Lords Sitting of 2 March 1832

MINUTES.
Bill. Read a second time; Baking (Ireland.) Returns ordered. On the Motion of Lord AUCKLAND, an Account of the quantity of Gloves, and of Kid and Lamb Skins Imported, of the quantities used for Home Consumption, and the quantities re-exported, from the year 1820 up to the year 1832.
Petitions presented. By Viscount STRANGFORD, from the Glove Manufacturers of Yeovil, against the Importation of Foreign Gloves, and by Lord TEYNHAM, from Maidstone, to limit the Hours of Working of Children Employed in Factories.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND.
The Marquis of Londonderry: my Lords I was not in the House when the Lord Chancellor of Ireland moved for returns of the emoluments of his Secretary,

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and of those of two noble and learned Lords who preceded him in that distinguished situation. I did not hear the observations with which I suppose he accompanied that Motion, but I presume the noble and learned Lord originated it with a view of giving him the opportunity to purge himself from the imputations which are laid at his door relative to the large emoluments he derives from his position, both for himself and the various members of his family. My Lords I entertain no personal hostility to the noble and learned Lord, and I put the questions I am about to do in a spirit of candour and of fairness; but, as I was told in a former Session, when I spoke of the large amount of the Lord Chancellor's emoluments, that I was mistaken, I wish now to state, that my assertions are confirmed by several newspaper publications in Ireland; and I presume that those statements are true; for, if they were not, surely the noble and learned Lord would have, ere this, attacked the editors of those papers for disseminating such false and scandalous libels. I have heard of nothing of the kind, though I hope there is no truth in the statement, that the noble Lord and his family possess twenty- two places, the annual salaries of which amount to 36,000 l. I think however, as the noble and learned Lord forms part of an Administration which gives out that it is so desirous to promote economy, and to diminish the burthens of the people, that he might, for his credit and that of the Government with which he his connected, have taken some pains to show that those charges are ill-founded, or he might at least have moved, in addition to the return of his Secretary's salary, for a return of the offices and incomes derived by the Plunkett family under him. Matters of so grave a nature should not be allowed to remain uncontradicted in the public newspapers; and it is proper, if the noble and learned Lord does not think it prudent to prosecute the papers for libel —as I must take for granted that those charges are scandalous and false—that we should get information here to satisfy your Lordships and the country on the subject. My Lords, I will fairly tell the noble and learned Lord, that I do not approve of his conduct in Ireland, and I am inclined to agree in what Mr. O'Connell has said, "that there was not a more pernicious legislator for Ireland, or more venal politician, than Lord Plunkett," With regard
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to the latter charge, I know nothing; but so far as to his being a pernicious legislator, I believe there never was a person whose counsels were more likely to produce the most deplorable consequences to his country. I am sorry to observe the nature of the advice which the noble and learned Lord gives to his Majesty; and I regret to find him, on a late occasion, suggesting answers, on the part of the Crown, to a petition from a very considerable body of persons, which must be prejudicial to the public good. I regret to find him, in another instance, calling the 250,000 subscribers to a petition to your Lordships a senseless body. Indeed I am of opinion that the policy pursued by the noble and learned Lord in Ireland is only calculated to sow dissension.
The Earl of Radnor: I beg leave to speak to order, and I ask the noble Marquis if he intends to conclude with a motion?
The Marquis of Londonderry: I am going to present a petition. My Lords, I repeat that the conduct of the noble and learned Lord is likely to lead to the most fatal consequences in Ireland. I do not speak in my own regard, though he and the Administration of which he is a part have endeavoured, as far as in their power lay, to deprive me of the affections of the people with whom I am by natural ties and situation connected. I can, however, tell the noble and learned Lord that he has failed in that respect, and that I still preserve the affections of my friends in Ireland, and the representation of their feelings and opinions is, on all occasions, transmitted to me. I am, my Lords, entitled to speak with authority on the subject, and I tell your Lordships, in the presence of the noble and learned Lord, that the conduct of his Majesty's Government in Ireland is fast carrying that country to destruction. I repeat, that I had not the opportunity of hearing the noble and learned Lord when he moved for the returns, and I now ask him, whether he will add to his notice the returns I speak of? or if he does not, I will submit a motion myself for the purpose. I have now, my Lords, to present a petition on another subject—[laughter and "hear."] That laugh, and those cries of "hear," are not very creditable to those who indulge in them. I have ventured to ask a question—I rose mainly for that purpose, and I cannot conceive that a jeer, or a taunt, or a cry of "hear," is an answer;

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and I shall, therefore, be obliged to noble Lord to find me a better reply.
