opium as one of the articles prohibited by the Government, he had, in truth, adverted to a fact confirming the position already laid down; for, in opposition to the nominal prohibition of that drug, there was really a most extensive use of it, and the Chinese government were not able to prohibit it, the prohibition being contrary to the wishes of the Chinese people. It was true that it had been made the subject of consideration, but the Report addressed to the empire, in the very respectful words customary among the people of the East, declared, that "if it pleased the Emperor, he might undoubtedly extinguish the trade of the Europeans, but that such a course would be inconsistent with the tenderness his Majesty had been accustomed to show to foreigners, and that it would be more in accordance with that tenderness to allow them to trade, but to impose a duty upon the articles they imported." That Report was not very far inferior in knowledge of political economy to that which we had shown when twenty years ago we first discovered that a wholesale system of prohibition was injurious, and when we imposed duties on articles in its stead. In the same manner there were laws in China which prohibited the advance of money by Europeans to Chinese; did that law take effect? There

161
were papers on their Lordships' Table which proved quite the contrary. It was known that, under the eye of the authorities, there were continually loans made by Europeans to enable the Chinese to trade; and the East-India Company having diminished the amount of their advances, the Americans who had interfered in so many ways, and done so much injury to the Company's trade, had stepped in and made large advances to individuals in China for the purpose of carrying on trade. He thought he had said enough to satisfy their Lordships, looking both to facts and to figures, that it was time that individual enterprise and British trade and commerce should be fully admitted into that great field which they could most usefully cultivate; enlarging the demand for British manufactures in China, and extending that commerce which had rather decayed of late years while exclusively in the hands of the East-India Company. By their large importations the industry of the country would be benefited, and from the competition thus occasioned a great reduction in the price of tea would, he believed, necessarily follow. It might be said, as in fact it had been argued, that the private trade was owing to the protection afforded by the East India Company's Factory; but from a very curious correspondence which had taken place at Canton, it would seem, that the Chinese, at least the Hong merchants, knew very well the nature of the Company, that they expected the intended alteration, and anticipated from it no other difficulty, but that of providing a proper Magistrate to act in the place of the Factory, and decide any disputes which might arise between individuals. To that correspondence, which was to be found in the Report presented to the House of Commons, he should beg to refer their Lordships. That would show, that the Chinese had a full knowledge of our trade, and that, far from desiring the continuance of the present system, they wanted nothing but that which their Lordships must endeavour to provide—namely, the means of regulating and ordering the proceedings among Europeans, so that there might be some responsible authority. In Canton, notwithstanding all that was said of the unwillingness of the Chinese government to give encouragement to commerce, there were facilities for carrying on trade which were scarcely exceeded in the port of London,
162
nor even in the port of Liverpool, which, of allothers in the world, was believed to otter the greatest advantages to the influx of foreign trade. Their Lordships, no doubt, would act with due respect to the general principles of commerce, and, adopting them as guides, as well as taking advantage of their experience, they would consult the best interests of the country by adopting the Resolutions now proposed to them, and throw open the China trade, taking only those precautions which would ensure the establishment of an authority before which the disputes of the Europeans and Chinese might be determined. It would appear, as he must further remark, from the papers on the Table of the House, that in the mode of conducting their trade, and sending their remittances—for the Company had imported more from China than they had exported thither—they had been obliged to lean on the aid of private merchants—a fact, which showed in a curious manner, how monopoly was often compelled to depend on free trade for assistance. Having thus spoken on the question of the China trade, he now came to the subject of the East Indies themselves. If the trade in China was, as he had shown it to be, a falling trade, that which had been carried on in the East Indies was a losing trade altogether. A serious apprehension had been entertained, and even stated in Parliament, by a noble friend of his, now, unhappily, lost to that House, but whose memory would be long gratefully esteemed by his fellow-countrymen—he meant Lord Grenville—an apprehension had been entertained, and stated by that noble Lord when the East-India Charter was last renewed, arising out of that anxiety for the interests of the commerce of the country which had always distinguished him, that by the power left under the last Charter to the East-India Company, the interests of the private trader, though to a certain degree consulted, might be and would be defeated altogether. But so powerful was the genius of free trade—so great was the energy of the English merchant—that they had falsified all the predictions of his noble friend, and had compelled the East-India Company to retreat as a trading company before the superior power, activity, and industry of individuals. He would stale as briefly as he could the result of this competition. He had drawn it up in averages of five years, and he knew of

163
no other way in which the futility of the attempts of the East India Company to carry on trade as a trading company could be so forcibly exposed as by comparing the amount of their exports to the East, and their imports from the East, with the amount of the exports and imports of the private traders. The average amount of the five years ending 1818, of the value of cottons of every description, printed and plain, exported to the East by the East India Company was 110 l.; the average amount of the cottons exported during the same time by the private trader was 87,168 l. The average amount of the same article for the five years ending in 1823, was by the Company 342 l., by the private trader 217,046 l. In the five years ending with 1828, the average value of the exports of cottons of the Company amounted to 31 l., and of the private traders to 224,381 l. In 1830, the Company exported nothing, and the private traders exported to the value of 185,940 l. Although it was natural to select the article of cotton, as that was a trade in which this country was most deeply interested, yet it must not be imagined that this was all, for he could state the same with respect to other branches of trade, which, though not of equal magnitude, yet were most important. He would take the article of earthenware. In 1830, the Company ex ported 42,000 pieces of earthenware, and the private trader, in the same year, 1,245,860 pieces, showing, that in this trade as in that of cotton, the private traders had been much more extensively employed than the Company. He next came to speak of what the Company had imported from the East, except China, and of what the private traders had imported, and he found that there, although the Company were accustomed to make large purchases, yet the produce was larger on the part of the private trader. In 1814, the exports of cotton wool from their own dominions by the Company amounted to 366,691lbs.; the quantity exported by the private trader amounted to 2,483,627lbs. In 1830, the exports by the Company amounted to 620,330lbs.; by the private trader to 11,892,536lbs. In the same manner the exports from their own dominions of indigo, in 1830, amounted, by the company, to 2,154,341lbs.; and, by the private trader, to 5,772,516lbs. In the year 1814, the export of refined Sugar by the Company was 412,40lcwt.;
164
and by the private trader, in the same year, it was only 3,148 cwt.; but, in the year 1830, the export by the company was 158,358 cwt.; and by the private trader, in the same year, 660,729 cwt. He was unwilling to trouble their Lordships by entering more fully into these statements, but he believed that it was impossible for any person to peruse the ample documents on their table, as well as those communicated by the other House, without coming to a distinct and decisive conclusion on the subject. There never was, he believed, a question more thoroughly examined and more developed in all its bearings, more proved by principle and more confirmed by detail, than this of opening the trade to China and India. The Committee of the House of Commons had been assisted in their inquiries by individuals in the service of the Government and of the Company—individuals of as great ability and of as great industry and zeal as could be anywhere found. Those inquiries had been organized and directed by an hon. Gentle man, of whose services the public had been most unhappily deprived—he meant the late Secretary of the Board of Control, Mr. Hyde Villiers, by whose assistance the inquiry of the Committee of the other House of Parliament had been conducted, and who had given them so much and such valuable information, that if anything could add, that circumstance must add much to the regret they must feel at the loss the public had sustained by his death. He begged pardon for this digression. Having stated these general circumstances, he thought that their Lordships would be prepared to come to the conclusion, that the Company could not longer continue as a trading Company with advantage to itself or the country. It had been stated, that the Company could not trade in India, and govern India, without having the assistance of the trade of Canton. That led him to the question, whether they should longer be permitted to trade as a Company to India, however fit it might be that they should continue to administer the government of that country. That one or other of these things should be abandoned, he had no doubt. Though there had been many instances, in barbarous and uncivilized countries, in which Government and trade had been blended in one person, it was impossible that it should be

165
so without the character of the Government suffering from the principles of the trader, or the usefulness of the trader being-lost in the authority of the Government. From the circumstances he had stated, it was evident, that there must have been a considerable loss suffered by the Company. From the laudable wish to administer their Government properly, and from the very proper desire to attend to the interests of their subjects, they had, perhaps, gone a little beyond the mark; and out of the perpetual conflict between territory and trade, and out of the difficulties of making up such accounts as should satisfy Parliament or the country, they had been led into the state of things, in which they had found themselves compelled to abandon one trade after another to private individuals, who had at last really made themselves, in fact, masters of the commerce of India. It might, perhaps, be asked, why, if they took their trade away, the territorial Administration should still be vested in the Company, and the reasons for this he was not unprepared to state to their Lordships. When they considered the many and important advantages which had accrued to the people of India, and of this country, from that Administration—when they considered the number of useful and able servants trained up by and now in its service—when they considered the importance, in a part of the world where public opinion was so delicate of maintaining, unimpaired, a body whose utility in intervening between all party conflicts in this country had been so often manifested—when they considered that in that body was vested an immense patronage, which, amidst political changes, neither Government nor Parliament could scramble for—when they considered that in their new and undivided character as Sovereigns alone, the East India Company would be enabled still more than before to maintain and extend the great interests confided to them—and when their Lordships considered that the Company would still be accountable to Parliament for the course they might hereafter adopt—he trusted all would agree with him in the wisdom and propriety of this portion of the plan for the settlement of the question. It was certainly his decided opinion, that when the Company was relieved from its functions as a trading body, which had undoubtedly interfered with its functions as a governing body, it would manage
166
even more usefully than before the internal affairs of that great empire, which it had hitherto regulated with so much credit to itself and so much benefit to its subjects. Here he should be disposed to close that part of his observations which had reference to the grounds on which these important arrangements were to be made; but, having stated the grounds, it was now necessary for him to explain the mode in which it was proposed to carry those arrangements into effect. It was proposed that on the trading of the Company ceasing, its territory should be made over to the King's sovereignty, subject to all the Company's liabilities—that the Company should make over to the King's Government all its assets, funds, &, both here and elsewhere, subject, of course, to all the demands now outstanding against them—that, in return for these concessions from the Company and its proprietors the King's Government should take upon itself, on the part of the territory so vested in the Government, to provide for the payment of the dividends now due from it, to the amount of 630,000 l. a-year—that it should also undertake to provide for those demands not chargeable on the assets, but on the territory of the Company—that, besides providing for this annual sum of 630,000 l., Government should provide a further fund of 2,000,000 l. to accumulate for forty years, to pay off that annuity—and that at the end of forty years, the said annuity of 630,000 l. should be redeemable at the rate of 5l. 5s. for every 100 l. Their Lordships must now be informed of the degree in which these assets were likely to be available to the Government, and of the mode by which it was hoped that this arrangement would not be onerous to the Company's territory in India. He hoped that their Lordships would bear with him while he stated how the account stood of the Company's assets, and of the demands made upon them, and also whilst he stated the amount of the territorial revenue, and the chance that there would be a surplus after the annuity of 630,000 l. was paid. Their Lordships would recollect, that the proprietors were to have an annuity of 630,000 l, paid to them out of the territorial revenues, and also a guarantee fund of 2,000,000 l. to accumulate for forty-years. Now, the Company's commercial assets, as stated by them, were valued at 21,645,557 l., including 4,811,000 l. ad

