Lords Sitting of 26 February 1833

MINUTES.
Bill committed. Change of Venue (Ireland).
Petitions presented. By the Duke of RICHMOND, from Horsham, for Regulating the Hours for Employing Children in Factories.—By the same from Dorrington and from two Places in Derbyshire; by the Earl of CAWDOR, from Nairn; by Lord DACRE, from Wigan, Standish, and other Places; by the Marquess of Stafford, from Kirkwall; and by the Bishop of LINCOLN, from Burntisland,—for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.—By Lord DICRE, from Newport; and by the Marquess of Stafford, from eight Dissenting Congregations; by the Earl of CAWDOR, from Eleven Protestant Dissenting Congregations; by Lord AUCKLAND, from Cliff Regis, Doorfield, and Barrington; by the Bishop of LINCOLN, from Brigstock; and by Lord SUFFIELD, from the Resident Missionaries of Jamaica, against Slavery.—By Lord TEYNHAM, from Dublin, against Tithes and Church Cess; from Castlebar and Aughagoure, for a Repeal of the Legislative Union, the Abolition of Church Cess, Tithes, and Grand Jury Laws; and from the Latter, for Vote by Ballot.

REMOVAL OF MR. STANLEY.
Lord Teynhampresented a Petition from the Parish of St. Michael and St. George, in Dublin, praying for the Abolition of Tithes, and for the removal of Mr. Stanley from the Chief Secretaryship of Ireland.
Earl Greyconsidered a petition to that

1133
House, which prayed for the removal of a person appointed to an office by the Crown, could not be admitted. It was evident that the power of removing him did not rest in that House; and, there-fore, it would be preposterous to admit a petition for an object which it was not in the power of the House to carry into effect.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that he was not one who felt disposed in any way to close the doors of that House against the petitions of any class of his Majesty's subjects. On the contrary, he was disposed, if possible, to overlook any irregularity which might accidentally occur in the wording of petitions, if there were no objections on the very face of the petition to its being received. He should have been inclined to extend this rule to the present petition, without paying any regard to the merits of its prayer; but that House had not the power, any more than the petitioners themselves, of accomplishing the object which the petitioners had in view; and, therefore, it could answer no good purpose to receive the petition; it would be a mere mockery of the right of petition, than which the people had no right more valuable, if their Lordships were to entertain a petition, praying them to do something which it was as impossible that they should do as if they had been asked to do something physically impossible. The appointment of any Minister depended entirely upon the Crown. If the petition had been, that their Lordships should move an humble Address to the Crown, praying the removal of any Minister appointed by the Crown, that would have been perfectly regular. The objection, therefore, was merely one arising from the inconsistency in petitioning the House to do that which they had not the power of doing; and did not extend to a petition to the same effect if tendered in a proper form; but worded in the way in which it now was worded, it was impossible, in his opinion, for that House to entertain it.
Lord Teynham withdrew the petition.

TITHES.—(ENGLAND.)
Lord Kingsaid, that he had to present a Petition to their Lordships connected with the subject of tithes in this country; and although he had been frequently rebuked by certain members of the right reverend Beach, for dilating upon this
1134
topic, he could not refrain in this instance, from calling their Lordships' attention to the peculiar hardships of which the petitioners complained. The petition came from a small parish in a remote district of the country, the inhabitants of which amounted to 800, and who subsisted entirely by agriculture and fishing. It appeared, from the petition, that there was not a more quiet or peaceable parish in the kingdom, until, in an evil hour, his noble and learned friend upon the Woolsack presented the present rector to it. The petitioners stated, that in the course of the last spring, the rector laid claim to a tithe upon herrings caught in the sea, which claim they alleged that there was no custom existing in the place to sanction; and it would be impossible to describe to their Lordships the disturbance which the raising of such a claim excited in this hitherto tranquil district. It, in truth, produced a complete tempest there, and he could only convey to their Lordships something like an idea of the subsequent state of the parish, by quoting to them an expression, employed in a letter addressed to him on the subject—namely, "that the rector had made a little Ireland of the parish." A "little Ireland" he (Lord King) believed it would be made, unless something was done to put an end to the agitation which the claim set up by the rector had excited. One of the first effects of his putting forward such a claim was, that the tithe-proctor was burnt in effigy, and that the rector was obliged to fly. He had already stated, that the petitioners alleged that no claim for tithes on fish had ever before been set up in that part of the country. He was aware that tithe upon fish had been claimed in some places in Sussex, and the claim proceeded upon the principle that upon every thing that had an annual increase, the clergy had a right to tithe. Upon the same principle the persons who claimed tithe upon fish, also demanded it upon bricks. In another part of their petition, the petitioners stated that they had had no resident rector for a great number of years. He could confirm that statement, for he had lived forty years in the parish, and had never known the rector to reside there. It would appear, indeed, as if the best qualification for a rector of this place consisted in being the near relative of the Mayor, or of some of the Aldermen of the borough of Tiverton, The living to which he was alluding was