The Earl of Radnor: I beg leave, my Lords, to rise to order. The noble Marquis has spoken at some length, under the pretence of presenting a petition. When he was called to order in the first instance, he declared that he had a petition to lay on the Table, and I confess, for one, that I looked to it with some degree of interest, for I could not well understand of what nature that petition could be which formed the ground-work of the observations the noble Marquis indulged in. The noble Marquis, concluding without any explanation, I think, my Lords, there is something like offence to the House in all this.
The Marquis of Londonderry: I conceive, my Lords, that the noble Earl says, I am in error; my conduct is perfectly in accordance with the practice of the House, and I recollect many instances where noble Lords at both sides have pursued exactly the same course which I have done, and have put questions, without making any motion, or presenting a petition.
The Earl of Radnor: I apprehend, my Lords, that the asking of questions to the extent that the practice has prevailed among us is altogether irregular, and it is only tolerated by the House for the purposes of convenience; but I submit to your Lordships that the course adopted by the noble Marquis is neither regular nor convenient, and I do not think it should be passed over without remark. If the noble Marquis requires the information he has asked for, he can obtain it by making a motion to that effect.
The Marquis of Londonderry: My Lords, it may happen unfortunately that I may have fallen into error. If the House think, instead of making these observations on the presentation of a petition, I should have submitted a notice of motion, I am ready to do so.
Lord Plunkett: My Lords, I rise to order. The noble Marquis said, he had a petition to present; as soon as he has done so, I will make a reply to the charges which he has so unjustly brought against me. But I call on the noble Marquis to present the petition.
The Marquis of Londonderry: I decline doing so at present—I shall present it on another day.
Lord Plunkett: then my Lords, I will take the liberty of submitting to your Lordships a resolution—of censure upon the
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noble Lord. The noble Marquis distinctly stated, in vindication of his irregular remarks, that he had risen to present a petition, and, having made that declaration, and been permitted, on the faith of it, to continue his attack on me, the noble Marquis is not at liberty to withdraw his petition. I will take the sense of the House on the question.
Lord Ellenborough: I was not present at the commencement of this conversation, but I must be permitted to say, that I think it would be wholly inconsistent with the usual practice of your Lordships' House to agree to the Resolution which the noble and learned Lord states it is his intention to propose. It is true, that the noble Marquis stated, that it was his intention to conclude his observations by the presenting of a petition, and, undoubtedly the House had a right to expect that he should have done so; but the noble Marquis is not obliged by the strict rules of order to do so; and I think the invariable practice of your Lordships in other matters will bear me out in what I say. Your Lordships are aware that any noble Lord who holds two proxies may give one to the affirmative side of a question, and the other, immediately after, to the negative. He may devote those votes to the contents and the not-contents on any division. I do not argue for the justice or propriety of this rule, but I collect from it that your Lordships retain the right in your own hands, at the last moment, of changing your intentions. I candidly admit I state an extreme case, but still it is your Lordships' constant rule, and, I conceive that it bears out the noble Marquis, however unusual the course he chooses to adopt may be. It is possible, during the progress of the observations of any noble Lord, that notions might arise in his mind to prevent his following the plan which he meant originally to abide by, and it is reasonable to think that, though the noble Marquis rose to present a petition, he saw good cause to induce him to come to an opposite conclusion. For these reasons, my Lords, I think it would be impossible for us to agree to the Resolution proposed by the noble and learned Lord, particularly if his object be to move a censure on the noble Marquis at the Table.
Lord Plunkett: certainly such is my intention.
Lord Ellenborough—I understood that such was the object of the noble Baron,

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from the tendency of his remarks, but previous to his taking that course, I trust the noble Marquis may be allowed to explain the consideration which induced him not to present the petition. Unless he is allowed this opportunity, to move a vote of censure upon him, would be most irregular and uncourteous to the noble Marquis, and might lead as a precedent to the greatest possible inconvenience. Yet with a view to the regularity of your Lordships' proceedings—
Lord Plunkett, Earl Grey, and the Earl of Radnor rose together.
The Earl of Radnor—My Lords, it is evident that the noble Baron—
Lord Ellenborough—I rise to order. The noble Earl who has just risen to call me to order is evidently about to speak to the question, and not to the point of order.