167
mitted to be due from territory and independent of their commercial property in India. To this sum was to be added for old claims due from their territory 8,616,113 l., making the total of their nominal assets amount to 30,261,270 l. He had already anticipated one observation which he had intended to make on this subject. There Lordships were well aware that in the estimate of the assets of any individual there could be no certainty that their value founded on their original cost would subsequently be realized. He should be misleading their Lordships and the country, if he were to assert that this large amount of assets would be realized. What deductions must be taken from it was, of course, matter of uncertain speculation. But, on referring to the accounts to enable themselves to form a judgment on the point, their Lordships would see that a variety of deductions must be made, arising from the difficulty of disposing of the property, from the decay to which some of it was liable from the depreciation which was taking place in every species of security, and from the deterioration of many commodities now on hand. Now the assets here, according to the assumed depreciated value, were 12,970,036 l. Besides this there was positively due from territory to commerce 4,811,000 l. That made together a total of 17,781,000 l. Sup-pose this to be realized in cash in May, 1834, at a discount of four per cent for a year and a-half, this will lessen it by 420,000 l. and then there will remain 17,361,000 l. For these assets the territory has to pay the guarantee fund 2,000,000 l., and as compensation to parties, 800,000 l. This reduced 17,361,000 l. to 14,561,000 l. Now, the interest on that sum at five per cent, was 728,077 l. The territory was charged with 718,000 l. in this manner. There was 630,000 l. available for dividends, and 88,000 l. for the payment of the bond debts, making together, as he had said before, 718,000 l. There was, therefore, on this point a surplus of 10,077 l. of the assets above the charge. To this, as it was accumulating for the benefit of territory, should be added the interest of the guarantee fund, at 3½ per cent, amounting to 61,000 l., so that he anticipated that there would be a clear annual surplus of 71,000 l. odd arising from the assets over the charge. Their Lordships would also expect him to show that the territorial revenue of India was
168
such as would allow the Government to provide for this additional charge of 630,000 l. without imposing additional taxation. He would not trouble their Lordships by going through the details of the revenue accruing to the three presidencies; he would simply state the result of it on an average of three years, subject to the deductions arising out of the reforms ordered by the Court of Directors, and now he believed, actually in progress. The revenue of the three presidencies, on an average of the three years 1828–9, 1829–30, and 1830–31, are about 18 crores, 51 lacs of rupees. The probable future charge on them would be about 16 crores, 54 lacs. Thus there would be a surplus revenue in India of 1 crore 96 lacs. He could not pass by this part of his statement without expressing on the part of the Government, the great satisfaction, and he might say gratitude, in which he was certain their Lordships would participate which the Government felt to be due to the present Governor General of India, for the unremitting vigilance and energy with which he had carried into effect the regulations in favour of economy transmitted to him by the directors at home. He believed that owing to the exertions of Lord William Bentinck, the administration of our Indian possessions had been maintained unimpaired; and that if it were true, that "peace had its victories not less renowned than war," his Lordship had had a most victorious career in India. He believed that under the auspices of that noble Lord, there had been a safe and effectual reduction made in the expenses of the Indian Government to the amount at which they stood before the Burmese war—a war which had undoubtedly led to an increase of expenditure, but which had now ceased to press upon the revenue. But to return from this digression. From this amount of surplus revenue, namely, 1 crore and 96 lacs, were to be deducted eight lacs for the expense of remittance and other charges. This reduced the surplus to one crore and 88 lacs; but to this again was to be added the balance of three lacs of the Carnatic revenue above the interest payable to the Carnatic creditors, leaving final surplus of one crore and 91 lacs. Now, if this were remitted at 1s. 11 d. the sicca rupee, it would produce 1,838,789 l. From this were to be deducted

169
the territorial charges in England, excluding the expenses of St. Helena, which amounted to 1,640,000 l., leaving a final surplus of 198,789 l. No man could arrive at arithmetical preciseness in calculations of this kind. It would be sufficient for him if he could show, that the territorial revenue of India, without any increase of taxation, would be able to meet the annual charge of 630,000 l. to be now sustained by the British Government. He had stated his views of the different parts of this financial arrangement, and of the various grounds on which he ventured to recommend it to their Lordships. But he should be taking a very narrow view of this question, and one utterly inadequate to the great importance of the subject, which involved in it the happiness or misery of 100,000,000 of human beings, were he not to call the attention of their Lordships to the bearing which this question, and to the influence which this arrangement, must exercise upon the future destinies of that vast mass of people. He was sure that their Lordships would feel, as he indeed felt, that their only justification before God and Providence for the great and unprecedented dominion which they exercised in India was in the happiness which they communicated to the subjects under their rule, and in proving to the world at large, and to the inhabitants of Hindoostan, that the inheritance of Akbar (the wisest and most beneficent of Mahometan princes) had not fallen into unworthy or degenerate hands. Hence, it was important that when the dominion of India was transferred from the East India Company to the King's Government, they should have the benefit of the experience of the most enlightened Councillors, not only on the financial condition of our empire in the East, but also on the character of its inhabitants. He stated confidently, after referring to the evidence given by persons eminently calculated to estimate what the character of the people of India was, that they must, as a first step to their improved social condition, be admitted to a larger share in the administration of their local affairs. On that point their Lordships had the testimony of a series of successful experiments, and the evidence of the most unexceptionable witnesses, who had gone at a mature period of their life, and with much natural and acquired knowledge, to visit the East. Among the crowd of witnesses which he
170
could call to the improveable condition of the Hindoo character, he would select only two; but those two were well calculated to form a correct judgment, and fortunately contemplated Indian society from very different points of view. Those two witnesses were Sir Thomas Monro and Bishop Heber. He could not conceive any two persons more eminently calculated to form an accurate opinion upon human character, and particularly upon that of the Hindoo tribes. They were both highly distinguished for talent and integrity, yet they were placed in situations from which they might have easily come to the formation of different opinions—one of then" being conversant with the affairs of the East from his childhood, and familiarized by long habit with the working of the system, and the other being a refined Christian philosopher and scholar, going out to the East late in life, and applying in India the knowledge which he had acquired here to form an estimate of the character of its inhabitants. He held in his hand the testimony of each of those able men, as extracted from their different published works, and with the permission of the House he would read a few words from both. Sir T. Monro in speaking of the Hindoo character said:—'Unless we suppose that they are inferior to us in natural talent, which there is no reason to believe, it is much more likely that they will be duly qualified for their employments than Europeans for theirs, because the field of selection is so much greater in the one than in the other. We have a whole nation from which to make our choice of natives, but in order to make choice of Europeans, we have only the small body of the Company's covenanted servants. No conceit more wild and absurd than this was ever engendered in the darkest ages; for what is in every age and every country the great stimulus to the pursuit of knowledge, but the prospect of fame, or wealth, or power; or what is even the use of great attainments, if they are not to be devoted to their noblest purpose, the service of the community, by employing those who possess them according to their respective qualifications in the various duties of the public Administration of the country? Our books alone will do little or nothing; dry simple literature will never improve the character of a nation. To produce this effect, it must

171
open the road to wealth, and honour, and public employment. Without the prospect of such reward, no attainments in science will ever raise the character of a people.' That was the sound practical opinion of Sir T. Monro, founded on his experience, acquired in every part of India, in every department of the public service. Bishop Heber, during his extensive journey of charity and religion through India, to which he fell at length a martyr, used these remarkable expressions:—'Of the natural disposition of the Hindoo, I still see abundant reason to think highly, and Mr. Bayley and Mr. Melville both agreed with me, that they are constitutionally kindhearted, industrious, sober, and peaceable; at the same time that they show themselves, on proper occasions, a manly and courageous people.' And again. 'They are decidedly, by nature, a mild, pleasing and intelligent race, sober, parsimonious, and, where an object is held out to them, most industrious and persevering.' Their Lordships were therefore justified in coming to the same conclusion—a conclusion to which, indeed, they must come if they only considered the acts of this people in past ages—if they only looked at the monuments of gratitude and piety which they had erected to their benefactors and friends—for to India, if to any country, the observation of the poet applied—
"Sunt hic etiam sua præmia laudi,
Suntlacrymæ verum, et mentem mortalia tangunt."
But however, much civilization had been obscured in those regions, whatever inroads foreign conquest and domestic superstition had made upon their moral habits, it was undeniable that they had still materials left for improving and ameliorating their condition; and their Lordships would be remiss in the performance of the high duties which devolved upon them if they did not secure to the numerous natives of Hindoostan the ample development of all their mental endowments and moral qualifications. It was a part of the new system which he had to propose to their Lordships, that to every office in India every native, of whatsoever caste, sect, or religion, should be by law equally admissible, and he hoped that Government would seriously endeavour to give the fullest effect to this arrangement, which would be as beneficial to the people themselves as it would be advantageous to the economical reforms which were now in progress in different
172
parts of India. There were other changes in the domestic arrangements of India which it was proposed to make on this occasion, and which he would now proceed to explain to the House. Great injury was experienced in India from the variety of laws which prevailed there. Their Lordships would find testimony borne by the Judges of the Supreme Court, and by the local Judges in the interior of the country, to the difficulty which they experienced in administering a system of law made up of patches of Hindoo, Mahometan, and European laws, and of a quantity of local custom, which bade defiance to the most zealous efforts of those whose duty it was to administer full and impartial justice to the people of India. To expect that a code of laws could be framed to meet all the wants of a people so various in origin, habits, and language, would be a hope too sanguine to indulge; but that some assimilation might be made between those conflicting laws, and that it should be settled, where there were two clashing laws, which of them should in future prevail, was a task which Government should attempt to accomplish, and for that purpose it was proposed to appoint a Commission, consisting of individuals best acquainted with the laws, practices, and customs of India. He might be asked whether anything was to be done for the institution of trial by Jury in India; on that point he would not venture to give any confident opinion. That in some places, and to a certain extent, it might be introduced with satisfaction to the people of Hindoostan he was disposed to indulge a hope; and it was a remarkable circumstance in the history of that country belonging to its antiquities, that an institution, analogous not to the trial by Jury as we now have it, but analogous to the trial by Jury as it existed among us in its first elements, the Pronchild long prevailed in Malabar. He hoped that that element might be converted to an important use in the administration of the law in that country; and it was not inconsistent with this view of the question to mention that, in a country resembling India, and indeed forming part of it, he meant Ceylon, the trial by Jury had been introduced by Sir Alexander Johnston with great effect, and that out of it arose the abolition of slavery in that country. Their Lordships would also have to consider the best means of carrying into effect in India the

