HL Deb 26 August 1833 vol 20 cc884-92

Viscount Melbourne moved the Order of the Day for their Lordships to go into a Committee on the Tithe Arrears (Ireland) Bill. Their Lordships had heard so much about Irish tithes in the course of the present Session, that he would not trouble them with many observations on the present occasion. He must, however, advert to a declaration of the noble Duke opposite, in which he had stated that the resistance to the payment of tithes in Ireland was the result of an organized conspiracy. Now, whether it was the result of an organized correspondence among the different classes of society in Ireland—which he should call a conspiracy—or whether it was the simultaneous result of the spontaneous feelings of the people in that country, he was not prepared to say. In either case the result was the same, though the criminality might be different. It became also the more dangerous on account of the minute subdivision of property in Ireland, which led to a multiplicity of claims for small sums due to the clergy in the first instance, and, where those claims were refused payment, to a multiplicity of suits to recover them in the second. It was in consequence of this subdivision of property, and of the difficulty of recovering the small sums which were due to the clergy for tithes, that the former measure of Government for the collection of tithes had failed. He had heard it stated that the measure had not failed, but that it was on the very point of succeeding, when Government ordered the operation of it to be stopped. He did not believe such to be the case; but even if it were, it would not alter the circumstances in which the clergy of the Established Church of Ireland were now placed, though it might afford ground of inculpation against the Government. It was to remedy those circumstances—it was to relieve the clergy of the Established Church of Ireland from the distress in which so many of them were now plunged, that he moved their Lordships to consent to the committal of this Bill. He would not delay them with any general remarks on the nature of tithes, but would proceed to describe to them the objects and details of this Bill as succinctly as the nature of it would allow. The noble Viscount proceeded to describe the terms upon which 1,000,000l. sterling was to be granted to the Irish clergy for arrears of tithes, and the provisions by which the repayment of that sum was to be secured to this country, and concluded by stating, that this Bill had been acceded to by the Representatives of the landlords of Ireland, who thought it for their interest to take upon themselves this burthen.

The Duke of Wellington

expressed his approbation of the measure. It was one of charity and benevolence, and so far as it proposed to relieve a very meritorious and distressed class of men, he would give it his support, but he thought many of the details were objectionable. He was opposed, for instance, to the condition on which the relief was granted. The Bill imposed upon the tithe-owner the condition of renouncing his property for 1829 and 1830, in order to obtain an advance of 75 per cent, on the same description of property for 1831, and 1832. Such a condition he thought their Lordships had no right to impose. With respect also to the clause which remitted 25 per cent, of the tithe to be collected for the years 1831 and 1832, this clause extended not only to the landlords, but to the occupiers of lands, and thus it would operate as a bonus for default in payment of tithes. He should not, however, at the present stage, move any Amendment.

Lord Plunkett

said, it was proposed to insert a clause in the Bill, to prevent the 25 per cent clause from operating as a bounty on default, as the noble Duke anticipated, when such default took place, the allowance of 25 per cent would not be made.

The Earl of Wicklow

had come down to the House with the intention of supporting the Bill, understanding that his so doing would not be inconsistent with the Motion which he had the honour of submitting to their Lordships, when the Resolutions on which this Bill was framed passed the other House of Parliament. As far as he understood the Bill, there was no security in it for repayment of the advance proposed to be made. His approbation was founded on this—that the sum to be given was to be considered as a grant, and that whatever shadow of security the Bill might profess to give, in reality it gave none. In considering it as a grant, however, he would not treat it either as a boon or a favour, but as a mere act of justice to the clerical and lay impropriators of tithes. The necessity which compelled the Government to adopt this measure was a just retribution; for he considered the course of policy pursued by the present Government as the sole cause of that necessity. Everybody knew that, from the passing of the Coercion Bill, there was a disposition on the part of the people of Ireland to return to the payment of tithes, and to a state of obedience to the law. This was not attributable to the Coercive powers of the Bill, but to the disposition of the people, of which disposition he could give the most incontestible proofs. But, at an unfortunate moment, a noble Lord highly connected with the Government, chose to put an extinguisher on the collection of tithes in that country. He knew why that noble Lord did so. It was because in the course of the debate on the Coercion Bill he pledged himself that it should not be applied to the collection of tithes in Ireland; and when, in consequence of the altered disposition of the people, after the passing of that Bill, tithes in Ireland became more easy of collection, the noble Lord seemed to fear, that by some misconstruction, he might be thought to have violated his pledge, and therefore he put a total stop to the collection of tithe arrears. The noble Earl then referred to a letter, written by Major Miller to a person who, having reason to apprehend violent resistance, had requested the assistance of the military and police in distraining for arrears of tithe, in which that gentleman stated he was prohibited by the Government from giving the aid either of the military or the police force. He (the Earl of Wicklow) wished to know what right the Government had to refuse the aid of the police? They were perhaps entitled to control the military; but the police were paid by the county, and their services ought to be available when required. He had already stated, that he should support the Bill as a grant, and as a grant alone; and believing it to be simply an act of retributive justice, and no favour to those whom it was intended to relieve. But, in thus consenting to pass this Bill into a law, he must observe, that it left entirely open the question as to what footing tithes should stand upon in future. Nor was there anything at all in this Bill to render it probable that a similar measure would not be required next Session. He had no doubt that similar distress would prevail—that similar resistance would take place—and that a similar necessity would occur. Indeed the whole proceeding was of a nature to encourage resistance, and to render it almost miraculous if the same system should not again be followed up. It might be said, that the time for compounding for tithes had been prolonged, but it should be remembered how few contracts had been entered into in consequence of that measure, and that under existing circumstances there was still less probability that such contracts would be made. At this late period of the Session, feeling as he did the necessity of some grant to the clergy, he should be exceedingly sorry to give any opposition to the Bill; he objected, however, to some of the details, and would bring forward his objections in Committee.