Lord Teynham—My Lords, I ask the Lord Chancellor of Ireland to write down his resolution.
The Earl of Radnor—I rose to answer the observations of the noble Baron.
Lord Ellenborough—It is contrary to our practice, and it would be contrary to justice, to hear the noble Earl again before the noble Marquis at the Table be heard; we should hear the noble Marquis.
The Lord Chancellor—Will your Lordships allow me for a moment? Your Lordships are of course aware, that the Speaker of this House has no power to interfere in the order of your proceedings, and therefore, what I now offer is only in the shape of a suggestion. I regret that the Speaker has no further authority, for the consequence of his want of due power is, that I have seen in the course of the last Session, as well as in this, more breaches of order, and more irregularity, than I ever witnessed in any House of Parliament, or, perhaps, in any public assembly whatsoever. That inattention to order, arises no doubt from the Constitution of the House, and it may be wise that it is so; but your Lordships are all aware that, from time to time, it is productive of the greatest inconvenience. I say this, my Lords, to excuse myself for presuming to interfere on this occasion, and I beg of you to think I only do so as any other Member of the House. But I beg leave to tell every noble Lord who rises, till this point be settled, whether he rises to order or not, that he is out of order, because there is no question before the
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House. I got up to put the question on the Resolution of the noble and learned Lord, and I believe the regular course now is, that I should put it to the House in the usual manner, and with the permission of your Lordships I will now do so. The question I have to put is, that the Earl Vane (the Marquis of Londonderry) having arisen in this House to make a speech without any question before the House, and having stated—
Lord Ellenborough: I rise to order. The Resolution, as put by the noble and learned Lord, refers to words alleged to have been spoken, and to a statement made by the noble Marquis at the Table. If they were not taken down at the time, it will be quite irregular to submit any motion respecting them,
Earl Grey: If there be any thing in the observations of the noble Baron, he must see, that he should not interrupt the order of the proceedings, as the regular course is, before any observations are made on the Resolutions, that it should be put from the woolsack.
The Lord Chancellor: The question is, That Earl Vane (the Marquis of Londonderry) having risen in his place to speak, without any question being before the House, and having stated on being called to order that he had to present a petition, but not having presented it, and having refused to make any motion, or to present the petition, has been guilty of a breach of the orders of this House.
Lord Plunkett: My Lords, I rise, with your permission, to address myself to the question before the House, and for the purpose of replying to one of the most unjust and most unwarrantable attacks that have ever been made on any individual within these walls. The noble Marquis began his observations with a declaration—which I give credit to, as I am bound to believe any statement made by a noble Lord—that he had no personal hostility to me; but I leave it to you, my Lords, to say, whether his conduct is consistent with that disclaimer of personal hostility. The noble Marquis, under the pretence of asking me a question, has not thought it unbecoming in him to go into a recital of all the falsehoods which newspapers have collected with regard to me or to my family. He has made himself the organ of all the calumnies which have been uttered against me, and, without the slightest pretence whatever, has made an

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attack as bitter, as severe, and as unwarranted, as the slender abilities of the noble Lord will allow him to do. Fortunately for me, the ability of the noble Lord to strike lags behind his inclination, as, in natural history, we see that the most venomous are among the least powerful of the animal creation. The noble Lord complains that I cried "hear" to some observation of his. I certainly did so; but still am unconscious of having committed very great offence, the rather as I am not apt to complain myself when the noble Lord deigns, in his own peculiar tone, to cry "hear" to any remark of mine. My "hear" I beg leave to remark, was at least not a scream—not a sound pushed beyond the usual limits of human exclamation— in fact, was not much calculated to alarm the ears or the feelings of my auditors. In this, I confess, there is a marked difference between us; but surely my vocal inability to cope with the noble Lord ought not to be charged upon me as an offence. A noble Baron opposite (Ellenborough) has defended the noble Marquis's proceedings as not inconsistent with the usages of the House. "My noble friend," said be, "having thought better of it, was by no means irregular in withdrawing the petition he rose to present." In this, the noble Marquis, then, is only appearing in a new character, exhibiting his dramatic versatility. Allow me to congratulate him in eclipsing even himself as an orator and a logician. It is conceived to be a notable result of most specimens of human eloquence to convince others against their preconceptions, and persuade them to act according to the wishes of the speaker. For the first time, however, in the history of logic and oratory, we now have a "learned Daniel" who, in the course of his oration, actually persuades, not others, but himself, to act contrary to his own predetermination. The noble Lord has frequently before persuaded others, who might otherwise have voted on his side, that to do so would be acting in the teeth of common sense; for it is one of the shining attributes of the noble Lord's genius, that his support is injurious only to those who have the misfortune to count him as an ally; but this I believe is the first time that his per contra persuasive powers have been successfully directed against himself. Long, I trust, will they be so harmlessly directed, and long may they be as successful in persuading others to the reverse of his