173
measures to which they had already agreed for the other parts of the empire, he meant the best means for the total abolition of slavery. He was aware that slavery in the east varied from slavery in the west, and that the abolition of it in the east might be attended even with greater difficulty than in the west; for slavery in the east was attended with circumstances of caste, &, over which the dominion of law had hitherto been able to exercise but little influence. The abolition of slavery must, therefore, be made with the restrictions and concessions which the importance of the subject demanded, and for that purpose it was proposed to appoint a Commission of Inquiry. He had now gone through most of the proposed changes in the system; but there was another which he must mention, which referred to the better government of the north-western provinces—the newly-acquired territory. It was here necessary that a firm and effectual Government should be established, for, owing to remissness in the administration of justice, caused by the seat of Government being so far removed, much inconvenience and mischief had accrued. The time would more properly arise on the discussion of the Bill for entering into the details on this subject; he confined himself at the present moment to a mere general outline. With the exception of one other point he had now gone through his statement. That point referred to the spiritual welfare of the natives. It had been found impossible for one Bishop to get through the vast duties appertaining to his office, and it was, therefore, proposed that the two Archdeacons should share his labours with him. Government had another intention. It was intended that Europeans should be admitted to all the old settlements of India without licenses; but that licenses should be necessary to admit them to the new settlements. On account of this it was pro-posed to vest greater authority in the Council with respect to the exercise of the law. If Europeans were admitted, and if they flocked to that country, as he hoped they would, the result would be of the greatest advantage to the civilization of the vast population of India. They would introduce into that vast territory all the arts, and all the sciences, and all the advantages attendant on them that could be expected from this country, which was the spot in which all that related to civiliza
174
tion was concentrated; and that civilization would be diffused over the whole surface of India. It had been already seen that scarcely was the power of steam developed upon the Thames and upon the Clyde, than it was extended to India, and contributed to animate the waters of the Ganges. When such was the case—when invention" were communicated to so great a distance so speedily—it was natural to presume that the extension of science would be more rapid as the ingress of Europeans was more facilitated. Still it would be necessary, as Europeans were to be admitted to the old settlements without licenses, that they should be liable to some restrictions; and it was for that reason that more power was to be invested in the Government. All those that went to India Could not expect to be as little liable to control as in their own country; they could not expect to live with the indigenous inhabitants of that country as they lived with those of their own country; they could not expect that the native population would conform to their habits; and they should expect to be obliged to conform to the laws that Government should think proper to frame for the control of Europeans, as well as of other nations. He would here close the observations that he had thought lit to make in furtherance of the Resolutions he had introduced. In making those observations he thought himself justified in travelling beyond, perhaps, the sphere he ought to have confined himself to, and for this reason, because he thought that their Lordships would be called upon to examine the whole of what he had alluded to. He was sure that the principles of those Resolutions, if they should be acted upon, would extend and be enlarged beyond bounds that could not be well calculated; and without being at all too sanguine as to the result of the following up those principles, without calculating upon any extension of territory through them, he was confident that the strength of the Government would be increased by the happiness of the people over whom it presided, and by the attachment of those nations to it. It was for this that he would conclude by moving that their Lordships would concur in the Resolutions that had been communicated to them. The noble Marquess, in answer to a question from Lord Ellenborough, begged to remind that noble Lord that what he had

175
said of the intention of adding additional power to the government of India referred only to the Supreme Government; that it was not intended to do so to other inferior governments. However, the intention formed no part of the Resolutions; it might be adopted afterwards, as might other changes independent of the Resolutions. But that would form a subject for future consideration and discussion.
The Resolutions having been read,
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, the alteration to be made in the Supreme Government and Councils was a point of the greatest importance, and he was surprised the noble Marquess had not adverted to it before, and had not then fully explained the intentions of his Majesty's Government. Neither the noble Marquess nor the Government was aware, apparently, of the importance of it. It was much more important than those details into which the noble Marquess entered so much at length. He would request their Lordships to allow him to carry back their attention to the points first adverted to by the noble Marquess, and he should be as brief as possible on this part of the subject. When he proposed a Committee to inquire into this subject in the year 1830, he stated to their Lordships that the question with respect to the China trade was entirely one of finance, and their Lordships would have to consider whether the East-India Company could meet the territorial charge without the monopoly of that trade being preserved. If the Company could, the Legislature might deal with that trade as it pleased, if it could not, provision must be made for that charge by some other means. From the moment he entered into that office, which was connected with the government of India, his first object was so to reduce the expenditure of the Indian government as to place the freedom of the China trade completely at the disposal of Parliament. This also had been the earnest desire of his noble predecessor (Lord Melville), as well as of all his colleagues. He thought that in two years more they might have secured that object, and they would, in that event, have been prepared to make the same proposition with respect to the China trade as that now made. He did not, however, then, any more than now, anticipate from the opening of that trade so many advantages as were by some persons so sanguinely anticipated. The great benefit which he
176
expected to result would arise from the extension of the circuitous trade through the whole of the East; but he did not expect a great increase in the export of British manufactures to China. The noble Marquess had referred to some official documents on the subject of the East India Company's trade, but the noble Marquess did not seem to be aware that the imports of the Company amounted to 4,500,000 dollars, of which three-fourths were in British manufactures. The imports of America were 20,000,000 of dollars, of which one-eighteenth only was in British manufactures. The importation of goods by America had of late greatly decreased, and he did not, therefore, expect a great increase of trade in consequence of the measure now proposed except in the general circuitous trade of the East. He did not think it would be very desirable or safe that the people of this country should, immediately on opening the trade, send out large quantities of British goods to China. This, however, would not be a matter of much importance, because the advantage would be the same whether the trade was carried on by British capital directly from this country, or circuitously through the whole of the East. There was a considerable trade in opium and in cotton; but with respect to other articles the trade had fallen off, and he certainly apprehended a considerable injury to British interest, should our merchants rush hastily into this trade. He would not enter into the question whether it was important or not that such an establishment as that of the Company should be maintained at Canton. He had never doubted that even trade to China might be carried on by private individuals in the same way as the trade to China was carried on by the Americans. He thought, however, that on opening the trade and in terminating the Company's monopoly, some preparation and prudence were necessary in order to render that a safe measure, and to avoid a crisis in the mercantile world. He saw as yet no plan proposed by Ministers for substituting without risk or inconvenience a private trade for that of the Company. From the sudden cessation of the Company's trade he apprehended great injury at Canton, and considering the quantity of tea at present in store, he was apprehensive that improvident importations on the part of individuals would be attended with great

177
loss to themselves, and with considerable diminution in the value of the assets of the Company, now to become the property of the Crown. The great object should have been to open the trade in such a way as was best calculated to prevent such consequences, and to effect it gradually, so as to benefit the private trader without injury to the Company. The noble Marquess had noticed the trade carried on by the Company with India, and had referred to that carried on by individuals, comparing one with the other, and proving that the latter had much increased; but the noble Marquess did not seem to be aware of the small increase in every other branch of traffic except that of cotton. The increase which took place in the importation of all other articles, in fifteen years subsequent to the last renewal of the Charter did not exceed 265,000 l. in value. The increase in the cotton trade to India had, he admitted, been enormous, arising from the great reduction of prices; but while he looked with pleasure to the increase in the export to India of British manufactured cotton, he could not help feeling much regret, taking as he did a warm interest in the welfare of the inhabitants of India, that the increase in British industry had been the ruin of many natives. It was not all gain, it was a gain to British manufacturers, but it was ruin to those of India. He concurred with the noble Marquess in thinking that the government of India might be carried on without any extraordinary assistance from other sources besides the territorial revenue. The statements, however, of the noble Marquess upon this head seemed inconsistent with the Returns from the Company, and from the India Board which had been laid upon the Table. He was of opinion in 1830, and continued still of that opinion, that if the plan which the Government of that day meant to pursue had been followed up no assistance would be necessary. He was prepared still to support that opinion and to co-operate with his Majesty's Government in acting on it; but if it were intended as had been intimated in another place, to limit the control of Government to general matters, laying down principles but leaving the details to subordinate officers, he had no hesitation in saying, that ruin to the finances of India must be the result. He believed, in truth, that the total ruin of their Indian finances would be the consequence, and this country would
178
be eventually called upon to contribute large sums to meet the deficiency. Every hope now entertained of the adequacy of the territorial revenue would then be disappointed. He would state the grounds upon which he anticipated, in 1830, a surplus of revenue. [The noble Lord here read an average account of the surplus of the Indian revenue for the three years preceding May, 1824 and 1829. The result of which was, that after deducting the charges upon the revenue, and allowing for the increase in the debt occasioned by the Burmese war, the noble Lord estimated the clear surplus at 150,000 l.; but that he might not be accused of exaggerating the amount, he proposed to take it only at 100,000 l.] He must, however, remind their Lordships that this surplus was calculated on the supposition that it would be possible to reduce all the charges in India to the amount at which they stood in 1824, and from which they ought never to have varied. On the contrary, he thought it possible to reduce the charges even below that amount. Speaking of the revenue of India in 1824, he could not avoid performing a passing act of justice to the Marquess of Hastings. That noble-man had proved himself to be both great in peace and great in war. Whilst he governed India he established the finances of that country on the soundest possible foundation, and he wished to God that that nobleman had continued to govern India to the present day. He believed that this surplus of 100,000 l. would have been greatly increased by the improvement which had taken place in the state both of the ancient and new territories of the Company. There had been, it was true, a great falling-off in the revenue of late, not owing to the distress of the people of India, but to the great increase of cultivation, which reduced the price of produce so much as rendered it impossible to pay the whole money taxes. Besides this, he had in his mind other resources for increasing the surplus revenue of India. One plan was, to introduce into India the principle which had lately been acted upon in this country with respect to the mode of paying the judges. He proposed to give them and all officers of Courts of justice fixed salaries in place of fees and fines; and a Bill for that purpose was brought into the House of Commons by an hon. friend of his, which, however,