1135
in the gift of the Great Seal, as he had already intimated. Now, through the means of the Reform Bill, the Great Seal had of late been emancipated; but, like slaves when suddenly restored to freedom, it did not seem to know how to use its liberty properly. His noble and learned friend on the Woolsack wished to stand well with the Church, and with the high Church too, and his noble friend had been remarked for his coquetting with the right reverend Peers upon that side of the House; but though his noble friend gave them the livings at his disposal, still he would find that he would not be able to get their votes. Soothe them as he would, his noble friend might be assured, that he would never succeed in inducing the right reverend Prelates to lend their support to the Government to which he belonged. It was a well-known fact in our history, that the Prelates of the Established Church had always shown themselves ready tools in the hands of a Tory Government; but now that the Tories were expelled from power, and that a liberal Government had been established, no such subserviency would be any longer exhibited on the part of the right reverend Prelates. He would beg to remind his noble and learned friend of what the Marquess of Wharton said to William 3rd, who was observing to him that the Tories were an exceedingly accommodating people, and that he liked them extremely. "I agree with your Majesty," replied the Marquess, "that no people can be more accommodating than the Tories, but your Majesty must remember that you are not the King of the Tories." So he (Lord King) would tell his noble friend, that he must remember that the Government to which he belonged was not a Tory, but a liberal and popular Government, and that it would be a vain effort to seek to enroll amongst its supporters, high Church and high Tory partisans. He was sorry to say, that in the present instance, his noble friend had not provided a good shepherd for the flock. The noble Lord concluded by presenting the petition, which was from the parish of Porlock in Somersetshire, complaining of the clergyman; and it prayed not only for the removal of the particular grievance of which the petitioners complained, but also for a general amelioration of the tithe system throughout the country.
The Puke of Cumberlandinquired
1136
whether the tithe in question had been exacted?
Lord Kingsaid, it had not; but that in consequence of the claim having been raised, the proctor had been burnt in effigy, and the rector had fled from the parish.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that he had been a little alarmed by his noble friend's statement in the first instance, from which it would appear as if the reverend person alluded to had actually levied this tithe, and had done so in defiance of long-existing custom. It would seem, however, that the petitioners only complained of the reverend gentleman's laying claim to this tithe, to which they maintained he had no right, for it did not appear from their statement that he had taken any steps to enforce the claim. But if, as they alleged, there existed no custom there for the taking of such tithes, the course which they had to pursue, should the rector endeavour to exact them, was plain and obvious; they had only to resort to due course of law for their protection, instead of appealing to the Legislature on the subject—they had merely to go into the Courts and show that there existed no custom to authorize such a claim, and they would be perfectly safe from the rector's demands.
Lord Ellenboroughreminded the noble and learned Lord, that the petition also prayed for a general revision of the tithe system.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that he could well understand that portion of the prayer of the petition; and this he would say, that no person, not even his noble friend who had presented the petition, could feel more strongly than he did, that that part of the petition was well founded, and no person could be more ready to admit than he was, that that part of its prayer should be granted, and that the Legislature should set at once about improving the tithe system—should set about placing that system upon a proper footing both as regarded the persons to whom tithes were due, and the persons from whom tithes were due—upon a footing equally beneficial to the lay as well as the clerical portion of the community. With respect to the reverend gentleman to whom this petition alluded, he must observe, that he had never in the course of his life been accessary to an appointment with which he was more