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intentions as they have in the present instance, with himself. Before the noble Lord had ventured to attack me as he did, and complain of the remuneration which I have derived from the public for my services, he ought to have made himself somewhat better acquainted with simple facts. Had he been present the other evening when I moved for returns of the appointment of Secretary to the Master of the Rolls in Ireland, he would have heard me state the object of my motion, and thereby have avoided wasting his time and eloquence this evening. I now tell the noble Lord—not for his personal satisfaction, for with him I will hold no terms, and will offer no explanation whatever with a view to removing his dissatisfaction, but for the satisfaction of the House—the object I had in view in moving for these returns. Aspersions, the most unwarranted and injurious, were thrown out in another place against me with reference to the appointment of my Secretary, and a notice of motion was given in the House of Commons for documents connected with that appointment. I, accordingly, for the purpose of meeting any calumniator who would dare to repeat these aspersions to my face in this House, came down and moved for similar returns to be laid before your Lordships, so as to afford any noble Lord who might be disposed to repeat the calumny an opportunity of doing so, and myself an opportunity, which, with God's blessing, I will never shrink from, of meeting, and exposing, and chastising my calumniator. In moving for the returns, I also moved for returns of the similar appointments made by my two predecessors in office, in order that your Lordships and the public might clearly see, that the aspersions and calumny applied as much to Lords Chancellor Manners and Hart, as to Lord Chancellor Plunkett. The noble Lord has thought proper, on the authority of a newspaper statement, which, I assure your Lordships, I have never read, and to which I am wholly indifferent, to state, that my family derive 36,000 l. a-year from the public, and concerning which he calls upon me for explanation. I will not stoop to refute so extravagant a falsehood. I envy not the structure of understanding, which could bestow upon it a moment's credence. What! are noble Lords to be called upon to defend themselves in Parliament against every stupid calumny which mortified but most impotent vanity,

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or the virulence of faction, may insert in a newspaper. I am surprised that even the noble Lord could entertain such a monstrous proposition. He asks me, have I made any inquiry as to the source or authenticity of the statement? I answer him, no. I would not lower myself in my own estimation by treating it otherwise than with silent contempt. I ask the noble Lord, have any statements ever appeared in newspapers touching his own personal affairs? And, if so, has he been called upon, as he calls upon me, in his place in Parliament, to explain them away? Was it ever, for example, stated —no doubt without any foundation—that the noble Marquis applied to a certain Prime Minister for some remuneration or pension, which the said Prime Minister was cruelly unjust enough to refuse? Was the noble Lord, in a word, ever called upon to explain to the public the amount and distribution of the large sums of public money which found their way to the pockets of the Stuart family? Certainly not: it was reserved for himself to set the precedent of making a most senseless newspaper calumny the occasion of as senseless an attack on the individual calumniated. I state, then, that the newspaper allegation, on which the noble Lord has grounded his attack, is totally and absolutely a falsehood. Whether it is quite fair and consistent with the usage of Parliament and good society to make the allegations of a newspaper the pretext of calling upon any noble Lord to enter into a statement of his family affairs, I leave it, after this emphatic denial, to the good taste and gentlemanly feeling of your Lordships. I take leave of the calumny, with this assurance to the noble Lord, that I am one who have never been a hunter after favours from any Minister or government whatever. I am not one who has given his support or his opposition in Parliament according to the mere dictates of vanity or personal interest, and I am one who never made a demand for public money which the individual from whom it was demanded was forced to stigmatize as "too bad." The noble Lord professes to entertain no feelings of personal hostility against me. I profess to entertain no such feeling against him; but this I tell him, by way of wholesome warning, that if he, on any future occasion, venture to indulge in rash attacks on my character, though I will not degrade myself by fol-