179
was not proceeded with. He likewise contemplated the reduction of a Judge at Madras, besides the one already reduced. From these resources he calculated that he should have been able to derive an annual sum of 50,000 l. This was a large sum, but their Lordships should recollect that he proposed to get rid of one of the clerks in the Supreme Court at Calcutta, whose pay was greater than that of the Commander-in-chief. This gentleman received between 18,000 l. and 20,000 l. in fees. He had in view other reductions connected with the improvement of the Company's military forces, which, he believed, would have had the effect of removing every grievance at present felt by Europeans and native soldiers. He anticipated from these proposed alterations, besides an increased efficiency in the native army, an improvement in the revenue, in the year 1835, to the extent of 300,000 l. Before he quitted office he had collected all the information necessary to enable him to carry these changes into effect, and he left behind him a minute on the subject, but it had not been acted upon by his Majesty's present Ministers. It was also intended by the noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington) and himself, to throw on the revenue of India the whole expense of the government of Ceylon, which would have afforded a relief to the finances of this country to the extent of 90,000 l. His Majesty's present Ministers had, however, chosen to pursue a very different course, and had thrown the expense of the government of St. Helena on the finances of this country. The expense of the government of St. Helena and Ceylon together, amounted to 180,000 l., and a burthen to that extent had been thrown on the finances of this country, which would not have been imposed on them by the late Government. By these measures a surplus, amounting, if not to 150,000 l., certainly beyond 100,000 l. would have been secured; but according to the noble Marquess's plan, no surplus was provided, but, on the contrary, there was a deficiency. He could not understand that part of the statement as to surplus revenue made by the noble Marquess. For his own part, he was guided by the estimates laid on that Table, as well as by those of the East-India House. He steered a medium course between the two; and he found that, after calculating by each, there would be a deficit—at least so he anticipated
180
—of half-a-million a-year, for by the present plan no reduction whatever could take place. The charges of the civil Government of Bengal were, from 1824 to 1829, about 95,000 l. a-year; now he felt it formerly possible to reduce every rupee of that by the surplus revenue that would have accrued from his plan, because, from his calculation, he would arrive at a surplus of 150,000 l. From that a reduction should be taken in the shape of a payment to the Company for advances made by it in behalf of the territory. The surplus he spoke of was, of course, according to the plan intended by the late Government, of which he formed part. He would now show, that there could no surplus arise out of the plan proposed by the noble Marquess; and he said that confidently, when he considered the increased charges that would follow the Government plan He would presently show their Lordships that the noble Marquess's calculation with respect to the amount of assets was altogether erroneous. The difference between 630,000 l. imposed on the territorial debt of India, and the interest paid off was 163,000 l. The assets, therefore, would only enable the Government to pay off such an amount of the remittable debt as gave an interest of 467,000 l. There was, therefore, a charge of 163,000 l. still to be met. The compensation given to commercial servants of the Company amounted to 56,000 l., and the sum hereafter to be given would amount at least to 150,000 l. It had been calculated at 200,000 l., but he preferred to take the lowest estimate. In addition, the Law Commission, composed of five members, each with a salary of 6,000 l. a-year, would entail an annual expense of 30,000 l. The Slave Commission would cost 30,000 l. more. But this was not the whole of the expenses attached to those Commissions. They were to travel about the country, and must, of course, be accompanied by secretaries, and a numerous establishment of officers. Then there was the Governor of Agra with 10,000 l., and four secretaries with 3,000 l. each; making a total of 22,000 l. The three new Members of Council would occasion a further expense of 30,000 l. and two new Bishops 10,000 l. more. It was impossible not to perceive from the details of the plan that the Governor-General was not intended to be fixed at Calcutta; it was proposed to

181
make him a migratory Governor, and the lowest sum for which a Governor-General could travel through the country was 50,000 l. The Marquess of Hastings expended no less than 200,000 l. in the. course of his travelling. But how was it possible for the Governor-General to migrate without a government? If he was to administer the government during his travels, he must carry with him secretaries and an establishment of officers equal to a subordinate Presidency; and then the expense would exceed all calculation. The result was, that instead of a surplus being secured, according to the plan of the late Government, there would be a deficit, and an expense of 546,000 l. was incurred over and above the sum which would have been required if the course which the late Government proposed to follow had been adopted. He begged to suggest to the noble Marquess the propriety of discharging a portion of the non-remittable debt, instead of applying the funds at his disposal to the purpose of paying off the remittable debt. The noble Baron entered again into a variety of financial statements and calculations to justify the remarks he had just made.* The
* We subjoin the document which the noble Lord principally made use of in establishing his financial views:—

Prospective Finance of India.

Average surplus of revenue after paying all charges in India and in England, 1821–2, 1822–3, and in 1823–4

£. 898,000

But the surplus in the last of these years being only 340,000 l., the estimate is founded on that sum

340,000

Improvement of revenue up to 1828–9, as compared with average revenue of 1821–2, 1822–3, and 1823–4

800,000

This, without new charges, would give a prospective surplus of

1,140,000

But since 1823–4, the nett increase of the interest of the debt is

450,000

The advantage to India from the Board's rates of exchange, henceforth to be lost was, in the three years above compared (on the average)

444,000

The charge of the bond debt, henceforth to be thrown upon the territory, is

88,000

Together

982,000

Leaving a surplus of

158,000

The increase of the civil charges of India, from 1823–4 to 1828–9 (exclusively

182
noble Marquess had alluded (the noble Lord continued) to the loss which the Company sustained from the mode in which their remittances were now made, which he calculated at 100,000 l. He (Lord Ellenborough) would suggest, though he did it with diffidence, for he was not much versed in such matters, that the best plan to obviate that would be to convert the remittable into an un-remittable debt, which might be done as it had been done before, by giving a trifling bonus. Losses to the amount of 10,000,000 l. had been, within a few years, sustained in Calcutta in consequence of the mode in which business was now conducted. The consequence was, that credit was nearly extinct there. The plan he suggested would be a means of bringing capital into circulation in India, which might be advantageously employed in that trade from which the Company withdrew. The present Government, in the correspondence, took great credit to themselves for the compromise they effected. Without meaning the slightest disrespect to their talents for negotiation, he would take the liberty of saying, that that was not exactly the point upon which they

of all fluctuating changes and interest of debt), is

950,000

Deduct prospective deficit, being the medium between the estimates of the India Board and the Court

500,000

Surplus

450,000

Reductions since 1828–9, supposed to be wholly from civil charges

300,000

Surplus

150,000

Increase of revenue in Bengal, Behar, and Orissa, from 1809 to 1826.

From Land

581,000

From Customs

111,000

From Stamps

200,000

In Seventeen Years

892,000

Per Annum

52,000

The estimated prospective increase of revenue in all the rest of India, per annum

48,000

Together

100,000

Assets

12,702,000

To be repaid by India in 1834–5

2,574,000

To be repaid by India 1835–6

3,348,000

To be repaid by India 1836–7

3,398,000

22,022,000

Deduct guarantee fund

2,000,000

Applicable to payments

20,022,000

183
ought to pride themselves. The concession which they flattered themselves they had exacted from the Company was a proposition which had been actually made to the late Government, and all that the present spoke of doing, their predecessors would have actually accomplished; but they would have done it gradually. It would have formed no part of their plan all at once to put an end to the trade with China—they were not altogether without apprehension, that in such an event there might have been produced such a change in the amount of the exports of this country as would have led to a crisis in trade, fraught with danger to the well-being of the commercial and manufacturing communities; and even at present he was by no means free from the apprehension, that the crisis then feared might yet take place. The object of the former Government would have been to induce the Company gradually to withdraw their assets

Charges thereon.

1834–5

3,348,000

1835–6

3,398,000

1836–7

3,198,000

Remittable Loan (payable July 1836)

9,342,100

19,286,100

Which deducted from

20,022,000

Leaves in hand on 1st May 1837

736,000

During 1837–8, will be received 3,198,000 l. in repayment of advances in 1836–7.

Effect of Plan on Finances of India and of England.

By plan of late Government, Ceylon would have been transferred to India

90,000

By plan of present Government, St. Helena is transferred to England

90,000

Loss to English revenues

180,000

Debt imposed on India

630,000

Deduct interest of the remittable loan

467,000

New charge on India

163,000

Add compensations already granted to commercial servants

56,000

Do to be granted (on estimate)-

150,000

Five Law Commissioners

30,000

Five Slavery Commissioners

30,000

Travelling of the two Commissions-

30,000

Three new Members of Council-

30,000

New Government of Agra

22,000

Two new Bishops

10,000

Travelling of Governor-General

50,000

571,000

Deduct St. Helena

90,000

Total new charges

£.481,000

184
from the China trade, and otherwise invest them; and that withdrawal, he did suppose, could be effected without loss or risk, provided it proceeded gradually. Had that been done they might have prevented the necessity of throwing upon the territorial revenue the loss arising from the cessation of the trade to China. With reference to one point which had been much insisted on by the noble Marquess, and by many political economists, he meant the injury arising from the union of the two characters in the Company of Sovereign and trader; he must observe, that all those difficulties had been much exaggerated. The Governor-General was not occupied in the course of the year twelve hours by the trading interests of the Company, and the Board of Control had nothing whatever to do with those interests. Those intrusted with the government of India, did not in fact meddle with the trade; and as far as he knew, there had been only one complaint of any misconduct on the part of the Company's officers towards an individual who might be considered as a trading competitor, and in that instance the injury was redressed. No other evil he conceived was done to the Company by its character of a trader in respect to its fitness for Government, than that of being obliged to make remittances which sometimes led to embarrassments, and such embarrassments were likely to be increased by the measures of his Majesty's Ministers. On a subject of such vast extent it was not improbable that he might have omitted perhaps some very important subjects connected with this matter. But he now approached that part of the question which was to him the most interesting, inasmuch as it deeply affected the future happiness of the people of India: be meant the effects of the proposed changes in the Government both in India and in England. And first as to the constitution of the home Government; could any man doubt, that when the East-India Company should be no longer a trading Company, when a large portion of its commerce was taken from it, and all the patronage connected with that trade, that a different class of persons would become proprietors of East India Stock, and that at no distant period these changes would lead to a material alteration in the character of the Court of Directors themselves? Now he was not desirous to see any diminution whatever