The Archbishop of Dublin

intended to detain their Lordships but a very short time, though, as he was the sole Representative of the Irish Church present, they would excuse his troubling them with a few words. He should not enter into the particulars of the Bill, because that would be best done in Committee, and because when he was examined before a Committee of their Lordships' House, the substance of the present Bill had then been suggested by him. This, however, he would say, that from all he could collect from the clergy and friends of the Church in Ireland, he had reason to believe, that some measure of this kind would now prove much more satisfactory to them than when he first proposed it; that was, if injudicious means were not used, and intemperate expressions were not resorted to, for the purpose of keeping up the alarm which prevailed in Ireland on this subject. He had consulted with many of the clergy when he first proposed this measure, but they generally treated it as one pregnant with difficulties, and seemed inclined to think that things would come right of themselves. He contended, however, that some measure of the kind was then necessary, and that the difficulties of the question would increase by delay. He was the last person in the world to cast reproach on the clergy or indeed on any person belonging to any political party. But if he were inclined to enter into the controversy, he might say, that when he first suggested this measure it was not supported. He would not, however, enter into any unpleasant retrospects, but he wished to impress on their Lordships and on the public the necessity of making the best of existing circumstances, and of taking the best precautions for the future, and more especially of not exposing the Church to unnecessary danger by holding out such language as had formerly been held out, and which had created great excitement and alarm. He trusted also he might be permitted to remark on the impropriety of indulging in prophecies which, as had already been the case, but too frequently led to their own fulfilment. Those who had professed themselves to be the friends of the Church had strengthened the agitators by the intemperate expressions in which they had indulged. They had repeatedly asserted, that it was the intention of his Majesty's Government to put down the Protestant Establishment in Ireland. He could assure their Lordships that the various prophecies which had been indulged in had tended in the greatest possible degree to bring about their own fulfilment. He could mention to their Lordships, one case, which was but a type of many others. The parishioners of a clergyman whose parish was so distracted by these various reports, and by the declarations that the Protestant religion was put an end to by the Government, that they really knew not what was or what was not the law; and it was not till after an application to him, and an assurance from him that Government had no intention of the kind, that they consented to pay their tithes. This would illustrate to their Lordships the importance of conducting their discussions with calmness and temperance, and of avoiding those rash prophecies which were calculated only to create alarm and excitement, and, in the result, to work their own fulfilment.