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lowing the example of personal invective, he may perhaps have little reason, so far as the vanguards are concerned, to congratulate himself with a large balance on the credit side of the account between us. The noble Lord has thought fit to catechise me as to the advice which I may have felt it to be my duty to give my Sovereign in matters connected with the office I hold under him. What right has the noble Lord, or any noble Lord, to ask me such a question? Or, on what ground should he venture to charge me with having deprived him of the confidence of his Majesty, and to have given his Majesty counsel displeasing to a party who arrogate to themselves exclusive loyalty, while they are thwarting, by every means in their power, the King's Government? Such questions and such charges are the mere ravings of distempered vanity, and are not to be reasoned with by those who are capable of sound ratiocination. I can assure the noble Lord that, so far from occupying the time of my Sovereign with discussions of the noble Lord's transcendent merits as a statesman, an orator, or a logician, I never have wasted a moment of even my own time on either, and that the noble Lord's affairs are to me a matter of as utter indifference, as I am sure they must be to the rational portion of the public. This declaration may not be flattering incense to the noble Lord's estimate of his own public merits, but it is a simple fact, which I trust will spare him much future fretfulness. I do not recollect whether there is any other point on which the noble Lord is anxious to "obtain some explanation." If there be, and that he will have the goodness to remind me of it, I shall be very happy to afford him all in my power. Perhaps the little I have afforded will suffice him for the present: if not, let him hoist the flag, and I am ready for the combat. With respect to the Members of my family, I have nothing to conceal in regard to any of them. If they hold public situations, they fulfil the duties attached to them, and are not, therefore, an improper burthen on the public. I have six sons, and I have certainly endeavoured to provide for them, as it is my duty to do. Two of my sons are in the Church, two at the bar. I defy even calumny to impeach their conduct at either. My eldest son derives no emolument from the public, and all my family occupy but that station in so-

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ciety to which I am persuaded they are fully entitled.
The Marquis of Londonderry: I wish to put it to the noble Lord, whether persisting in his resolution can have any other effect than perpetuating angry personal feelings. Among your Lordships I am desirous to explain, that I was prevented presenting the petition which I meant to lay on the Table solely by the jeers and taunts which were directed against me, when I said I was about to present a petition on a different subject from that on which I spoke, and I was determined to show, that I would not allow any noble Lord to scoff and taunt me. If it be your pleasure, my Lords, I will now present it to the House. With respect to the course pursued by the noble and learned Lord, I must say, that, instead of answering toy question, he has chosen to bring forward personalities in reply. He has evaded a statement of facts, but I must tell the noble Lord, that neither eloquence nor facetiousness can get the better of facts. I hold in my hand, and I will now read, a document which has appeared in all the Journals of Ireland, and, as I said before, if it be untrue, the noble Lord should have prosecuted the papers for libel. The statement has been generally circulated in Dublin. I think the noble and learned Lord should be disposed not to look upon it with so much indifference; and it may be worth his while to explain the charges brought against him. The noble Lord, however, does not choose to do so, and he prefers to calculate what I have received during ten years of diplomatic service, to compare it with his own, and to draw a large balance against me.
Lord Plunkett: I did no such thing.
The Marquis of Londonderry: I ask you, my Lords, if that is a fair way of meeting the charges?
Lord Plunkett: I repeat I did not do so.
The Marquis of Londonderry: The noble Lord then referred to words said to have been used by the late Earl of Liverpool; but that is rather a curious mode of defence, and I protest I cannot see how the turning on me can answer the charges which are brought against himself, for money received by him and by his family. With regard to that diplomatic pension which the noble Lord refers to, I can only say, it was never asked for myself, but for the profession to which I had the honour to belong. It was not for me to decide
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whether the Government was in a situation to give it or not, but I felt it to be my duty to advocate the claim, leaving myself the choice, if it were decided in my favour, to accept of it or not. I defy the noble and learned Lord to prove that the course of my life has been avaricious. I defy him to charge such a stain upon my family, one member of which your Lordships were Well acquainted with; add I challenge him to disprove this assertion, that if ever there was a Minister who drew less from the public purse than another, it was that distinguished relative to whom I allude. For myself, I can only say, that, as an Ambassador, I had but the same allowance as any other Ambassador; and, with regard to the pension, I was bound to uphold the interests of the service to which I was attached. I, therefore, claimed it; and I think the decision against me was unjust. As the noble Lord has provoked me to it, I will read what is stated of him, by which it will be seen whether or not the members of the economical and retrenching Administration, with which he is connected, take care to feather their own nests. The first item is, the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, 10,000 l.—
Lord Plunkett: That is the first falsehood.