185
in the real influence of the Court of Directors. He was satisfied that it was necessary to the system by which the Government of India was conducted that the Court of Directors should be composed of persons of high moral character, as well as of property, whose independence, and impartiality should be unimpeachable, and who should be able to deliver free and unbiassed opinions, and whose general conduct should afford t e strongest possible guarantee, that they would consult only the public interest. Their Lordships had some reason to imagine what degree of consideration would be extended by his Majesty's Government to the Court of Directors hereafter when they knew that no correspondence had taken place with that body upon the subject of these changes; and he believed that no persons were more surprised than the Court of Directors of the East-India Company were when those changes had been proposed to Parliament. What he apprehended was, that the constituency would in time be composed of persons wholly connected with India, and the result must be, that the Court of Directors would be similarly composed; and he looked to this as a calamity. He was by no means desirous that India should be wholly governed by persons who had retired from service in India, as he did not think this would benefit the people of that country. The feelings such persons had imbibed in India would predominate in the Court of Directors, and such feelings were not precisely those best fitted to promote the happiness of both countries. On the contrary, he knew, that the great advantage in the practical working of the present system was, that the Court of Directors, being partly composed of persons connected with India, and partly of merchants of the first eminence connected with the trade of this country, and influential members of society, an amalgamation of British and Indian feeling had taken place which had been highly beneficial. What had been the effect of this but a very useful distribution of patronage not confined to the sons of Indians, and imbued with all the prejudices of Indian society. That patronage had been extended to every class of society, and it had been exercised to the greatest benefit of this country and India. But it had been made subject of gratulation by his Majesty's Ministers, that by these arrangements the Court of Directors would
186
have an interest which they never had before in the welfare of India, whereas the reverse was the case. Under the existing system, the Court of Directors were interested in maintaining the surplus revenue of India, for out of that the dividends were paid. It certainly had happened, that the revenue fell off in one year, when the Company fell back on the surplus revenue of the former year, and was able to pay the dividend. This was the first of those advantages of the present system, which was not of a visionary character. The Company derived part of its resources from its commerce; those resources enabled it to relieve the pressure upon India, and appear to its subjects in the character of a beneficent master realizing no other advantages from its superiority than those of a reciprocal commercial intercourse. The condition in which the Company would be placed now was in the undignified and not very popular character of mortgagees in possession. The government of India must, as a matter of duty, remit the dividends, cost what it might to the general character of the Company to levy them. He maintained, therefore, that the plan of his Majesty's Ministers placed the Company in a worse position relative to the people of India than heretofore. But, however important might be the changes contemplated in the constitution of the Government at home, he considered them much less injurious than the changes contemplated in the Government abroad. It was with great surprise that he had understood it had been stated, that the alterations in lndia were sup-ported by the authority of every person of weight. Now, he confessed that when he had the honour to preside at the Board of Control, he had always thought that in matters of difficulty he could not act more usefully or safely than by requesting the opinion of Mr. Elphinstone. He believed, that every man, acquainted with India, would agree with him, that the opinion of this Gentleman was most valuable; and he could state, from the opinion of Mr. Elphinstone before the Committee, in answer to questions which were put to him upon almost every point on which alterations were now to be made, that his opinion was adverse to every one of these Resolutions. He staked Mr. Elphinstone's opinion confidently against the joint opinions of every man who had been examined before the Committee of the House of

187
Commons; and he thought it better to look to the opinion of a man of a most extensive experience and great ability, rather than to allow it to be outnumbered by the opinions of persons of little or no authority. Now, what was the first proposition of his Majesty's Government? Why, it was, that the Governors should have no Councils. He was well aware, that those councils were productive of delay and of difficulty, but their removal would constitute the Government of India an absolute Government, instead of being a Government of respondits. They had been placed there as a security against the abuse of absolute power; they had been placed there for the benefit and protection of the natives; and in abolishing them they removed the strongest guarantee for the good government of the people of that country. He cared not what theorists would advance on such a subject—they knew not man, or the nature of man, who supposed that absolute power could be exercised beneficially for a people, without being subject to responsibility and to reflection before it acted. But they proposed in this case, to take from the Governor his responsibility, and all necessity for reflection; nay, more than this. What were the future powers of the subordinate Governor to be?—Very small. Would any respectable man take the office? He was to be deprived of the power of legislation! of the power of expending a single shilling! and yet to the man so degraded, they were to leave the whole executive power of the Government, without that control with which the prudence and wisdom of former Parliaments had surrounded it. But what was the excuse for doing away with the Councils? It was said, that the subsidiary governments had been guilty of extravagance; but this was not true. They would see extravagance in Bengal, but not in the presidencies of Madras or Bombay. Look to the presidency of Bombay. Could any man suppose that that Presidency could be ill-governed which had been administered for six years by Sir Thomas Munro, by Mr. Elphinstone, and subsequently by Sir John Malcolm? But it was proposed, that a new government should be established in India, and the Legislature was to be vested in future, not in three (as before), but in six Members of Council in Calcutta, four to be officers of the four presidencies, the fifth to be a philosopher, and the sixth a
188
soldier. In what manner could such a council be conducted? When the Government consisted of the Governor and two councillors, having the assistance of the Commander-in-chief, there was a possibility of conducting the Government. When the Commander-in-chief was present, if one individual in three agreed with the Governor, there was a majority in favour of his proposition, and it became the measure of the Government. What could be expected of this Legislature which was to be formed of five lay Members, with the addition of the Commander-in-chief? The philosopher would be at the head of the opposition, and would endeavour to counteract, if he could not be, the Governor General. This might appear unimportant, but their Lordships might depend upon it, if the Government, which must be conducted with rapidity, was to be carried on by double the number of council, it would be a means of producing delay, and carrying confusion into every department. But what must be the consequence of those difficulties which would be experienced by the Governor General? He would leave Calcutta; it was the object of his Majesty's Ministers that he should leave Calcutta occasionally; and, like the ancient Caliphs, give laws from his stirrup, and live in his camp. Then, if the Governor General could find one obsequious man in the whole Council of Calcutta, to accompany him, the signature of that individual would give to whatever he might promulgate, the authority of an act of the Governor General in Council. Here again, the Government deprived him of that advantage which any man would wish to have, of communicating with able men, well acquainted with every part of the country, and of forming upon their opinions, and the facts stated by them, his own judgment of what should be the future measures of his government. With the assistance of this Council, the Governor General was to legislate for the whole of India. Could he legislate for distant places as well as if he were on the spot? Was it possible to legislate for the whole of India, fixed at Calcutta, so satisfactorily as a council living in the country where the laws are to be applied? No, certainly not. Legislation would be much better by a local, than by a distant government. In abolishing the councils of the several presidencies, those presidencies would be deprived of the advantage of having the

189
commander of the military force associated with the civil power. The consequence of that might be, a collision of the civil and military authorities. On a former occasion, the consequence was more than collision—it was mutiny and civil war. It was most unwise to dissociate the Commander-in-chief from the civil government. He laid that down as a safe principle; and he was quite sure, if their Lordships legislated otherwise, they would do serious mischief. But the Commander-in-chief would, according to the new plan, be Commander-in-chief of all the forces in India—from which no advantage would be gained in time of war, and great inconvenience would be experienced in the ordinary working of the system in time of peace. The power of legislation, however, was not only to be confined to the Governor General in council at Calcutta; but that power, in their hands, was to be more extensive than had ever yet been exercised. Now, the Governor General could legislate for the natives; hereafter he was to legislate for Europeans. He was to have the power of altering the laws by which the Supreme Court itself was established. Undoubtedly, the events which they had witnessed had made it necessary to define, perhaps to restrict, the jurisdiction of that Court. But it was established in India to protect the natives from the abuse of European power: for that purpose let it be upheld in all its original independence. Restrict its jurisdiction if the House would bring Europeans within its reach, but leave it as former Parliaments had placed it—as the only security which the natives possess against European oppression. The power given to the council, which, in effect, abolished the Supreme Court, astonished him. He did think that the recollection of former days would have so acted upon some of the members of his Majesty's Government, as to have made them desirous of retaining that Court which their ancestors had established; but instead of that, every security which had been hitherto given to the natives against European oppression, was at once to be swept away. Europeans, too, it seemed, were to have the liberty of going into the interior of India. But was it not known that, practically, all men of capital have long had that liberty? He would venture to say, that not a man hitherto in this country that could give a
190
colourable pretext for going to India had ever been refused a licence to go there. It was a great mistake to suppose that capitalists went out to India. No British capital went out to India. The capital with which India was worked was capital raised by the civil and military servants of the Crown in that country. Another part of the plan was, to place all persons in India under the same law. He would say at once, that it would be utterly impossible to do that consistent with native usages and prejudices. If they were to alter the laws there so as to induce Europeans to live under them, they must, in doing so, violate all the prejudices and feelings of the natives; and, instead of producing satisfaction, they would excite abhorrence and disgust amongst the natives throughout the whole of India. It appeared, too, that they were to extend those beneficial measures to the slaves in India which were about being so happily settled with regard to the slaves in our West-India colonies. Now, what were called domestic slaves in India were not really slaves, they were called slaves because they had no other name for persons in their condition there; but their condition was that of the mildest state of domestic servitude. There were parts of India, no doubt, where the state of those slaves was of a more severe description,—in Malabar for instance; but then the noble Marquess himself admitted, that their slavery there was a slavery of caste. It would be a violent outrage on the feelings and-prejudices of the natives of India thus to abolish all castes there, and to say, that slavery should no longer exist in that country. The attempt to establish such a state of things would lead most certainly to bloodshed in every part of India. In fact, it was insanity to make the attempt. Where, at all events, was the necessity for stating, in an Act of Parliament that which the Government could do at any time without such authority,—namely, that by the 12th of April, 1837, every slave in India should be free? What was it but, in other words, to say, that there should be insurrection in every part of India? He would recommend their Lordships to attend to the discreet and wise advice of no less an authority than the late Sir T. Monro on that subject [The noble Lord quoted an opinion of Sir T. Monro, to the effect that, by the gradual operation of justice and

