Lords Sitting of 28 June 1832

MINUTES.
Papers ordered. On the Motion of the Earl of MORLEY, an Account of the Highest and Lowest Price at which, according to the Official Returns published in the London Gazette, Wheat has been sold in each of the twenty-four years, from June, 1808, to June, 1832, inclusive, stating the difference or fluctuation between the Highest and Lowest Prices in each year; the Average of Fluctuation in each three years, and the Average Price of each year as taken from the weekly Returns.
Petitions presented. By the Duke of LEINSTER, from Clog-been and Shanraham, for a Revision of the Criminal Code.—By the Earl of RADNOR, from Monaghan, for as extensive and efficient a Reform for Ireland as has been granted to England.—By the Marquess of SLIGO, from two Places in Ireland,—in favour of the Ministerial Plan of Education (Ireland).—By Lord KING, from five Places in Ireland, for the Abolition of Tithes, Church Rates, and Vestry Taxes.

TITHES (IRELAND), SECOND REPORT.
The Marquess of Lansdownlaid on the Table the Second Report of the Select Committee on Tithes in Ireland, accompanied with minutes of the Evidence taken before it. The noble Marquess said, that as Bills would be immediately introduced in the other House of Parliament on this important subject, he should content himself at present with moving, that the Report which he had now presented, and the evidence which accompanied it, should be read.
The Report read.
The Marquess of Lansdown moved, that the Report and the minutes of Evidence taken before the Committee be printed.
Lord Carberyexpressed a hope that this Report would be taken into consideration, and a discussion had upon it, before the Bills alluded to came up from the other House.
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, that this Report was so similar to the second Report of the Tithe Committee in the House of Commons, that it would appear that both Reports were the manufacture of the same hand. As far as he understood those

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Reports, he was ready to say, that he would give them, generally speaking, his support, as he felt that the measures which they recommended, and which were about to be founded upon them, would be calculated to allay disturbance in Ireland, and to give satisfaction both to the clergy and laity there. He had only to regret that this Report came at such a late period of the Session, and that it had not accompanied the first Report from this Committee, to which was to be attributed a great portion of the evils that now afflicted Ireland on the subject of tithes. That first Report, in recommending the extinction of tithes in that country, had since completely carried into effect that recommendation.
The Marquess of Westmeathwarned his Majesty's Ministers not to nail their colours to the mast on the question of tithes, for he could state, from his own practical knowledge, that the popular feeling in Ireland had become quite fanatical on that subject.
The Marquess of Lansdownsaid, that the similarity of the two Reports, to which the noble Earl had alluded, had naturally arisen from the circumstance of the Committees of both Houses having fully investigated the subject, in the same spirit, and with the same determination to arrive at those conclusions which the facts laid before them would warrant. The thorough sifting to which this important matter had been subjected, was the cause of the delay that had occurred in the presentation of this Report. He should have been as glad as the noble Earl if this Report could have accompanied the first Report on this subject, but when their Lordships reflected on the deliberate consideration which the Committee had to give to this subject, and on the time which they had to devote to the investigation and comparison of the several statements laid before them, and when their Lordships were informed, that it was only on the last day of the sitting of the Committee that some valuable statements, which would materially influence their Lordships' judgment in the question, had been obtained, their Lordships would see that it would have been impossible for the Committee, on a subject of such magnitude and importance, to come to a definitive Report at an earlier period; and though he admitted that it was most desirable that they should legislate with rapidity on this subject, they
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should not legislate on it at the expense of justice and discretion.
The Duke of Cumberlandwished to know, if the Bills of which the noble Marquess had spoken would be introduced this Session?
The Marquess of Lansdown: Yes, immediately.
The Earl of Wicklowwished to know, whether the three bills recommended in the Report would be all brought forward this Session?
The Marquess of Lansdownsaid, that they would be all introduced in the other House of Parliament.
The Earl of Malmesburysaid, that if such a system as this should be established in Ireland, a long time would not elapse before it would be demanded also in England. Such important measures as the noble Marquess had alluded to, ought not to be brought forward at such a late period of the Session, when it would be utterly impossible to have a proper discussion upon them. If those Bills should be introduced in the other House, they could not be before that House until the end of July, when most of their Lordships would be out of town. He understood that the notice for their introduction in the other House had been just postponed till this day week, and that at a period of the Session when a week was worth a month. It was impossible for their Lordships to get through, properly, the great mass of business which was thus rolled in on them towards the termination of a Session, and one cause of which was, that so few measures originated in that House.
Earl Greysaid, that one cause of the load of business which came before their Lordships at the end of a Session, and to which the noble Earl had alluded, was, that many bills, such as Money Bills, could only originate in the other House of Parliament. The great accumulation of business which pressed on their Lordships towards the end of a Session was to be lamented, and should be avoided if possible; but it had always been so, and its being so now was not attributable to any want of diligence on the part of the other House of Parliament. During the present Session, for five out of six days in the week the House of Commons had sat, on an average, from five o'clock in the day until two o'clock in the morning, and it was impossible for it to get through more business than it did. He regretted that