1137
satisfied. He had never known that reverend gentleman—indeed up to the present hour he had never seen him—but he understood from those who did know him that he was an exceedingly fit person to receive such an appointment, and that, under the circumstances in which he was placed, it would be an important object for him to obtain it. He had previously done duty at one of the new Churches in a great and populous town, and by the burning of that Church he was reduced, with his wife and family, literally to a state of destitution. Such was the statement made to him (the Lord Chancellor) at the time. Even if a sum of money could have been raised for the rebuilding of the Church in question, it could not be rebuilt in less than two or three years, and all that time this reverend gentleman would have remained without the slightest means of subsistence for himself or his family, the more especially as the whole of his emoluments, when the Church was standing, was derived from the pew rents. Such, he repeated, was the statement made to him with regard to this reverend gentleman, by individuals upon whose authority he depended, and who recommended the reverend gentleman to him as a fit individual for the appointment. Though the reverend Gentleman was not known to him, he was acquainted with some members of his family, and he could assure the House that it was no species of political intercourse, nor anything of a community of political feeling that had prompted him to confer this appointment upon the individual alluded to. He thought, on the other hand, that differences on such points afforded no reason why he should not give him this appointment, the more especially as he had heard a most unexceptionable account of him. For him to enter into inquiries on occasions of this kind, and to try the capacity or incapacity of every clergyman that might be recommended for one of the livings in the gift of the Great Seal,—for the Lord Chancellor to do that, the House would see, and he was sure that his noble friend in his candour would admit, was absolutely and altogether impossible. It was necessary, therefore, for him to refer to certain persons in whom he placed confidence, as to the selection of those clergymen to whom such livings should be given; and nothing that he had heard from his noble friend had induced him to alter his
1138
opinion that he had made a fit and proper selection in the present instance. That opinion would undoubtedly have been shaken if his noble friend had brought forward some proofs to show that this rev. gentleman had been acting in the manner he described; and if it had been shown that he had been exacting tithes to which he had no right, he could only say, that the reverend gentleman must be an extremely altered individual from the person whom he had sent to fill this living in the county of Somerset. When he sent the rev. gentleman there, he was utterly incapable of exacting tithes that were not his due, he would say, not only to the amount of a herring, but even to the amount of a sprat. If the rev. gentleman had since changed, as the noble Lord had described, he could not possibly account for the metamorphosis, except by supposing that the rector had fallen into an imitation of the conduct of other persons in that part of the country. His noble friend was quite mistaken in supposing that this appointment was made in consequence of the emancipation of the Great Seal, effected by the Reform Bill. The fact was, that the appointment was made before the Reform Bill was passed; it was one of the first he had made under the Great Seal. His noble friend was still more mistaken in the statement which he made respecting the assistance which he (the Lord Chancellor) had felt it his duty to solicit from the right reverend Prelates of those dioceses where the livings attached to the Great Seal were situated, as his noble friend described it, with regard to the selection of the reverend individuals to fill them. He utterly denied that, in doing so, he had in any manner been influenced by any motives of the kind attributed to him by his noble friend, and he had the best possible grounds, and the best possible evidence, to prove that such was not the case. He utterly denied that he had ever done so with a view to conciliate the political feelings of those right reverend Prelates, or to win them over to support those political opinions with regard to which he and his noble friend in a great degree concurred, though in some respects they materially differed. He would most unequivocally deny, that any such idea had ever entered into his head; and, indeed, if it had, he should have afforded just grounds for his noble friend's laughter on the present occasion,