The Marquis of Londonderry: I did not interrupt the noble and learned Lord. I hope he will not interfere with me, and allow me to go on without this breach of order.
Earl Grey: My Lords, I must interfere, for the purpose of saying One word. There is a resolution before the House, respecting the breach of order which the noble Marquis has committed, in the latitude of discussion which he assumes to himself, which must be disposed of. My Lords, I cannot conceive on what principle it is that a noble Lord comes down to the House with a newspaper statement of all the offices which another noble Lord and his family are supposed to possess. I do not understand on what principle an explanation can be demanded from any noble Lord on such a statement, and I think that the valuable time of the House should not be occupied at all with it. Such newspaper reports are generally most erroneous, and much exaggerated. For instance, we have all heard of a certain publication called the "Black Book," and that the name of every Member of this House has figured in it, with sums attached to their names, as

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of the public money received by them. If the present case be in order, all this may be brought before the House; and, I imagine, neither the noble Marquis, nor any noble Lord who is named in that book, would like to see it brought down here, and be questioned as to its gross and extravagant falsehoods. Therefore, I say, the course of the noble Marquis is most disorderly, and it ought not to be pursued.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, he had erred unintentionally in having made the remarks he had submitted to the House, without a specific motion. He acknowledged it would have been more regular to have moved for returns of the emoluments, salaries, &c. enjoyed by the noble and learned Lord and his family, and, probably, he would do so on a future occasion, so as to afford the learned Lord ah opportunity of proving, that his professions of disinterestedness, and of having been above all sordid considerations during his public career, were above cavil or suspicion. When he was deprived of the high situation which he had formerly held in Ireland, he thought he had some right to speak his sentiments broadly, and to be heard with patience by the House.
Lord Ellenboroughrose to order. He fully concurred in what had fallen from the noble Earl opposite, with respect to orders of the House; and, while he said this, he would make no observations upon what had been said either by the noble Marquis near him, or the noble and learned Lord at the other side of the House. He would not oppose the noble and learned Lord while he spoke, because he felt that the Resolution moved by him was so moved with a view to enable the noble and learned Lord to reply to the observations made upon him; but he would oppose the noble Marquis who had just been speaking. It was to be recollected, that the noble Marquis had said, that his only reason for not presenting the petition was, the excitement he laboured under from the taunts of the noble Lord opposite; and that, if it were the pleasure of the House, he was then ready to present the petition. He (Lord Ellenborough) apprehended that, after this, there was but one course left to the noble and learned Lord opposite, namely, to withdraw his Resolution. Another reason might be given why this course was advisable, namely, that if one noble Lord did trespass on the orders of the House—of which, by the bye, their Lordships were not
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very strict observers—there might be some apology for him, under such circumstances as had taken place. But, above all, it was to be borne in mind that such motions as the present were only calculated to excite personal feelings, and they did not at all contribute to the proper and calm discussion of any subjects that might come before the House.
Earl Greysaid that, however unpleasant and however painful this Motion might be, he hoped it would have one good effect in correcting the extreme irregularity which the House had lately indulged in, and that noble Lords, in future, would not proceed to a latitude of extravagant declamation on topics not at all connected with the subject before the House. And here he begged to give fair notice to the noble Marquis that he would give no answers to the questions intended to be proposed by the noble Marquis on Monday; but that he should be ready to meet the noble Marquis upon any motion he might bring forward with reference to the extraordinary diplomatic exhibitions he had alluded to. He, however, trusted that any motion that might be originated would be brought forward in a regular manner. He was unwilling to press this Motion with unusual severity; but it was to be recollected, that the noble Marquis had pursued a course anything but usual in that House. The noble Marquis had made a most violent attack, in the course of which he had read a gross libel on the noble and learned Lord, calling him venal and corrupt. The noble Marquis had been called to order by a noble friend near him (the Earl of Radnor); when, to vindicate himself, he said that he intended to present a petition on the subject. He could not conceive, for his part, what kind of petition would warrant the observation of the noble Marquis; but he felt, at the same time, bound to wait and ascertain it. However, the noble Marquis, at the Conclusion of his speech, said, "And now, my Lords, I beg to present a petition on a totally different subject." Then the noble and learned Lord brought forward his Motion; and, upon that, the noble Marquis refused to present any petition whatever. How, then, did the matter stand? The noble Marquis went into a speech which he ought to have made only upon a motion. He assigned, as his justification, his intention to make such motion; but, when he came to the end, he would make no motion. He (Earl Grey) thought, that if the