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such an important subject as this should come before their Lordships at such a late period of the Session, but the pressing nature of the case was such, that it was absolutely indispensable for their Lordships to apply their minds to it, in order to put this unfortunate subject on a better footing if possible. With regard to the postponement of the introduction of the Bills in the other House until next week, that postponement was not attributable to the right hon. Gentleman who was to introduce them, but it was forced upon him by those who objected to the introduction of the measures, until the evidence was printed, and in the hands of the Members. It was impossible to refuse such a request, and that was the cause of the postponement of the Bills until this day week. As soon as they were introduced, he could assure their Lordships that they would be passed through the other House with all possible expedition, consistent with that careful consideration which was due to such an important subject. His Majesty's Ministers could not answer for the delays which might be interposed to the progress of the measure by those who were opposed to it, but, on their parts, no diligence should be wanting to push it through Parliament, and bring the subject to a conclusion. He was ready to admit, that there never was an important subject brought before Parliament which was accompanied with greater difficulties, but he trusted that the discussions on it would be conducted with no party feeling or spirit, but solely with a view to the settling of a question, until the settlement of which was effected, the prosperity and happiness of that interesting portion of his Majesty's dominions, which he believed was capable of a greater degree of prosperity than any other part of them, could never be established upon anything like a permanent footing.
Lord Carberyrepeated his anxious hope, that they should have a discussion on this subject before the Bills came up from the House of Commons.
Lord Ellenboroughconcurred in the opinion just expressed by his noble friend. When those bills should come before that House, it would be impossible to obtain such an attendance of their Lordships as there ought to be on such an important subject. It would be in accordance both with precedent and reason, for his Majesty's Ministers, on such an important subject, to propose resolutions to the
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House, confirmatory of the Report now presented, and in that way a discussion would he had on the subject at once.
The Earl of Wicklow, thought that the second Bill of the three Bills recommended in the Report might originate in that House, and that thus the progress of the measures would be considerably facilitated.
Lord Bexleysuggested, that the deductions which it was proposed by the Report to make from the incomes of the clergy, equivalent to the expense now incurred by them in the collection of their tithes, should be appropriated to the increase of the value of small livings, and to the building of churches in Ireland.
The Report and the evidence ordered to be printed.

RUSSIAN-DUTCH LOAN—CONVENTION WITH RUSSIA.
Earl Grey presented to the House, by his Majesty's command, a copy of the Convention between his Majesty and the Emperor of all the Russias, and moved that it be printed.
The Earl of Aberdeensaid, that the noble Earl had departed from the usual practice of laying such documents simultaneously before both Houses, for a copy of this treaty had been yesterday laid before the House of Commons. He perceived from that copy, that this convention was signed on the 16th of November, 1831, and that by the first article of it, his Majesty engaged to recommend to his Parliament to enable him to make the payments guaranteed by the convention of 1815. When he recurred to the date of the convention, and when he recollected the arguments which had been made use of by his Majesty's Government, to justify the payment of these monies without the sanction of Parliament, he thought that there must be some mistake as to its date, and that it should be the 16th of June instead of the 16th of November, 1831. He would offer no opinion as to this convention now, as, seeing that his Majesty engaged to apply to Parliament to enable him to fulfil the engagements it contained, he presumed that the noble Earl would, at some time, and in some manner, call upon the House to do so, and that then they would be enabled to discuss the subject of this treaty. He observed that in this convention the two Powers referred to the convention of the 19th of May, 1815, and to an additional article connected with that convention. He believed that