191
policy, more good would be effected for the slaves in India than by the direct interference of the Government.] That, he observed, was a wise and considerate opinion, and entitled to the greatest weight, coming as it did from a man who was justly venerated as one of the greatest benefactors of the native population in India, and the ablest governor who had ever appeared in that country. He called on their Lordships to pause before they proceeded to do that which would go to shake the very foundation of our power in India, which would go to shake the confidence which every man there entertained in the justice and honour of the English Government, He felt deeply interested in the prosperity of India, and when he was a Minister of the Crown, filling an office peculiarly connected with that country, he had always considered it his paramount duty to do all in his power to promote that prosperity. He was as anxious as any of his Majesty's Ministers could be to raise the moral character of the native population of India. He trusted, that the time would eventually come, though he never expected to see it, when the natives of India could, with advantage to the country, and with honour to themselves, fill even the highest situations there. He looked forward to the arrival of such a period, though he considered it far distant from the present day; and he proposed, by the reduction of taxation, which was the only way to benefit the lower classes in India, to elevate them ultimately in the scale of society, so as to fit them for admission to offices of power and trust. To attempt to precipate the arrival, of such a state of society as that he had been describing was the surest way to defeat the object in view. He never, however, looked forward to a period when all offices in India would be placed in the hands of natives. No man in his senses would propose to place the political and military power in India in the hands of the natives.
The Marquess of Lansdownobserved, that what the Government proposed was, that all offices in India should be by law open to the natives of that country.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, such was precisely the proposition of Government, but our very existence in India depended upon the exclusion of the natives from military and political power in that country. We were there in a situation not of our own
192
seeking, in a situation from which we could not recede without producing bloodshed from one end of India to the other. We had won the empire of India by the sword, and we must preserve it by the same means, doing, at the same time, everything that was consistent with our existence there for the good of the people of India. The present was a crude, ill-digested plan, the offspring of unfounded theories, formed by men who knew no-thing of India, and who would learn nothing of India; and who expected that men possessed of all the passions which they themselves possessed, were to be governed like mere ciphers? Was it not folly to propose to give unlimited power to men who would not be called upon to reflect before they acted, and who would be placed in a position where all ultimate responsibility was taken away, as no records or minutes of their proceedings would exist? Such was the power that was proposed to be given to the governors in India. On those grounds he protested against the whole of the plan proposed by his Majesty's Ministers. He called on the noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government, in accordance with those sentiments which he had expressed twenty years ago on this subject, to join with him (Lord Ellenborough) in asking for time. He asked for no more. He merely asked, for time, in order that the whole of this great question might be well and deeply considered, that they might have the advantage of learning the opinions of men of experience—of men connected with India, and intimately acquainted with its wants and with the feelings of its people on this subject—in fine, he called for time that they might not recklessly risk all that they possessed in India, losing, perhaps, the greatest and most glorious empire that had ever been won by the hands of man, and at the same time losing their characters as statesmen and as benefactors of the people whose dominion would thus irretrievably pass from their hands.
The Earl of Riponcommenced by complimenting the noble Lord upon the eloquence and research displayed in his speech, and then expressed his satisfaction that although Ministers were so obstinately ignorant, and had brought forward such a crude and undigested plan, yet that some part of it met with the approbation of the noble Lord. The noble Lord, with all his diligence of discovery, could have paid

193
but little attention to the mass of documents upon the Table, or he would have found that there was no part of the plan which had not received the deliberate sanction of a Committee, and that not a single principle had been adopted that had not the support of some adequate authority. It was satisfactory to find, however, not only that the noble Lord approved of some parts of the plan, but that he actually took credit to himself for having been disposed to originate something similar. Such was the case with the abolition of China monopoly. The noble Lord stated that the late Government were satisfied that the only circumstance that could justify the maintenance of the commercial monopoly of the East-India Company was the necessity of supporting the expenditure of the government of India from other sources than the territorial revenue of that country, and that he wished to reduce the Indian expenditure as much as possible, with a view to render the commercial privileges of the Company ultimately unnecessary as an aid to the Government expenditure. Now, he (the Earl of Ripon) thought that the financial condition of India was at present such as to justify Ministers in their plan, because there were reasonable grounds for expecting a surplus revenue. [The noble Earl here entered into a long detail of figures relating to the revenue and expenditure of the three presidencies, showing, in crores and lacks of rupees, sicca, and others, that there would be an available surplus revenue, after paying all charges, of 198,000 l.] Such being the pecuniary means, which the noble Lord could not dispute, the noble Lord had proceeded to insist that the bargain with the East-India Company was improvident. He contended that it was a compromise between the State and the commerce; and the noble Lord had admitted, that if he had continued in office he should himself have brought it to a compromise. The noble Lord had suggested an application of the funds of the Company to the payment of the unremittable debt, and the conversion of the remittable into an unremittable debt. Undoubtedly, that suggestion was worthy of consideration, but to act upon it, belonged properly to those who would be at the head of the Indian government, and there was nothing whatever in the present plan, to prevent that suggestion from being acted upon. Leaving,
194
however, the subject of revenue, he would proceed to refer to a few of the general to pies introduced by the noble Lord in the course of his speech. The noble Lord objected to that part of the plan by which the Company were required to abstain from trade, and appeared to think that it would be better to leave them a discretion to trade or not, as the Company might think proper. Now, he thought, that the history of the Company's commercial operations did not warrant the supposition that, in the event of un-limited competition, they would be able to carry on trade with success. Competition in India had already utterly destroyed all the Company's profits, and they had, therefore, wisely abandoned the attempt to trade. Look at the situation of the China trade, which had ceased to be so advantageous to the Company, in consequence of the facilities they had themselves liberally afforded to private traders. Was it not, therefore, reasonable to suppose, when the trade should be opened generally, that the Company would be unable to carry on commercial operations with advantage? He said, therefore, that it would be more beneficial to the proprietors to be secured the payment of 630,000 l. on the territorial revenues of India than to be left dependent on the fluctuations of commerce. The noble Lord said, that by the separation of their character of governors from their character of traders, the Company would be degraded: rather a singular proposition; but supposing the case to stand as staled by the noble Lord, it should be recollected that the noble Lord's own plan led gradually and eventually to a separation of the commercial and sovereign character of the Company. The noble Lord's own plan, indeed, was much the same as that of the Government, although he attacked then! so violently; for though he said at one time that he would not deprive the Company of the power of trading as a Company, yet he should wish them gradually to withdraw from it. That would only be a postponement of the change; but the change itself was as certain with the noble Lord's plan as with that of the Government. The noble Lord then objected to the putting of the government of India under one Governor General, and giving him the superintendence of the whole dominion; and he called the plan mischievous; but though it was true that

195
Mr. Mount Stuart Elphinstone had objected to such a plan, yet it was recommended by the authority, (at least equal) of Sir John Malcohn, Lord William Bentinck, Sir Charles Metcalfe, and the three gentlemen—Messrs. Hill, Bayley, and Bax—to whom the consideration of the subject had been referred. Ail these were persons of great eminence and experience in Indian affairs. Ministers, therefore, were not liable to the sweeping censure cast upon them by the noble Lord. They had not proceeded on the crude and fanciful theories which the noble Lord imagined; they had consulted persons of authority, and had not acted without due inquiry and deliberation. The fourth presidency had been objected to by the noble Lord, but only on account of the expense; but if it should appear to be needful expense, it ought not to form an insuperable obstacle to its formation. That was not a new project, it had been suggesled as early as 1808 by a gentleman of great talent and experience; and to him the reasoning of that gentleman appeared quite conclusive. Many circumstances connected with the geographical position of the north-western provinces of India rendered it necessary to have a vigilant and active government in that quarter, which formed the outwork of our Indian territories, and was the only point where there was a chance of the empire being successfully assailed. The noble Lord seemed to think it absurd to attempt to construct a general code applicable to people so different in manners, habits, and opinions, as those of our Indian territories; and he would admit that nothing could be more unwise than an endeavour to screw all persons within the operation of the same laws; but, nevertheless, there were a great number of general principles applicable to all, and it was desirable to assimilate the law and practice as it regarded them, as much as possible. To that extent only would the labour of the Commissioners go, and when it was recollected that all their recommendations would be referred to the authorities at home, he could not conceive that the Commission was liable, either on the score of principle or practice, to one reasonable objection. The noble Lord in other cases relied on the authority of Mr. Elphinstone, but on this point. Mr. Elphinstone's opinion was decidedly favourable to the Government plan. With respect to the councils in the several pre
196
sidencies which the noble Lord supposed were to be abolished, but the noble Lord had not understood the Government plan. The government did not mean to say, that the councils should be altogether abolished but its object was to place the governor of each of the separate presidencies more Immediately under the control of the Governor-General who would be competent with the sanction of the Government at home, to appoint a Council at each Presidency if he thought fit. It was not in-tended, therefore, unconditionally, to abolish the Councils, hut to place them under the power of the Governor General. The noble Lord had treated that part of the plan which went to facilitate the introduction of Europeans into India with contempt. The noble Lord had described it as useless, because there was he said, now no obstacle to respectable European settlers in India. He did not mean to say, that there was any serious legal obstacle, but there were practical difficulties in the way of enterprising men, and he thought it was extremely desirable to facilitate by every possible means the introduction of European skill and capital into our Eastern dominions. He then could not agree with the noble Lord. Convinced of the advantage of introducing European skill and capital in to that country, he apprehended that there was no danger of poor and idle adventurers resorting thither. It was a necessary consequence of the admission of Europeans to place them on the same footing as the natives, and under the same laws, with a view to prevent injustice. On reviewing the whole plan, he conceived himself justified in asserting that Government had not acted hastily or without extensive inquiry, and the advantage of much experience of the practical results of the renewal of the last charter. They had given to the subject the best consideration in their power, and had been actuated by no object other than an endeavour to combine justice to the body of the proprietors constituting the East-India Company in their commercial capacity with the happiness of those 60,000,000 or 70,000,000 of subjects who looked for protection to the British Legislature.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that having been so long a servant of the East-India Company, having served so many years of his life in that country, having witnessed the benefits conferred by the Government now about to be put an end

