Lords Sitting of 20 August 1833

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a third time:—Burgh Magistrates; Grand Juries (Ireland); City of London Seavage and Package; Uniformity of Process; Customs' Acts' Repeal;
Petitions presented. By the Duke of WELLINGTON, the Operatives of Rochdale, against the Factories' Regulation Bill.

MINISTERIAL PLAN FOR THE ABOLITION OF SLAVERY.
The Earl of Ripon The Earl of Ripon moved the third reading of this Bill.
Lord Wynfordwould not after the long discussions which had already taken place, oppose the third reading of it. He gave notice, however, that he would early in the next Session move for leave to bring in a
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Bill to prevent the introduction into his country of anything the produce of slave labour. His object was to completely prevent us from being contaminated with slavery.
Bill read a third time and passed.

ROMAN CATHOLIC MARRIAGES.
Marquess of Clanricarde Marquess of Clanricarde moved the second reading of the Roman Catholic Marriages Bill.
Lord Wynfordopposed the Motion. It would get rid at once, and without due consideration of all the marriage laws in Ireland. He should certainly approve of the introduction next Session of a measure to amend those laws. The present Bill did not make irregular marriages void, but, on the contrary, rendered them valid, and at the same time took away the penalties attached to those who performed them. The Bill in short, got rid of the whole Marriage Law of England at one single stroke; and it was in every respect a Bill which ought not to be passed at so late a period of the Session. He should move, that it be read this day six months.
Lord Plunkettcontended, that the noble Lord who had just sat down was altogether in error in the view he had taken of the Bill. The common law of Ireland was the common law of Scotland at present, and what the common law of England had formerly been. The present Bill repealed only four Statutes, the 6th of Anne, by which Catholic Priests celebrating marriages with Protestants were liable to be transported; the 12th George 1st, by which for the same offence, they were liable to the punishment of death; the 19th George 2nd, by which a penalty of 500 l. was attached to the offence; and lastly, the Act 33 George 3rd, which in fact was the first Act which restricted the penal severities against Irish Roman Catholics.
The Bishop of Herefordmeant to support the Bill to which he thought no reasonable ground of objection could be offered. The only object the measure had in view was the repeal of the special penal Acts to which clergymen of the Roman Catholic faith were liable, without in any wise rendering marriages celebrated by them more legal than they were at present. He had an anxious desire that a measure to enable Dissenters of all descriptions to be married within their own congregations should be introduced, and Parliament promising such a measure should have his cordial support. Laying aside all considerations of the pro-

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priety of such an enactment, on the ground of justice to the vast body of Dissenters, he assured their Lordships, it would be particularly agreeable to the general body of the clergy of the Established Church. The Protestant clergy felt it a most irksome and unpleasant duty to be obliged to perform the marriage ceremony for persons many of whom, in their opinion, were guilty of blaspheming that religion of which they were ministers, and he would take upon himself to assure the House they would willingly give up the fees they were in the habit of receiving to be exonerated from that which they considered a profanation of their Church.
The Duke of Wellingtonthought, that so far as the Bill repealed certain penal statutes in force against the Catholic clergy, it was a very desirable measure, but he was of opinion that this could not be safely passed unless accompanied with specific arrangements stating in what manner and under what circumstances marriages should henceforth be performed. He thought the details of the Bill should be so amended in Committee that it should do no more than simply remove the penalty of death as against the clergy, leaving the general question of the celebration of marriage for further consideration next Session, when there would be ample means to draw up a code of laws for its regulation.
The Earl of Wicklowdid not think any reasonable objection could be offered to the principle of the Bill, which was, that the penal statutes against marriage performed by Catholic clergymen should be repealed which, in his opinion, was very desirable. His principal objection to the Bill was, that by repealing so many of the laws on the subject of marriage it would, unless an explicit code of regulations was drawn up, be impossible to know precisely in what state the general law on the subject was left. The Bill was also objectionable in not providing a prohibition against a clergyman marrying two Protestants. Where one of the parties was a Catholic and the other a Protestant he had no objection to their being married by a Catholic clergyman; but he confessed he saw no necessity for altering the existing law in cases where both parties were of the Protestant religion. Then, with respect to marriages celebrated by degraded clergymen, according to the present Bill they were to be considered perfectly good marriages, and the penalties against the party celebrating it were to be at an end. That part of the Bill he thought
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particularly objectionable, and should it go into Committee, which he hoped it would, he would use his best endeavours to have that, as well as others of its details, amended.
Amendment negatived; and Bill read a second time.

