The Lord Chancellorpresented a Petition from the Merchants, Bankers, and Traders of the City of Leicester, complaining of the existing state of the law between Debtor and Creditor, and praying that their Lordships would support the Bill on that subject, which had been introduced by him (the Lord Chancellor). That Bill had, as their Lordships were probably aware, been referred to the Commissioners of Law Inquiry, with a view to ascertain whether it might not be brought forward in a more improved shape. He took this opportunity to mention, that it was his intention, in the course of a few days—probably in the course of next week—to lay before their Lordships a Bill to the same effect as that which he had before introduced—but which had been lost owing to the dissolution—for effecting certain changes, and abolishing certain places in the Court of Chancery. When the Bill should be brought in, he should explain the general nature of its provisions, and then it would be for Parliament to have it printed, and allowed to stand over for consideration; or otherwise to deal with it as it might think proper. At present he would not trouble the House by entering into any details of the measure. He would, how- 739 ever, take that opportunity, in justice to himself, of making some observations on an arrangement which had been lately made with respect to some offices in the Court of Chancery; although he took it for granted, that none of their Lordships would suppose that any change had taken place in his opinions with respect to the abolition of certain offices in Chancery, or that any explanation was called for. But certain inquiries on the subject had been made in another place within the last forty-eight hours, as to which a public law officer had not then been able, it appeared, to give the requisite information. If that officer was ignorant on the subject, it was his own fault; for if he had asked him, he would have given him the requisite information. His ignorance, therefore, arose only from that which was the usual cause of ignorance among mankind—that was, that they had not taken the proper means to acquire information. The office which he held (that of Lord Chancellor) was, as must now be well known to their Lordships, paid in the very worst way in which it could be paid, partly by salary, partly by fees, and partly by patronage. This salary, those fees, and this patronage, were annexed to the office in order to enable the person holding it to support his dignity, and the burthens which he thereby entailed on himself and on his family. This was now admitted on all hands. It was universally admitted, that such was the object of the patronage branch of these emoluments, for they were considered as emoluments to be applied in the manner and for the purposes which he had stated. He put this nakedly and plainly to their Lordships, for such was the real state of the case; and this was one of the great objections to the way in which the office of Lord Chancellor was paid. For what was the consequence? The consequence obviously was, that one Lord Chancellor such as Lord Lough-borough, might be eight years in office, during which none of the places might fall in, and another might be only eight months in office, during which the whole of them might fall in. The necessary effect was, to keep alive a number of useless places, in order to pay an officer, who almost of all others, ought to be paid in a direct, fair, equal, and certain manner. He alluded to such offices as were offices of mere patronage, and not to such offices as those of Masters in Chancery, Com- 740 missioners of Bankrupts, and places of that kind. These offices of mere patronage had in the Courts of Common Law, been made subjects of family settlements. Lord Mansfield, it was well known, had made some of them the subject of marriage settlement, and a predecessor of his had held one of them, that of Clerk of the Hanaper; and a larger office, that of Registrar of Affidavits, had been the subject of purchase, and the profits had been divided among four daughters. He mentioned this only to show how these offices were disposed of, without meaning to blame any individual. They were matters for which no individual was responsible. The fault was in the system. It being his opinion, which was well known, that this was one of the worst ways in which a Lord Chancellor could be remunerated, as being an infringement of every rule that ought to prevail in the making of that remuneration—bad, because it was uncertain—bad, because it was variable—bad, as giving too much to one and nothing to another—and bad, as exposing an office to public odium and contempt which ought ever to be held in public respect and esteem. He was also of opinion, that it tended to create abuse, and to remove that proper control and those wholesome checks which were every where necessary to secure the right performance of the public service. He did not mean to say, that these consequences had all resulted, but he maintained that, as long as men were men, the existing mode of paying the Chancellor must have a manifest tendency to produce such consequences. Such