The Marquess of Lansdownlaid on the Table the Second Report of the Select Committee on Tithes in Ireland, accompanied with minutes of the Evidence taken before it. The noble Marquess said, that as Bills would be immediately introduced in the other House of Parliament on this important subject, he should content himself at present with moving, that the Report which he had now presented, and the evidence which accompanied it, should be read.
§ The Report read.
§ The Marquess of Lansdown moved, that the Report and the minutes of Evidence taken before the Committee be printed.
Lord Carberyexpressed a hope that this Report would be taken into consideration, and a discussion had upon it, before the Bills alluded to came up from the other House.
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, that this Report was so similar to the second Report of the Tithe Committee in the House of Commons, that it would appear that both Reports were the manufacture of the same hand. As far as he understood those 1081 Reports, he was ready to say, that he would give them, generally speaking, his support, as he felt that the measures which they recommended, and which were about to be founded upon them, would be calculated to allay disturbance in Ireland, and to give satisfaction both to the clergy and laity there. He had only to regret that this Report came at such a late period of the Session, and that it had not accompanied the first Report from this Committee, to which was to be attributed a great portion of the evils that now afflicted Ireland on the subject of tithes. That first Report, in recommending the extinction of tithes in that country, had since completely carried into effect that recommendation.
The Marquess of Westmeathwarned his Majesty's Ministers not to nail their colours to the mast on the question of tithes, for he could state, from his own practical knowledge, that the popular feeling in Ireland had become quite fanatical on that subject.
The Marquess of Lansdownsaid, that the similarity of the two Reports, to which the noble Earl had alluded, had naturally arisen from the circumstance of the Committees of both Houses having fully investigated the subject, in the same spirit, and with the same determination to arrive at those conclusions which the facts laid before them would warrant. The thorough sifting to which this important matter had been subjected, was the cause of the delay that had occurred in the presentation of this Report. He should have been as glad as the noble Earl if this Report could have accompanied the first Report on this subject, but when their Lordships reflected on the deliberate consideration which the Committee had to give to this subject, and on the time which they had to devote to the investigation and comparison of the several statements laid before them, and when their Lordships were informed, that it was only on the last day of the sitting of the Committee that some valuable statements, which would materially influence their Lordships' judgment in the question, had been obtained, their Lordships would see that it would have been impossible for the Committee, on a subject of such magnitude and importance, to come to a definitive Report at an earlier period; and though he admitted that it was most desirable that they should legislate with rapidity on this subject, they 1082 should not legislate on it at the expense of justice and discretion.
The Duke of Cumberlandwished to know, if the Bills of which the noble Marquess had spoken would be introduced this Session?
The Earl of Wicklowwished to know, whether the three bills recommended in the Report would be all brought forward this Session?
The Earl of Malmesburysaid, that if such a system as this should be established in Ireland, a long time would not elapse before it would be demanded also in England. Such important measures as the noble Marquess had alluded to, ought not to be brought forward at such a late period of the Session, when it would be utterly impossible to have a proper discussion upon them. If those Bills should be introduced in the other House, they could not be before that House until the end of July, when most of their Lordships would be out of town. He understood that the notice for their introduction in the other House had been just postponed till this day week, and that at a period of the Session when a week was worth a month. It was impossible for their Lordships to get through, properly, the great mass of business which was thus rolled in on them towards the termination of a Session, and one cause of which was, that so few measures originated in that House.
§ Earl Greysaid, that one cause of the load of business which came before their Lordships at the end of a Session, and to which the noble Earl had alluded, was, that many bills, such as Money Bills, could only originate in the other House of Parliament. The great accumulation of business which pressed on their Lordships towards the end of a Session was to be lamented, and should be avoided if possible; but it had always been so, and its being so now was not attributable to any want of diligence on the part of the other House of Parliament. During the present Session, for five out of six days in the week the House of Commons had sat, on an average, from five o'clock in the day until two o'clock in the morning, and it was impossible for it to get through more business than it did. He regretted that 1083 such an important subject as this should come before their Lordships at such a late period of the Session, but the pressing nature of the case was such, that it was absolutely indispensable for their Lordships to apply their minds to it, in order to put this unfortunate subject on a better footing if possible. With regard to the postponement of the introduction of the Bills in the other House until next week, that postponement was not attributable to the right hon. Gentleman who was to introduce them, but it was forced upon him by those who objected to the introduction of the measures, until the evidence was printed, and in the hands of the Members. It was impossible to refuse such a request, and that was the cause of the postponement of the Bills until this day week. As soon as they were introduced, he could assure their Lordships that they would be passed through the other House with all possible expedition, consistent with that careful consideration which was due to such an important subject. His Majesty's Ministers could not answer for the delays which might be interposed to the progress of the measure by those who were opposed to it, but, on their parts, no diligence should be wanting to push it through Parliament, and bring the subject to a conclusion. He was ready to admit, that there never was an important subject brought before Parliament which was accompanied with greater difficulties, but he trusted that the discussions on it would be conducted with no party feeling or spirit, but solely with a view to the settling of a question, until the settlement of which was effected, the prosperity and happiness of that interesting portion of his Majesty's dominions, which he believed was capable of a greater degree of prosperity than any other part of them, could never be established upon anything like a permanent footing.
Lord Carberyrepeated his anxious hope, that they should have a discussion on this subject before the Bills came up from the House of Commons.
Lord Ellenboroughconcurred in the opinion just expressed by his noble friend. When those bills should come before that House, it would be impossible to obtain such an attendance of their Lordships as there ought to be on such an important subject. It would be in accordance both with precedent and reason, for his Majesty's Ministers, on such an important subject, to propose resolutions to the 1084 House, confirmatory of the Report now presented, and in that way a discussion would he had on the subject at once.
The Earl of Wicklow, thought that the second Bill of the three Bills recommended in the Report might originate in that House, and that thus the progress of the measures would be considerably facilitated.
§ Lord Bexleysuggested, that the deductions which it was proposed by the Report to make from the incomes of the clergy, equivalent to the expense now incurred by them in the collection of their tithes, should be appropriated to the increase of the value of small livings, and to the building of churches in Ireland.
§ The Report and the evidence ordered to be printed.