197
to on the people of that country, having seen the operation of that Government at a period of his life when he was capable of judging of its character, having had reason to believe from what he saw then, and from what he had seen since, that that Government was the best administered, the most purely administered Government that ever existed—a Government that provided best for the happiness of the people committed to its charge—with such recollections and opinions deeply and unalterably impressed on his mind, it was impossible that he could be present at a discussion of a question of such a description without arresting their Lordships' attention for a short time whilst he delivered his opinions on the measure proposed by his Majesty's Ministers. At such a late hour of the night, when their Lordships were necessarily exhausted by the attention they paid to so interesting a topic, he would not follow the noble Marquess (Larsdown) into the consideration of whether a chartered Company which was to carry on the Government and the trade at the same time, was or was not the establishment best calculated to carry on the Government and trade of an Empire like India. That was not the question before their Lordships. When he heard such a discussion he could not but recollect what he had seen in that country; he could not but recal to his mind the history of the East-India Company for the period of the last fifty or sixty years; he could not but recollect the days of its misfortunes; he could not but remember the meridian of its glory, nor could he shut his eyes to the situation in which it stood at the present moment. He would not pretend to say whether there were forty, fifty, sixty, or a hundred millions of people raider the British Government in India (for those extremes of numbers had been taken in the course of the Debate), but he would say, that there was an immense population, and that the revenue amounted to 20,000,000 l. per annum, and that after the Company had been engaged in wars during the whole term, or a greater part of the term, of a century, they had a debt which amounted to only the sum of forty millions sterling. He was willing to acknowledge that even such a debt was not desirable; but still he maintained that it was deceiving the people of England to say, that a Company that had thus conducted its affairs was unlit for the functions
198
of Government, or unfit for the management of commerce. This Government, which had been thus administered for so many years, was at last to be put down by the proposed arrangement, and the people of England were to be taught, that it was a Government neither calculated for trade nor for general control. The East-India Company had shown the situation in which they were after all the circumstances of their history. He would admit with the noble Lord who had last spoken, that the Legislature had always retained the power of revising the institutions of the Government of India, and for the carrying on the trade of the Eastern dominions of the Crown; but it was evident that the Legislature had never lost sight of one thing, it had never forgotten that the Company had a Charter to be considered in all future arrangements. The present plan paid no such respect to former stipulations. They reversed the situation of the Company; they altered entirely all the relations in which the trade stood, not only with respect to the East-Indian revenue and finances, but likewise with respect to this country, and to the local interests of great towns, such as London, in which the trade was established. There could be no doubt whatever, that the alterations now to be made in the situation of the Company did very much reduce its power; which however had been reduced for twenty years past. Let their Lordships but look at the state of a Company at the head of a capital of from twelve to fourteen millions. Anybody of persons carrying on a trade with such a capital in this town must have been possessed of enormous patronage, which must have rendered it a great and independent Company, and much more independent than it could ever be again. It would never have the same power in relation to his Majesty's Government that it had had; and what was yet worse, it would not have the same power in relation to its old servants. It was no longer in the same independent, respectable, and influential situation in which it had existed for so long a period. These considerations he deemed to be of extreme importance, and he trusted that they would have their weight upon that House. He would now beg leave to remind their Lordships of one curious part of the proposed transactions. If their Lordships would read the correspondence they would see that the Company

199
in future were to be bound, as a matter of course, to sign any despatch which might be sent to them; and this the Company were to do, not directly or by themselves, but by a signing officer to be appointed for them, and for that purpose. He begged to remind the House that the same proposition was made to the Company so far back as the year 1784, when Mr. Pitt had recommended the arrangement, and the Company had not only refused to adopt it, but had successfully resisted the pro-position. Notwithstanding this, upon the present occasion the proposition must be adopted, and the Company would have no option but to be placed in the situation of implicitly obeying whatever his Majesty's Ministers might be pleased to direct. He would put one question of some importance to his Majesty's Ministers. He would ask, was it intended, or was it not, that the Company's trade to China should be finished at the present moment, or was it intended that it should go on until April 1834? This would make a great difference with respect to the finances of the Company. The question would affect a great number of chartered vessels. It was absolutely necessary, as well for the Company as for the private trader, that this matter should be speedily settled. Look at the consequences of this transaction with reference to the city of London itself. The East-India Company was a body trading on a capital of about fourteen millions sterling. Great as was the city of London, in relation to the kingdom, important as it was in relation to the whole trade of the community, would any man venture to say, that the withdrawing of such an immense trading capital from it, would not most seriously affect the inhabitants of the metropolis? The residents of Poplar and of that neighbourhood depended entirely on the business of the East-India Company, and many thousand persons were employed in different grades in the Company's service. It was impossible then to put down this trade without creating the most extraordinary distress, and their Lordships heard of the distresses of the industrious classes every day which were occasioned by such sudden, unexpected and unnecessary destructions of trade, or alterations of the long-established channels of commerce. It was his opinion that the Government ought to have endeavoured to prevail on the Company to continue their trade to China as a Joint-Stock
200
Company. The Government ought also to have relaxed the Commutation Act, and adopted other means to induce them to carry on the trade. It was true that the people of this country were desirous of participating in the trade with China, but still they had never expressed a desire that the Company should not likewise participate in that valuable commerce. Had the Company been relieved of the oppression of the Commutation Act, and obtained their fair and just chances of success as free traders, he was confident that neither the Company nor the country would have objected to the proposed arrangement, and that arrangement might have been pressed with advantage to both parties. But the noble Lord who spoke last asked how the Company were to continue to pay their dividends? Why, supposing their trade to have gone on as badly as it could have done, their dividends would have been secured to them by the saving of expense in the Government of India. One of the worst parts of the plan was, that the Company would have to draw their dividends from India. That necessity would tend to increase the sums annually to be brought home in the shape of remittances to such an amount as could not fail to prove vastly inconvenient to commerce. It was, as had been before observed, remittances which principally occasioned inconvenience to commerce. The noble Marquess in opening his case, had dwelt much on the state of the finances of India, and had referred to various documents to show the state of those finances. As unfortunately the papers to which the noble Marquess had so referred were not on the Table of their Lordships' House, it was out of his power to form an opinion of their accuracy, and he had been unable to follow the noble Lords' in their statements, but, from calculations that he had himself made, he was confident the noble Marquess had much underrated the amount of these deficiencies. From his calculations he was ready to contend, that, from the new arrangement about to be made, it would be necessary to remit more than 2,700,000 l. a-year, which would press greatly and injuriously on the trade of that country, particularly if the remittable loan were not paid off. The noble Lord opposite had stated that he, (the Duke of Wellington) had intimated to the Directors, that if they could not carry on the Government

201
of India in any other way, they must do so by borrowing. That certainly was not the view which he took of the question. He admitted that borrowing might be resorted to if a necessity existed, but he thought it had been resorted to, to too great an extent already. There was, however, another mode by which the Government could be carried on without borrowing, and that was by a reduction of every expense which was not absolutely necessary. He had already stated he was confident that the arrangements made for carrying-on the Government of India at home were calculated to deteriorate the authority of the East-India Company among their own servants in India; and he felt further bound to tell their Lordships that he considered that if such an arrangement took place it would prove ere long highly detrimental to Great Britain in the legislation of India. He cordially agreed with his noble friend who bad spoken second in the debate of that evening, that the effect of all the arrangements in the Government of India would be found prejudicial to any interests reserved to the Company. The appointment of Councillors by the Court of Directors had been always considered by the East-India Company as one of the means by which they were enabled to exercise a moderate degree of influence over the Governor. These appointments, however, he found were to be no longer made by the Court of Directors; and when, in addition to that circumstance, he found that their appointment was left altogether with the Governor General, the very individual whose proceedings they were originally intended to control, and moreover only to be appointed when such Governor General thought fit, he confessed he felt much alarm for the general success of the Indian Government. From experience he knew the vast importance of having a responsible authority in each of the subordinate Governments, and the necessity that every proceeding relating to such Governments should be put upon record, and therefore he was the more urgent in calling upon his Majesty's Ministers to pause ere they deprived the general Government of India of the check which those Councillors were upon the proceedings of the Governor General. He would also beg to impress on the Government the danger of destroying the principle of "the Governor in Council." All the acts of the Governor General ought to be of the
202
Governor in Council; and when he differed from the opinion of the members in Council, he was bound to state his reasons in writing; and if they still differed, he was authorized to act on his own responsibility; but this statement of his reasons brought the whole of his acts under the consideration of the court at home. If, however, the Governor had to appoint his council at will, there would be less chance of their differing, and of course lower opportunities of bringing their acts under the view of the Directors. He must also object to that part of the arrangement which made the other presidencies dependent on that of Bengal. It had been stated in the course of the debate that the Governments of Fort St. George and Bombay bad been the causes of all the extravagances in the general Government of India, and that they ought to be abolished. Government proposed to diminish their authority. It was true that the resources of Bengal were those which kept up the whole machinery of the Government of the country, but he look upon himself to deny—and having served in both the Government of Fort St. George and Bombay he trusted bis denial would have some weight—that anything like extravagance had or indeed could take place in the management of either of those Governments. In proof of that assertion he might mention that, while serving in the Government of Fort St. George, although in command of 60,000 men, he had never incurred the expense of one shilling beyond the regulated expenditure without recording every such expense, and leaving to the Governor to judge whether it was proper or not that such expenditure ought to be incurred. Had he not dune so, he should have been obliged, by the regulations of the Government to meet all the charges for it out of his own pocket. People might talk of the necessity of having checks to expenditure, but he defied any one to point out how a stronger check than that to which he alluded could be imposed. If, then, no proof of extravagance could be made out as against these presidencies, he would strongly advise Ministers to consider well before they decided upon diminishing their authority. The great advantage which they offered was, that if any insurrection took place in their parts of the country, they at once supplied a sufficient force to quell it. Supposing the presidency of Fort Saint George to be abolished, what

203
would be the consequence should an insurrection take place within its present district? Why, it would take three months before a competent force could be obtained from Calcutta; and yet it was supposed to be economical to deprive those presidencies of their local authorities, and to establish a despotic power over them in the hands of the Governor-General. It was likewise understood, that the nature of the office of Governor-General was to be entirely changed. On that point, he had only to say, that he had seen a great deal of Governor-Generals, and had also means of judging of the nature and extent of the powers intrusted to them, and the result of his observations was a conviction, that they were vested with as much power as they could desire to have, or could exercise with satisfaction to themselves or those under them. There was another part of the measure, which he felt it his duty to entreat Ministers would consider of before they adopted it; that was, the separation of the province of Bengal from under the immediate care of the Governor-General, giving it a Governor and Presidency of its own. The province of Bengal was the source and spring of the power of India, and should be never lost sight of by the government of that country. As well might the noble Earl think of remaining first Minister of the Crown, without the control over the Treasury department, which he now exercised as its First Lord, as the Governor-General of India think of carrying on his government with a separate power to administer the province of Bengal. Let them look to that province with reference to its trade, to its agriculture, to its population, or to its finances, and they would find it more productive in each of those respects than all the other Presidencies put together. It was, in fact, the source on which the government of India had to rely for every thing, and should not, under any circumstances, be lost sight of. He next came to speak of the power with which it was proposed to intrust the Governor-General of legislating for India. That power he thought would be too extensive to be hastily intrusted to any individual, more particularly as it was to be so exercised, subject only to the control of a Council under the appointment of that individual. The object for which that power was to be intrusted had reference, he believed, to the expected increase in the resort of British subjects to India.
204
Now, if there were any one point in which all parties had agreed, and he made this assertion from a perusal of the evidence taken before the Committee which sat to inquire into the subject in both Houses of Parliament, it was, that the natives of India should, as much as possible, be employed in the revenue and judicial establishments of the country. That point was again and again impressed on the attention of Ministers in the evidence of last Session, and so likewise was another point to which he begged to direct attention—namely, that Europeans ought not to be allowed to resort to the Indian territory, as, by doing so, they invariably became an impediment to the employment of natives in judicial relations. He would defy the Governor-General or any other authority, to employ a native in any judicial establishment in which it was possible to employ an European. One thing on which the noble Lords opposite calculated as a result of their plan was, that large capital would be applied in carrying on trade in India. It was true, that large sums had been embarked in the cultivation of indigo and of sugar; but let it not be imagined that all the capital so embarked, was the property of the persons immediately engaged in those speculations. The money was, for the greater part, advanced by the houses of agency in India, and was, in general, the savings of the civil and military servants of the Company, who foolishly placed it in such houses, and were thus, by their misplaced confidence, deprived of the hard earnings of a long service in the country; but noble Lords might depend upon it, that men of large capital would not go out and risk that capital in speculations which would be unsafe—and certainly it would be unsafe to embark large capital in such speculations in India. He must express his regret, that the advice of the late Sir John Malcolm had not been taken, of constituting an independent body in London, representing the interests of India. Such a body would be an effectual check on the acts of Government with respect to India; but he was sorry to see, that, instead of making the only body of men which did represent Indian interests independent, this measure would take from them much of the power and influence which they now possessed.
The Marquess of Lansdown, in reply, begged most positively to deny, that either he or any of his noble colleagues, had declared that the Company had ever shown