CHINA TRADE.
Order of the Day for the Committee on the China Trade Bill having been read,
Lord Aucklandstated the object of the Bill was to provide a sbstitute for the existing British Factory at Canton, by which the trade with China had hitherto, under the auspices of the East India-Company, been managed. It proposed, in the first place, the appointment of three superintendents, to reside at Canton, to whom the entire regulation of the Canton trade should be intrusted, with power to appoint such officers as they might require to assist them in the execution of their duty, and to grant such officers whatever amount of salary they might deem necessary. It was likewise provided, that his Majesty should be empowered by an Order in Council, to give to the superintendents so appointed entire power over the trade and commerce to be carried on by his subjects with any part of the Chinese dominions, and in furtherance and execution of such power to erect any number of Courts of Justice, and to frame such rules and regulations for its observance as they might deem requisite. The powers which the Bill proposed to intrust to the Crown were undoubtedly of a most extensive character, but they were not without precedent; and, taking into consideration all the circumstances of the case, he contended they were quite justifiable. The principal objection which he understood as likely to be urged to the Bill related to the mode in which it was proposed the establishment should be paid and supported. The plan which the Bill proposed was certainly not without precedent; but, although he would contend there was nothing in the manner of the clause which justified the objection expressed to it, to avoid all possible opposition he had come to the determination of preparing an amendment which he trusted would prove satisfactory. His proposition was, in lieu of the charges mentioned in the Bill as it stood, to levy an amount of duty not exceeding 1l. ad valorem duty on the amount of goods, whether imports or exports, and a charge not exceeding 5s. per ton on the amount of tonnage; by which means it was estimated a fund amply sufficient to defray the expense