1139
and he should, no doubt, be fated to experience that disappointment which his noble friend, assuming that he had such objects in view, had foretold would await him. He had stated, soon after his accession to office, that the number of exceedingly small livings which were at the disposal of the Great Seal, rendered it absolutely impossible for the Lord Chancellor, without trusting to the recommendations of others, to discharge well and faithfully that branch of the duties imposed on him; for though, with regard to livings of 200 l., and 300 l., and 400 l. a-year, it was easy for the Chancellor to find fit and proper persons to fill them, and to satisfy himself as to the qualifications and merits of the candidates, it was not so as regarded livings of a different description—of 30 l., 40 l., and 60 l. a-year, of which kind were many of those belonging to the Great Seal. Instead of such livings being sought for, it would be necessary for him, unless he had the means of applying to and relying upon the recommendations of others, to go about the country to seek for proper persons to put into them. It would, he need scarcely add, be impossible for any Lord Chancellor, with the many other duties he had to perform, to do that. Therefore, when he communicated upon this subject with a most reverend Prelate, he stated that it might appear as if it were a shrinking from a duty, the responsibility of which still attached to him, should he enter into such an arrangement, though, in fact, he proposed it, in order to enable him to discharge that duty in a faithful and efficient manner. It was solely upon such grounds that he had made the arrangement in question, and not with any political views, or with any motive of conferring an obligation on those right rev. Prelates, who rather obliged him by giving him the required assistance, than he conferred any obligation on them. His noble friend had somewhat irregularly introduced this subject, but he could not regret that, since it had given him an opportunity of explaining the real nature of an arrangement which had been hitherto very generally, and, he must add, very greatly misunderstood. The noble and learned Lord concluded by repeating his opinion as to the fitness of the reverend individual for the appointment to the parish from which the present petition emanated.
Lord Kingwas ready to give his noble and learned friend credit for great dis-
1140
cernment,—for great discernment in human nature, but not for great discernment in clerical nature. He would do his noble friend the justice to say, that the persons he had appointed to the livings in his gift had not been so promoted by him on account of a community of political feeling, for he believed, that in almost every instance, they were opposed to his noble friend in politics. His noble friend had, he was sure not in a bad spirit, alluded to the exactions of others in the West of England; that allusion fell harmless on him, for he could say, that he had never exacted that to which he was not fairly entitled. He complained of clerical, not lay exactions, for which value had generally been given, and to which, therefore, the owners were fairly entitled.
Lord Wynfordsaid, that if due investigation were made, it would be found that, so far from the clergy exacting more than their due, there was no description of property whatever upon which the claims of the holders were so mildly enforced. He knew the part of the country from which the petition came as well as the noble Lord who had presented it, and he could tell him that the landowners there were beginning to find out that a change of hands in the owners or collectors of tithes would be of no benefit to them. This persuasion was gaining ground throughout the country. He objected to the practice of the noble Lord in thus bringing discussions upon the characters of individuals who were not present to answer for themselves, and whose characters were valuable not only to themselves, but to the country. Never were the characters of the clergymen of the Established Church more valuable to their country than at the present moment, when there was a disposition abroad to make a run at the Church as undeserved as it was mischievous. He did not mean to say, that the noble Lord meant to do injury to the Church, but he certainly was adding to the spirit which was abroad by the frequent discussions he was in the habit of provoking in that House upon the characters of clergymen. He had intruded these few observations upon the House, because he found it impossible to sit still and hear unnoticed these attacks upon the characters of gentlemen who were not present to answer for themselves.
Petition laid on the Table.
Lord Kingwas glad to hear the noble and learned Lord pass an eulogium upon the character of the clergy of the Established Church. He only wished that their characters were as well appreciated by their parishioners, as by noble Lords in that House. He had to present another petition against tithes from the parish of Greystoke, Cumberland, and he would say, that greater injustice had never been committed by clergy or laity than had been committed by the incumbent of that parish in pursuing his demands for tithes upon the parishioners. The petitioners stated, that, for thirty years, they had been in a state of litigation with their pastor about tithes; that they had been dragged through all the Courts at Westminster, and had the same question tried in the Ecclesiastical Court at York, and also at Carlisle; that, in the year 1815, the Vice-Chancellor decided in favour of the modus set up by the petitioners, notwithstanding which there had been three trials since of the same question; that they had had the decisions of Sir John Leach, Lord Eldon, and Lord Lyndhurst in their favour, and yet another suit was now in progress. With regard to the observations made by the noble and learned Lord as to the present run against the Church, he would only take the liberty of remarking, that it was circumstances like these which occasioned that run.
Lord Ellenboroughthought that, before the noble Lord presented petitions which might involve the character of particular clergymen, he should give some notice to the parties concerned, in order that they might give a denial or explanation through the medium of some noble Lord.
The Bishop of Carlislebore testimony to the excellent character of the clergyman alluded to. That a new trial was allowed was an act not of the clergyman but of that Court.
Lord Kingsaid, there had already been three decisions in favour of the modus. He knew nothing personally of the clergyman in question, but it was to have been wished that the opinion expressed of him by the right rev. Bishop had been shared by the petitioners. The noble Lord also presented a petition against the Tithe system from Ashurst in Kent. He wished to observe, that it was never his intention to smuggle any petitions through the House. He had presented many petitions to the same effect
1142
last year, and then, as now, took occasion to do so when there was a full Bench to answer him. The object of the present petition was, that whatever measure of improvement with respect to tithes should be meted out to Ireland might also be extended to this country, when the conduct of the people under similar vexations, had been hitherto so peaceable and praiseworthy. In Kent, the taking of tithes in kind became a most oppressive burthen, and prevented the outlay of much capital, and the culture in hops of a great portion of land, since the tithe of hops would exceed the rent.
Lord Teynhamsupported the petition. He could fully and confidently confirm the statements in the petition, for the tithe on hops was most injurious in Kent, and greatly impeded the cultivation of the land. Taking tithes in kind too was a most grievous thing, for no man liked another to come upon his land.
Marquess Camdenwas well acquainted with the county of Kent, and could assure their Lordships that the conduct of the clergy in that county was most exemplary. He was quite sure that tithe was not more oppressive in Kent than elsewhere.
Petition laid on the Table.

