Lords Sitting of 30 April 1833

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Lord SUFFIELD, from Liverpool, for the Abolition of Flogging.—By the Earl of ROSEBERY, from three Places, against the Existing System of Church Patronage in Scotland.—By the Marquess of DOWNSHIRE, the Bishop of BRISTOL, and Lords BEXLET and CARBERY, from several Places, for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.—By the Earls of ROSEBERY, RADNOR, UXBRIDGE, and CAWDOR, and Lords CARBERY, DE DUNSTANVILLE, BEXLEY, and SUFFIELD, from a great Number of Places,—for the Abolition of Slavery.

LABOUR RATE.
The Earl of Winchilseabegged to ask his noble friend when it was his intention to move the Second Reading of the Labour Rate Bill? In putting that question he wished to point out, that as regarded the proportion of Poor-rates which entitled parishes to bring themselves within the operation of the Act of last Session, that Act was defective. He could state, having been engaged in two counties in carrying the measure of last Session into effect, that several parishes were anxious to avail themselves of the benefit of the Act; but on account of the Poor-rates in those parishes being below the proportionate sum specified in the Act, they could not. In some instances, parishes had actually thrown persons on the Poor-rates for the purpose of bringing the parishes under the operation of the Act, by raising the rate, when these persons ought to have been supported by payments out of the Highway-rate. At the same time the Act had had a most beneficial effect. It had checked the demoralizing system of persons throwing themselves upon the Poor-rates for relief, and been productive of improved feelings in the minds of the labourers. It had also given great satisfaction to a large body of people wherever the plan had been carried into operation. In looking to the Amendment proposed by his noble friend, he observed that the surplus money was to be paid over into the hands of the overseers, to be applied to the general use of the poor; but if he might take the liberty, he would suggest to his noble friend that the money raised should be kept distinct from any assessment for the relief of the poor; and the surplus should be available for the relief of unemployed labourers only.
Lord Suffieldcould confirm the statement of the noble Earl, that the inconvenience in consequence of the rate entitling parishes to take advantage of this Act being fixed too high, was very great. Complaints had been made to him by
752
several parishes in the county with which he was connected on this subject; and he had been desired, when the proper time should arrive, to propose an Amendment in that part of the Bill. As regarded the measure itself, there was no doubt but that it had been beneficial.
The Duke of Richmondhad at the request of a right Reverend Prelate (the Bishop of London) deferred the Second Reading of this Bill until the Report of the Poor Laws Commission should be received. That Report would probably be made in the course of a fortnight or three weeks. He assured his noble friend that he was very anxious that the measure should be as effective as possible. He must, however, object to the Bill being called a "Labour-Rate Bill;" for, in fact, there was not one word in it which could justify such a designation.

CORN LAWS.
Earl Fitzwilliamrose to bring forward his Resolutions relating to the Corn Laws, of which he had given notice before the Easter Recess. When he again mentioned the subject last week, he informed their Lordships that it was his intention to move his Resolutions pro formâ, and request that they should be printed, and the discussion upon them taken on a future occasion. He recollected on that occasion that their Lordships had acquiesced in this arrangement. If he had understood rightly that such was the wish of the House, he should move that the Resolutions be read, laid upon the Table, and printed, and the discussion be postponed until Tuesday next. He said, when he mentioned this subject last week, that it was not his intention to make a speech upon the present occasion, and he meant to adhere to what he had stated; he should, therefore, confine himself to stating, not any argument in support of the Resolutions, but merely the object of the Resolutions which he should have the honour of submitting. The first Resolution which he should propose would have reference to the price of corn since 1828. The second Resolution which he should propose would refer to the price of corn in those countries of the world which exported corn. The third Resolution referred to those countries which, like this country, were also importers of corn. The fourth Resolution which he should submit would relate to the total quantity of corn which had been imported into this coun-

753
try under the Act which now regulated the trade in corn, stating the rates of duty. The fifth Resolution would state similar facts in a somewhat different shape, having reference to the different rates of duty at which certain proportions of the totals had been produced. The sixth Resolution would state the annual average import, and the annual average revenue thereupon; and the subsequent Resolutions would then state the conclusions which he had come to, and which he hoped that their Lordships would also come to at no very distant day. He would, in the first place, beg leave to read the following Resolutions:—
1. Resolved.—That it appears to this House that the weekly average price of wheat, as fixed subsequent to the passing of the 9th George 4th, c. 60, was, on the following days, viz.—

per quarter.

per quarter.

s.

d.

s.

d.