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there was an additional article to the treaty of the 15th of May, which had never yet been laid before Parliament. Now, as the contents of that article might form part of the justification of his Majesty's Ministers for entering into this convention, he supposed the noble Earl would have no objection to the production of that document.
Earl Greysaid, that with respect to the first point alluded to by the noble Earl, that of informality in not laying the paper before the two Houses on the same day, he had only to state, that he was on his way yesterday to that House, for the purpose of laying the papers before their Lordships, when he was met by several noble Lords, who informed him that the House had already adjourned. With respect to the other question of the noble Earl, he was not aware that he could, at that moment, give him any information. As to the additional article of May 15, he did not know that it had not been laid before Parliament. If it had not been produced, he supposed that some reason existed for adopting that course. For his own part, he was not aware of any objection to a compliance with the suggestion of the noble Earl. He hoped, however, that the noble Earl would not press for a positive answer, until he (Earl Grey) had an opportunity of making some inquiry on the subject.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM—BILL FOR SCOTLAND—FIRST READING.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he should, without any observation, call the attention of their Lordships to the Scotch Reform Bill, which had that evening been brought up from the other House. He should move "That the Bill be now read a first time." It might then be printed, preparatory to the Second Reading,—Bill read first time

SCHOOLS OF ANATOMY.
The Earl of Radnorpresented a Petition from William Cobbett, against the Anatomy Bill. The petitioner, in an elaborate essay, opposed the measure, and contended, that a due degree of anatomical knowledge could be procured without resorting to the provisions contained in this Bill.
The Earl of Malmesburyobserved, that this Bill pressed hardly upon the poor, who would be most affected by its operation. The body of a poor man who died in the hospital, in consequence of an accident, might, if not claimed within a certain time, be made use of in the dissecting-
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room. Perhaps the individual himself might not care if his body were so treated; but he begged of their Lordships to look a little further, and consider what might be the feelings of his family. Individuals, perfect strangers in town, frequently sought for employment in the metropolis. They might, while employed by a builder, or any other tradesman, meet with accidents productive of death. Some time might elapse before their relatives were apprized of their fate, and then they would be horror-struck when they found that their bodies were consigned to the dissecting-room. If something could be done to obviate the objections that could fairly be raised against this measure, and, at the same time, to furnish an adequate number of bodies for the purposes of dissection, it would give him very great satisfaction.
The Earl of Mintosaid, that the poor were more concerned than any other portion of the community in the dissemination of surgical knowledge. In his opinion, therefore, no such inconveniences as those which had been adverted to by his noble friend ought to be allowed to stand in the way of this measure. In consequence of the extreme scarcity of subjects, those who were employed to supply the surgeons had, in many instances, been guilty of the most frightful crimes. One man, who had been executed at Edinburgh, confessed to the murder of between twenty-five and thirty persons; another individual, who had more recently undergone the sentence of the law, confessed to two murders. He also admitted two cases in which murder had been attempted, but the attempt had failed; and, on the morning of his execution, he was on the point of confessing another murder, when he was interrupted in his recital.
Lord Wynfordsaid, he had been informed by a highly respectable practitioner, that a full supply of subjects could be obtained without resorting to the provisions of this Bill.
The Earl of Mintoadmitted that it would be an improvement, if the provisions of the Bill could be so framed as not to point out so distinctly as it did, that its operation had reference to a particular class.
Petition laid on the Table.

VACATION OF SEATS IN PARLIAMENT.
The Marquess of Northampton, in postponing, sine die, the second read-

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ing of the Bill to prevent Members of the House of Commons from vacating their seats on accepting office, said, that he was not one of those who entertained the opinion, that the subject to which the Bill referred was one with which their Lordships had no right to interfere. In bringing the question forward he had not been actuated by any party spirit. He was not impelled by a desire to serve any party; his motives were purely of a public nature. His reason for now moving the postponement of the Bill was, because, as they had arrived at so late a period of the Session, he feared that it would not be possible to carry the measure through. If some individual of greater influence than himself did not take up the subject, he would himself, at a future period, again bring it forward.
The order for the second reading of the Bill discharged.