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of the proposed establishment would be obtained. A further objection to the Bill related to the proposed establishment of resident superintendents at Canton, without the authority or concurrence of the Chinese government. In the first place he begged to remind the House that such an interference on the part of Great Britain towards a foreign state was not new; and in the second place, he was happy in being able to state that, from all the evidence which had been collected on the subject, there was every reason to expect the establishment of a well constituted authority to take the place of the Company's Factory in the regulation of the trade would be well received by the Hong merchants, and through their influence by the Chinese government. The noble Lord concluded by moving, that the House resolve itself into a Committee.
Viscount Strathallanobjected to the exclusion of the East-India Company from a participation in the China trade, so useful to them for the purpose of remittance. Though he had no doubt of the friendly disposition of some of the noble Mandarins of China, yet he was confident that whilst the government there existed in its present shape, it would never suffer the establishment of Superintendents or consuls; and he thought the same object could be obtained by vesting additional powers in the supercargoes, and binding the owners of vessels to obey the regulations that might be framed, under certain penalties. He objected, moreover, to the great expense of these establishments. If, according to the Bill, one per cent was levied on exports and imports, the sum raised would amount to 80,000 l. per annum. The Courts proposed to be established by the Bill were also very objectionable, and established a very dangerous precedent. Indeed, the whole Bill was one of a Theoretic nature, and he feared that soon we should have little or no tea at all. The East-India Company had tea for two years' consumption in hand, therefore for two or three years the evil would not be felt; but after that time, he thought the revenue would suffer a serious defalcation.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, there was not a single detail, even as the Bill then stood, of which he could approve. In the first place, the Bill did a great deal more than give his Majesty a power to appoint three superintendents to reside entirely at Canton for the regulation of the trade, inasmuch as, although the noble Lord opposite had certainly abstained from so stating it, the
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words of the clause gave his Majesty power to appoint three or more superintendents, and further enabled him to place the superintendents so appointed either at Canton, where a British trade was already established, or elsewhere, where, as yet, no trade was established. The Bill then proceeded to give the Crown a power of allotting to the superintendents and to any officers they appointed any amount of salary they might choose to demand. Now, that he looked upon as a monstrous power, and one which Parliament should be very cautious how they intrusted. Much had been said of the vast degree of patronage heretofore possessed by the East-India Company in China; but he had no hesitation in saying the present Bill gave to the King's Government for the time being the power of creating quite as much if not more, of that power than the Company ever possessed. Then, with respect to the clause which provided for the expenses of the proposed establishment, he confessed that his objections had not been at all removed by the alteration proposed by the noble Lord. At the lowest calculation the annual amount of the duties proposed to be levied would be 87,500 l., all of which it was contemplated should be divided among the three or four persons who were to exercise the consular powers of Great Britain at Canton. Surely such a sum could not be necessary for that purpose. Why, it was within 13,000 l. of the whole amount of the estimates for consular charges during the last year. If the system of defraying consular charges by fees was under any circumstances to be defended, it unquestionably was most inapplicable at the present moment to the trade with China. The charge of 1l. per cent ad valorem on goods, whether exported or imported, was fully equal to a charge of 2l. per cent on the imports; and when he assured their Lordships, that the proposal of the noble Lord would take off at least 20 l. per cent on the possible profits of the persons engaged in trade, he thought he was fully justified in asserting that, in its present condition the China trade could not bear the additional pressure this Bill would impose. He objected to the establishment of a Court of Justice at Canton, as wholly inapplicable to the circumstances of the place where it was to be established. Let the British Legislature arm their Commissioners with what powers for the execution of justice they might, they, would be wholly inoperative in a foreign land, even to compel witnesses to attend. The

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Bill proposed, that the superintendents should not be permitted to traffic for either their own benefit or for the benefit of any other person. But he confessed he could not see how it would be possible to prevent them from doing so. He was unwilling to allude to a very painful and very disgusting case of recent occurrence, but that case proved how prone human nature was to disregard principles of honour, and even the approbation of friends, when personal aggrandizement came into question. With such a case before them, he asked, what security was there that the provision against trafficking by superintendents could be enforced? He objected also to the Bill that there was a want in it of any provision for bringing the sums to be levied on the commerce, as well as the application of them before Parliament. Me had no objection to the Bill going into Committee, but he felt bound to assert it was a measure which never ought to have been sent up to that House from the House of Commons.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that the attempt to establish Superintendents or Consuls in China would fall. The Company's Supercargoes were only permitted to reside there by a Treaty, and those only for about three or four months, and for the remainder of the year they were compelled to resort to Macao, in the Portuguese territory. There was, however, no treaty at all between China and this Government.
Lord Aucklandsaid, it was unfair to assume that because Government was authorised to collect a duty not exceeding one per cent, that therefore they would go to the full extent unless it were required; but it was exceedingly desirable, when it was proposed to make a permanent establishment, that the means should not be too limited. The noble Baron was mistaken in the amount that would be raised, as some of the vessels would evade paying the duty by not entering the port of Canton. As to the Courts of Justice they would not be ordinarily resorted to, and the most effective power was that of refusing permission to vessels to unload until they had conformed to regulations. The establishment certainly was expensive, and the expense might after a few years be reduced; but, considering what a princely establishment was kept up by the Company, it would not be advisable to make too sudden a change. As to the Superintendents being permitted to act as agents, it would derogate from their authority in the eyes of the Chinese.
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Their Lordships then went into Committee, and the Bill with its several amendments was agreed to.
House resumed.