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House meant to pay any regard to its usages and orders, it would be impossible for their Lordships to decline doing something to mark their sense of the breach of these usages. But, as he had said, he was unwilling that his noble and learned friend should press his Motion; though, before his noble and learned friend could be asked to withdraw his Resolution, there must be some apology for the breach that had been committed. The noble Lord (Ellenborough) had offered something of the kind, but the noble Marquis himself had done no such thing; and instead of doing so, had, on the contrary, rather aggravated his original violation of order. If the noble Marquis would now do as had been offered by the noble Baron (Ellenborough), he would concur in desiring his noble and learned friend to withdraw his Motion; but, unless some atonement were offered for the violation of the orders of the House, it would be impossible for him to concur in any such request.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, that, if the noble Lord thought the Motion a good one, he might persevere in it. He (Lord Londonderry) must, however, say, that there was no day during the last Session on which he had not heard noble Lords come down and put questions of this kind. If this were just and allowable in others, could it be just to pass a censure upon him, because he had mentioned charges which might not be agreeable to an individual, and which charges, although strong, might, as to the facts, nevertheless be true? Nor could the noble Earl, let him do what he would, oblige him to obey his dictatorial domination. He was ready to present the petition: he stood upon his innocence, and, if he had given way to his feelings, he had done no more than had been repeatedly done by others. If the noble Earl, feeling he had the power, wished to pass a censure upon an individual like him, he might of course do so.
The Earl of Aberdeenadmitted that, according to the strict rule of the House, the noble Marquis had been guilty of a breach of Order; but he must, at the same time observe, that the noble Marquis might, even after making a speech upon all matters whatsoever, have placed himself within the Orders of the House, by concluding with moving an adjournment. This had been done by a noble Lord opposite, in his (the Earl of Aberdeen's) own case. He did not mean to justify the prac-
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tice, but merely meant to state the facts. He regretted the tone of the noble Earl's observations, which had thwarted the completion of the course at which they were arriving, namely, that of the noble Marquis's presenting the petition, and thus practically apologizing to the House for the error into which he had been betrayed; and the noble and learned Lord's withdrawing the Motion. He did not consider that the matter was of sufficient importance to be made the subject of a proceeding so grave; and it would be scarcely just, after the opening which had been afforded by the noble Marquis, if the affair was not at once brought to its proper conclusion; especially as the noble Marquis had admitted that he acted upon the spur of the moment.
Lord Doversaid, that, with reference to the vote of censure proposed, it must be borne in mind that, in the first place, the noble Marquis had made a virulent attack on the noble and learned Lord, and in the course of it had offered him an insult. The noble Marquis had not since offered any atonement for it.
Lord Wharncliffesaid, that the question was, not whether there had been a breach of order, but whether it was worth while to visit the breach of order that had been committed with the punishment of censure. Noble Lords opposite might be of a different opinion, but he thought this was a course that should not too frequently be resorted to. He was sure that the noble Marquis would say, he was sorry for having committed a breach of the Orders of the House, and then, doubtless, the noble and learned Lord would withdraw his Motion. He did not apprehend that the noble Marquis would object to doing this, for he had himself admitted, that he did commit a breach, but that he thought the taunt which had been applied to him gave him some excuse. There was no one who had heard the whole transaction who must not admit, that the noble Marquis had violated the Orders of the House, and there could be no imputation upon him for saying that he was sorry for having done so.
Earl Greyagreed with the noble Lord who had just spoken, and, as he had before said, nothing was more foreign from his wish than to press this Motion; but, as the question had been raised, some apology was due to the House. Without this, he did not see how the Motion could be withdrawn.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, that, according to the rules of the House, he had committed a breach of its Orders, he must admit; but that others had equally committed similar breaches he would aver. According, therefore, to the rules of the House, he had no hesitation in admitting that he felt bound to say he was sorry for having done so.
Earl Greyhad no hesitation in saying, that the noble Marquis had made the requisite apology, and he was as convinced, that his noble and learned friend would withdraw his Motion.
Lord Plunkettsaid, he had much satisfaction in acceding to the wish of his noble friend, and he would therefore beg leave to withdraw his Motion.
Motion withdrawn.