205
itself unable or unfit to govern India, and the noble Duke in so saying had, unintentionally, no doubt, wholly misrepresented what he had said. So far from having said or thought anything of the kind, he had most fully admitted the great ability of the Company in governing India, and the credit which was due to them in having reared up so many able servants, who had shown so much fitness for governing that country. He had admitted, that under the government of the Company, the condition of the people had been greatly improved, and that they had been made comfortable and happy, to an extent which they had not experienced under any former government. He was anxious to set himself right with the noble Duke and with the House on this point. There was another part of the noble Duke's statement, which he owned had surprised him not a little. The noble Duke had expressed his regret, that the appointment of Members of Council should be taken from the Court of Directors, and vested in the Governor-General. The noble Duke must have seen some very erroneous copy of the Bill, when he stated this to be a part of its provisions, but he was surprised that the noble Baron (Ellenborough), who had seen the Bill, had not set the noble Duke right on this point; for in the Bill it was distinctly stated in two parts of it, that in every government in which a President was to be appointed, the government at home would have the right to appoint the Members of Council. The noble Baron complained of the degradation of the Company; but what was the situation in which the noble Baron would place the Company. The noble Baron proposed, that the Company should continue to trade as a Company, although it was admitted that, both at Canton and in London, their trade for the future was not likely to prove beneficial to themselves. Indeed, it had been distinctly proved, that, for several years past, their trade had been rapidly on the decline. What, then, would be the situation of the Company, if the noble Baron's plan were adopted? Instead of having the lien which it was now proposed to give them on the territory of India, it would have to depend entirely upon the surplus revenue of which the noble Duke had spoken; and if that surplus revenue should not be realized, which the declining state of the trade rendered extremely probable, the Company would have, hereafter, to come to Parliament
206
in formâ pauperis, and to beg for the adoption of some measure which should relieve it from the difficulty of its situation. Whether this would be more consistent with the dignity of the Company than the position in which this measure would place them, he must leave it to their Lordships to determine. What was it that Government proposed? A measure which secured to the proprietors the whole of their dividends, independent of Parliament and the Government; which gave to them a lien upon the territory of India; and at the same time constituted in opposition to what the noble Baron had said, a great interest in the proprietors of Indian stocks. By this arrangement, the Company would be left to administer the government of the country solely for the benefit of the country, and not from any more sordid motive—which, notwithstanding every thing that the noble Baron had said, had undoubtedly mixed itself up with the administration of the affairs of India. He was surprised to hear the noble Duke represent these Resolutions as calculated to inflict an unjust loss on the city of London, He had never heard that the city of don had a monopoly of the East-India trade. He admitted, ex necessitate rei, that whilst the East-India Company had a monopoly of the trade lo the east, the tradesmen and shopkeepers of London must have benefited by it; but he had never yet heard that they had an exclusive right to it. That the merchants of Liverpool, the manufacturers of Manchester, the warehousemen of Glasgow, had not a right to share in the advantages of this trade, was an assertion he had never heard doubted. The city of London had made no complaint of this injury, and he had no doubt that the citizens would readily admit that every village, town, and outport in the kingdom, had as equitable a right to a share in this trade as they themselves had. The noble Duke adverted to the injury arising out of the difficulty of remittances from India, which the noble Duke thought had affected the trade of the Company. It appeared that the East-India Company had been obliged to rely hit, herto, and up to this time, upon the assistance of private merchants, in bills, in carrying on the trade to Canton. But, without relying upon that instance, he would, upon general principles, say, that by whomsoever the trade might be carried on—whether by a Company, or by individual merchants—there would arise a

207
necessity for the same, number of bills of be obtained in the market; and those bills would be applicable for remittances to the same extent as before, or even to a greater extent. When the noble Baron talked with something like contempt of the application of general principles upon a subject of this kind, he should be reminded that the arguments which he had used upon the subject were precisely, totibus verbis, the same arguments which were used against the admission of the private trader in 1813; and that sneers against the philosopher who advised the introduction of the private trader, were then employed by others from whom the noble Baron seemed to have borrowed them. The noble Baron deprecated theories and theorists, in precisely the same words, and with exactly the same confidence, as his predecessor in 1813, with respect to the success of the private trader in India. The private trader was, however, admitted, and what had been the consequence? Why, that he had completely succeeded and had beaten the Company; notwithstanding the privileges it still retained. While the latter had been declining, the former had gone on progressively increasing; so that the Company had little trade left, the private trader having engrossed it altogether. The noble Duke had alluded to some imputed misconduct of the indigo planters. Now, he denied that misconduct, on the authority of a report of the Magistrates appointed by the East-India Company to inquire into it. Those Magistrates were hostile to the planters, and would have condemned them if they could. But after they had inquired into 437 cases, they slated, that they found the presence and industry of these indigo planters to be beneficial to the country. The noble Duke had expressed also a great deal of apprehension at the proposition for allowing the free access of Europeans into India, who, he says, are not very likely to submit patiently to the control of natives. Upon this point, they had the distinct opinion of persons who had presided over the Local Courts in the distant provinces of India. The noble Duke attached so much importance to this part of the subject, that he must beg leave to trouble their Lordships with a few lines from the authority of the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Bengal, who said, 'We leave the European owner, or occupier of lands, or the manufacturer, at great distances from
208
Calcutta, amenable only to the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court, or subject only to the Mofussil Courts, with the limited powers which they at present possess—a system which would tend to such a system of fraud and injustice, and leave the natives so entirely at the mercy of the settlers, that I think it would be an insuperable obstacle to the allowing of Europeans to settle in the interior. I am, therefore, satisfied, that all persons in the interior of the country must be subject to the Courts of the district in which they reside.—The great extension of the British territories since the Charter of 1784, has given to the Court a range of jurisdiction which, at places remote from Calcutta, can only be considered a mockery of justice, if it be not the means of fraud and oppression. There can be no doubt, therefore, that difficulties and inconveniences are constantly arising from the undefined and uncertain state of the Court's jurisdiction, which are alike perplexing and harassing to the suitors, the Judges, and all who are concerned in the administration of justice.' He might add to this the authority of Sir Charles Metcalfe, who had been eulogized in high terms by the noble Baron, but in no higher terms than he deserved, and who had expressed his regret that the Supreme Courts had thrown any obstacles in the way of the settlement of Europeans. Sir Charles said, 'I have long lamented that our countrymen in India are excluded from the possession of land, and other ordinary rights of peaceable subjects. I believe that the existence of these restrictions impede the prosperity of our Indian empire, and of course that their removal would tend to promote it. I am also of opinion that their abolition is necessary for that progressive increase of revenue, without which our income cannot keep pace with the continually increasing expense of our establishment. I am further convinced, that our possession of India must always be precarious, unless we take root, by having an influential portion of the population attached to our Government by common interests and sympathies. Every measure, therefore, which is calculated to facilitate the settlement of our countrymen in India, and to remove the obstructions by which it is impeded, must, I conceive, conduce to the stability of our rule, and to the welfare of the people

209
subject to our dominion.' That was the opinion of Sir Charles Metcalfe, who certainly was not one of those persons whom the noble Baron would class as theorists. As to the division of the governments, that did not form part of the present Resolutions, but would become the subject of consideration in a future bill. The necessity of providing a separate government for the north-western provinces was universally admitted. He was inclined to concur in the opinion, that Calcutta should remain the principal seat of government in India, but he saw no inconvenience in forming a fourth presidency. There was no intention to disturb the councils as they existed at present, or the right of the directors to appoint whom they please to those councils; and he fully agreed with the noble Duke, that those councils should be councils of record, and that when any measure of sudden emergency was required, those who dissented from its propriety should state their objections in writing.
Lord Ellenboroughin explanation, said, that unless the speech of the right hon. the President of the Board of Control had been most strangely misrepresented in all the ordinary vehicles of public information, he had stated, that it was his intention to abolish the subordinate councils. He (Lord Ellenborough) saw in this bill that the Governor-General was to have an executive power. By a subsequent clause the directors were to have power to appoint the members of the council, but the clauses which came after that were so worded, as to suit a government either with or without council. Seeing that the right hon. Gentleman had never complained of the received version of his speech as a misrepresentation, and that the Bill had been so worded as to suit a government either with or without council, he had fallen into the error on which the noble Marquess had animadverted.
The Marquess of Lansdowncould undertake to say, without consulting his right hon. friend, that the report of his speech must be incorrect, for it had always been intended that the Court of Directors should have power to appoint the members of council. He would take that opportunity to mention a circumstance which he had forgotten to state before, and that was, that a noble Marquess who had conducted the government of India with no less renown to himself than benefit to the empire, the present Lord High Steward (the Mar
210
quess Wellesley) had carefully considered the principles of the plan, and had authorized him to say, that had he been able to attend in his place, which he was prevented from doing by indisposition, he should have expressed his entire concurrence in these Resolutions.
The Resolutions agreed to.