Earl Grey

had hoped, after the temperate speech of the noble Duke opposite, that there would have been no necessity for him to address their Lordships on this Bill. It was, however, impossible to pass over in silence what had fallen from the noble Earl. He agreed with the most reverend Prelate, that much mischief had arisen from the declaration of those who, doubtless, in the sincerity of their belief (though in that belief they did great injustice to his Majesty's Government), had represented his Majesty's Government as hostile to the Protestant Establishment. It had more than once fallen to his lot to disclaim any such hostility, and to state, that it was his most earnest wish and sincere endeavour to do every thing in his power to support its interests. If their Lordships looked candidly at the situation of his Majesty's Government, they must admit that it was one of considerable difficulty. The noble Earl had said that the difficulties of the Government were of their own making, but he would ask the noble Earl to point out any course that might have been pursued which would have been free from difficulty. The most reverend Prelate had said truly that those misrepresentations of the intentions of Government had tended materially to increase those difficulties. A new example of the danger to which the most reverend Prelate had alluded, was exhibited in the speech of the noble Earl, who alleged as his great inducement to support this Bill, that he considered it as a grant. It must have been known to the noble Earl, that it was not on this principle that the Bill was introduced into their Lordships' House. It must have been known to the noble Earl, that if it had been so introduced in another place, he believed that such an interpretation was put upon it by those with whom the noble Earl would not be well pleased to be considered as united in opinions—but to return, the noble Earl knew that if it had been so introduced in another place, it would never have reached their Lordships' House. He would tell the noble Earl what the principle of the Bill was. It was founded on the principle of relief to the Clergy. As the noble Duke had truly stated, it was founded on a charitable and benevolent intention, but in the full confidence that the people of England would not be called on to submit to a burthen which, under the circumstances, ought not to fall upon them. The noble Earl said, it was a just retribution, that a grant should be made to the Irish clergy, and that Englishmen should be called on to pay a sum which they never expected to be returned to them. But if the noble Earl looked to the provisions of the Bill, he would see that the return was provided for, though if the noble Earl thought proper to indulge in such language, it was not impossible that it might produce the effect which had been adverted to by the right reverend Prelate. What a justification would it not be for such conduct that it had been stated in Parliament, particularly in that House, that no such return was ever expected. He, therefore, felt it incumbent upon him to contradict the assertion of the effect of this measure, and to state most distinctly, that he thought full security was provided by this Bill for the repayment of the temporary relief which it afforded to the Clergy, and for securing the people of England from the imposition of a burthen which ought not in justice, to fall on them. The noble Earl had also stated, that after the passing of the Coercion Bill, there would have been no difficulty in collecting tithes, had not the Government put a stop to it. That certainly was not the case, for the Government, with all the power of military and police which it had at command, was able to collect but a very small proportion indeed of the arrears of tithe which were due to them. Certainly it was contemplated to afford relief to the Clergy by enabling them to collect their tithes, if upon experience it had been found that there were less objections to that proceeding than was actually the case. It was easy to say, that the tithes ought to have been levied, but he had shown that in practice, that was not the case. Scenes of outrage and violence had followed the attempt to collect tithes. That was particularly the case in Cork, and in other places, where the Magistrates had refused to act, and altogether a lamentable state of things was produced which nobody could say it was not the duty of the Government to put an end to. That was done from no desire to relax the authority of the law; and he could assure their Lordships, that the Government did not yield to the noble Earl opposite, or to any noble Lords in their desire and determination to support the authority of the law. The Government, however, felt called upon to see if other means of relief might not be afforded. Meeting the difficulties of the present case, and endeavouring to avoid such obstacles for the future, it was not for him to say that the Government had been successful in this endeavour, but he wished again to say that this was not a grant, which was not to be repaid, but a loan, otherwise it would throw a burthen on the people of England which they had no right to bear. He admitted that there were many difficulties in the matter; and if any amendments could be proposed calculated to make the measure more efficacious, as his noble friend had signified his intention to propose one, the noble Lord would find that the Government was ready to take them into its most favourable consideration. With reference to the measure of last year, which the noble Earl had alluded to, it was not yet sufficiently understood, nor were its advantages sufficiently appreciated. It certainly was intended that that measure should be accompanied by a measure for a commutation of tithes. That was recommended by the Committee; and their Lordships might rest assured that this object was not lost sight of. He hoped it might be accomplished in another Session; and then, to use a word which had been much misunderstood, but which the noble Earl knew was not the word of the Government—he did hope that at length tithes might be extinguished; not with any diminution of the rights of the Clergy, but by a commutation which would enable them to exercise those rights in a less obnoxious manner than at present, and avoid all the evils of the present system. Those evils were not of modern origin. Seventy years ago the Parliament of Ireland had passed a law to relieve the clergy, in consequence of the non-payment of tithes. Then there were scenes of violence and bloodshed, such as had lately been complained of; and certainly he had to regret that no measures had been taken since that period to put this matter on a footing more congenial to the feelings of the people. He would not enter into any present circumstances; he would only say that, after what had occurred of late years, it was not to be wondered at that the difficulties of the subject were now very great. He trusted, however, that they would now surmount some of those difficulties by agreeing to the present measure, laying a foundation of a better state of things, and avoiding the necessity for ever again having recourse to a similar measure. He acknowledged that there were objections to the measure, some of which might be obviated in Committee; and he trusted that their Lordships would then suffer the Bill to go into a Committee, when noble Lords would have an opportunity of offering any Amendment which would conduce to remove those objections.

Their Lordships resolved themselves into a Committee on the Bill.

The Clauses were agreed to, and the House resumed. Report to be received.