1828.—

July 11

55

7

1831.—

Jan. 7

68

3

Oct. 3

65

0

April 1

72

4

1829.—

Jan. 2

75

11

July 1

66

7

April 3

70

3

Oct. 7

61

0

July 3

68

2

1832.—

Jan. 6

59

1

Oct. 2

60

0

April 6

59

6

1830.—

Jan. 1

55

5

July 6

63

2

April 2

65

1

Oct. 5

54

7

July 2

68

6

1833.—

Jan. 4

52

6

Oct. 1

62

3

April 5

53

10

And that, on the 19th of September, 1828, the average was fixed at 58 s. 6d.; and again, on the 24th of October, 1828, at 76 s.; that, on the 5th of June, 1829, it was fixed at 71 s. 5d.; and again, on the 30th of October, 1829, at 55 s. 4d.; that, on the 6th of August 1830, it was fixed at 74 s. 11 d.; and on the 17th of September 1830, at 60 s. 2d; and, further, that the highest average under the provisions of the said Act was 76 s. 7d., as fixed on the 14th of November 1828; and that the lowest average was 51 s. 3d., as fixed on the 19th of October, 1832.
2. That it further appears to this House, from the returns of his Majesty's Consuls abroad, that the mean prices of wheat, at the following times and places:

Dantzic.

Hamburgh.

Leghorn.

Philadelphia.

s.

d.

s.

d.

s.

d.

s.

d.

July,

1828

24

3

23

0

39

7

29

9

Oct.,

1828

56

6

41

8

44

9

37

2

Jan.,

1829

59

2

49

7

61

0

53

0

Apr.,

1829

43

2

46

11

52

4

51

0

July,

1829

36

9

36

11

47

10

42

6

Oct.,

1829

38

1

34

6

38

7

35

0

Jan.

1830

29

9

31

3

35

11

36

0

Apr.,

1830

33

9

31

0

39

7

July,

1830

43

3

35

2

36

4

34

9

Oct.,

1830

39

10

38

7

41

5

33

10

Jan.

1831

47

5

46

9

47

4

38

11

Apr.,

1831

48

7

49

0

43

1

47

3

July,

1831

45

7

37

6

48

2

34

0

Oct.,

1831

41

1

45

0

45

3

35

8

Jan.

1832

42

4

37

10

41

9

35

3

Apr.

1832

38

3

37

10

43

8

33

4

July,

1832

42

6

39

3

41

2

40

10

Oct.,

1831

30

7

28

4

39

5

36

7

Dec.,

1832

29

0

29

3

41

0

38

9

3. That it further appears to this House, from the returns of his Majesty' Consuls abroad, that the mean prices of wheat at the following times and places were—

—

Amsterdam

Rotterdam.

Antwerp.

Havre.

Marseilles.

s.

d.

s.

d.

s.

d.

s.

d.

s.

d.

July, 1828

30

9

33

4

34

6

50

3

52

0

October, 1828

41

1

54

0

47

10

56

10

60

2

January, 1829

55

0

58

10

58

0

63

9

April, 1829

45

8

50

5

55

8

61

10

59

6

July, 1829

45

11

48

11

52

1

60

6

56

11

Sept. or Oct., 1829

43

2

41

9

51

1

51

3

58

6

January, 1830

41

1

44

0

57

10

April, 1830

36

0

36

8

40

0

45

8

61

5

July, 1830

41

10

43

2

43

10

47

1

58

7

October, 1830

46

9

48

0

51

5

53

0

59

10

January, 1831

41

1

54

5

47

5

52

11

April, 1831

47

3

57

9

52

9

49

0

53

3

July, 1831

41

10

51

4

55

2

50

3

51

7

October, 1831

43

2

50

6

57

0

54

6

58

7

January, 1832

43

5

48

0

49

0

60

6

April, 1832

38

3

41

4

47

11

52

1

64

3

July, 1832

44

8

41

6

50

6

52

1

October, 1882

39

9

37

3

43

4

51

6

56

10

December, 1832

38

11

40

4

46

6

48

6

57

6

4. That it further appears to this House, that the total quantity of foreign wheat entered for home consumption under the provisions of the 9th George 4th, cap. 60, to the 5th of April, 1833, has been 4,795,746 quarters and one bushel; and that the total amount of duty paid thereon has been 1,604,190 l. 10 s. 10 d., and that the average rate of such duty is 6s. 8¾d. per quarter or thereabouts. That, of the aforesaid total quantities, were imported—

Qrs.

Bush.

Per Qr.

£.

s.

d.

In 1829

1,260,633

1,

at an average rate of duty of

9

4

1830

1,494,381

7,

—

—

—

6

7

1831

1,088,797

3,

—

—

—

4

9

1832

162,607

7,

—

—

—

1

3

9

5. That of the total quantity of 4,795,744 quarters, 1 bushel, so entered for home consumption, under the provision of the 9th George 4th, cap. 60, there were admitted—

Qrs.

Bush.

s.

d.

1,571,311

5

at a duty of

1

0

per quarter

1,248,687

2

at a duty of

2

8

per quarter

564,437

0

at a duty of

6

8

per quarter

508,217

7

at a duty of

10

8

per quarter

viz.

3,892,653

6

at a duty of

10

8

per quarter, or under.

903,092

3

at a duty of

13

8

per quarter, or upwd.