THE SLAVE TRADE.
Lord Ellen-boroughwished to inquire of the noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government whether any instructions had yet been given to his Majesty's cruizers off Western Africa, to adopt those measures for the suppression of the Slave-trade which were mutually agreed upon in the treaty between this country and France, entered upon last year?
Earl Greysaid, that instructions had not yet been given, in consequence of the negotiation of a supplementary treaty, which he expected would shortly be ratified and laid on the Table of the House. On the arrival of the ratification, instructions would be given.
Lord Ellenboroughexpressed his surprise at the delay, as the treaty had been ratified full a year ago.
Earl Greyremarked, that the subsequent negotiations necessarily occasioned the delay.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, he was not quite sure whether he yet understood the noble Earl. After this supplemental treaty was ratified, were the instructions still to be matter of negotiation?
Earl Greyintimated that such would be the case, but said, he anticipated no difficulty in the way of an agreement on the instructions to be given.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, that their Lordships had been told the same thing more than a year ago, and yet the instructions were still negociating.
Earl Greyrepeated, that the delay must be ascribed to the necessity which was found to exist, of entering into a supplementary treaty.

STATE OF THE WEST INDIES.
Lord Colvillesaid, it was with much reluctance he rose to defer the Motion of which he had given notice for that evening. But he had that morning been informed by a committee of a most respectable body of Gentlemen, who took a strong interest in that matter, that the noble Viscount at the head of Colonial Affairs had requested an interview with them, for the purpose of laying before them a plan which he intended to propose on the part of Government for the settlement of this great question. As they, therefore, as well as himself, had no wish to embarrass his Majesty's Ministers, he was ready to consent to the postponement of his Motion, He had no object in view but to assist them in obtaining their end, which he believed was simply to elicit truth, and gain justice; and therefore, though he was fully prepared to go into his Motion, he readily assented to its postponement. There was no man among their Lordships who was less connected with West-India property, or more disinterested than himself. He did not doubt that he should have been able to have convinced their Lordships of the justice of his Motion; but the plan proposed by his Majesty's Ministers was entitled to the fullest consideration. The same reasons which induced him to postpone his Motion, prevented his fixing any day for its discussion, but he hoped the cause would not suffer by the delay.
Order discharged.