6. That it therefore appears the supply of foreign wheat afforded to the people of Great Britain, under the provisions of 9th George 4th, cap. 60, has been at the rate of 1,008,860 quarters per annum, or thereabouts; and that the revenue derived therefrom has been at the rate of 337,479 l. per annum, or thereabouts.
7. That nothing is more injurious to those classes of the community, which are engaged in the cultivation of the soil, than great and rapid fluctuations in the value of their commodities.
8. That such fluctuations cannot altogether be prevented in the price of an article whose production is necessarily affected by the variations of the seasons; but that it does not appear to that House, that the existing regulations for the trade in foreign corn have succeeded

755
in diminishing those fluctuations; but on the contrary, they have a tendency to aggravate them, by placing occasional and unnecessary obstacles in the way of a free trade in corn with foreign countries.
9. That any disparity between the price of provisions in one country and another has a tendency to give comparative encouragement to the industry of that country in which the subsistence of man is obtained at the lower rate, and to impose difficulties upon that of the country in which it is obtained at the higher rate.
10. That the price of wheat in Great Britain stands generally at a higher level than in the other countries of Europe, whose inhabitants are engaged in similar pursuits with those of the British empire.
11. That such higher price is in a great measure to be ascribed to the laws which regulate the trade in foreign corn.
12. That the varying scale of duties imposed by the said laws operates frequently as a prohibition upon the import of foreign grain, and consequently upon the export of British commodities.
13. That, therefore, the manifest effects of the Corn Laws are to leave the agricultural interest exposed to all the difficulties which arise from frequent and sudden fluctuations in price—to discourage the export, and consequently production of British commodities—to increase the cost of cultivating the soil and of producing the manufactures of the United Kingdom—to render the industry of the nation less capable of competing with that of other nations—and to make the people less competent to support the several burthens which the various exigences of the State have imposed upon them.
14. That, therefore, it is expedient to devise the said laws and to place them upon a footing more consistent with justice, and more conducive to the welfare of the most important interests of the country.
Having thus put their Lordships in possession of his intentions, he would follow that course which would be most convenient to their Lordships.
The Earl of Shaftesburysuggested, that the noble Earl should move that the Resolutions be printed and taken into consideration on a future day.
Earl Greyalso apprehended, that the course which his noble friend should take would be to submit the Resolutions now to the House, and move that the Debate upon them be hereafter taken. Having said this, he must, however, express his deep regret, that his noble friend should have thought it necessary at this time to bring under consideration a subject of this nature, for one of the greatest evils to which the corn trade was exposed was that of being
756
liable to perpetual change. That trade could not be left too much undisturbed by the Legislature. More than this he would not state on the present occasion. He apprehended the course for his noble friend to take was this, that he would move the Resolutions pro formâ; that the Debate be then adjourned, the Resolutions printed, and the Debate be resumed at a future period. Tuesday next had been named by his noble friend, but upon the mere reading of the Resolutions it was obvious, from the variety of statements in them, the returns, and calculations given, that they involved results of the utmost importance, not only as to the agricultural interests, but the general interests of the community; and therefore it would be necessary to examine into the data and principles upon which these Resolutions were founded. He would submit to his noble friend whether it would not be more convenient and more advantageous to postpone the consideration of this important question to a later period than Tuesday next, especially as it was understood it would not be convenient for several noble Lords to be present on that day. He would suggest, that this day fortnight should be taken, if his noble friend did not object to that, or to whatever time was most convenient for their Lordships.
Earl Fitzwilliamwas exceedingly desirous of affording every accommodation to the House which lay in his power, and he would, therefore, name that day fortnight for resuming the Debate.
The Motion agreed to; Resolutions were ordered to be printed, and taken into further consideration that day fortnight.

LAW COMMISSIONS.
The Lord Chancellar The Lord Chancellar moved for a copy of the fourth Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the state of the Common Law. He wished to postpone the Local Courts Bill, which was waiting for a Second Reading, until this Report, which was very important, was laid before their Lordships. In the Bill, as it originally stood, he had extended the jurisdiction of those Courts to the recovery of legacies of limited amount. That provision was now, however, omitted, because he was unwilling to embarrass the measure unnecessarily. He still thought such a provision was necessary, and he might hereafter attend to the subject, but he was persuaded that the Local Courts Bill would be more accept-

757
able without than with a provision for that purpose.
Motion agreed to.
The Lord Chancelloralso moved for a copy of the third and fourth Reports of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the law of Real Property. In calling for these Reports, he thought that he should be doing the greatest injustice to the indefatigable assiduity and the sound learning; which these Commissioners had displayed in the performance of their duty, if he did not state to their Lordships the unanimous opinion of the members of the legal profession in all its branches with respect to them; which opinion was, that no men ever deserved better of the public by their services than those Commissioners did. The first and second Reports had given the utmost satisfaction, and Parliament had already manifested its sense of their excellence, for some of the suggestions contained in those Reports had been acted on, and the present law of the land had been founded on them. He thought it right to add, that for the last year these gentlemen had received no species of remuneration for their services. In the first year a sum was given to them wholly disproportioned to their labours; but these gentlemen, from what he must call a most mistaken and misplaced delicacy, had last year refused to receive any remuneration. Now, every hour which was taken from their professional business and given to the public was actually so much money lost to them. He hoped that their delicacy would not be allowed to inflict an injustice on themselves.
Motion agreed to.