being his opinion, and such having been the opinion which he had always expressed both in that House and the other House of Parliament, he need hardly state, that ever since he had come into office it had been his unalterable determination to endeavour to prevail on Parliament to abolish these offices, and substitute a less objectionable mode of remuneration for the person, whoever he might be, who might hold the office of Lord Chancellor. He had brought Bills into Parliament for that purpose. While these Bills were in progress in Parliament, it had been suggested that several improvements might be introduced, and he had been induced to refer them to some members of the profession, and to consult with them as to the manner in which the object which he had in view might be best effected. Some further in- 741 formation had been obtained in consequence of this proceeding, and it was proposed to make a considerable alteration in the Bills, so that the abolition of two offices—that of Registrar of Affidavits and another—might be combined in one measure instead of two. He also proposed to submit to Parliament a measure for the creation of a Court of Appeal, formed of the Lord Chief Baron and other proper Judges, to which it might be optional to parties to appeal, or it might be made incumbent on them, if Parliament should so think fit; but, he should say to which it should be optional to parties to appeal instead of appealing to this House. This he expected to be able to lay before their Lordships in a few days, and would not then enter into the details. But, with regard to the measure for the abolition of offices, when that was nearly ready to be presented to Parliament, the unfortunate and melancholy event (the death of Mr. Scott, son of Lord Eldon) happened, which vested two of the offices entirely in him (the Lord Chancellor), and he was as completely in possession of those offices, and as thoroughly entitled to give them to whomever he pleased, as he was to receive the salary and the fees which constituted the other portion of his remuneration. He need not repeat that he conceived this to be a bad mode of official remuneration, and one which he was determined to use every means in his power to abolish, as a practice unworthy of his office, and calculated to lower it in public estimation. The fault also, he repeated, lay in the system, and not in the individual Chancellor, and he trusted that he should be the last person filling the office who would have to complain of its workings. But surely it did not follow, that because he had pledged himself to the abolition of those sinecures, that he should, when the appointments thus unexpectedly fell into his hands, refrain from taking possession of some of the emoluments of his office, before any regulation had been adopted for placing them on a better footing. The proposition was absurd, and surely never entered into the head of any man possessing brains; so that he was convinced that the question put by a learned Gentleman in another place, which seemed to insinuate that he was violating his pledge by filling up the appointment, had no such meaning, and wholy originated from a laudable anxiety to "elicit information on a matter 742 affecting the character of the highest law authority." "Yes," continued the learned Lord, "I am bound to believe—nay, cannot for a moment doubt—that the learned Gentleman was wholly influenced by this most praiseworthy desire of information. How could I think otherwise, knowing as I do, in common with all your Lordships, that philosophers have long since eulogized this laudable thirst of knowledge as the most distinguished attribute of humanity, and as the most distinguished feature of an ingenious and lofty intellect? Yes, my Lords, we have all read, that it is this Heaven-born thirst of information, and its invariable concomitant a self-disregarding and candid mind, that most distinguishes man from the lower animals, from the crawling reptile, from the wasp that stings, and from the wasp that fain would, but cannot sting; distinguishes us, my Lords, not only, from the insect that crawls and stings, but from that more powerful, because more offensive creature, the bug, which, powerful and offensive as it is, is, after all, but vermin. Yes, I say, it is this laudable propensity, upon which humanity justly prides itself, which I have no doubt solely influenced the learned Gentleman to whom I allude, to seek for information which it would be cruel to stingily gratify." Convinced that this was the sole source of the learned Gentleman's question and remark, he only regretted that he did not apply to him sooner for an answer. Fortunately, so far as the cavil of little minds was concerned, he had living witnesses in that House and elsewhere to testify, that before the melancholy occasion of the vacancies, and, forty-eight hours after they had occurred, he had expressed his firm determination to go on with the self-same sinecure-abolishing Bill, precisely as if these vacancies were not likely to occur, or never had occurred. There would be, as he had stated, some alterations or differences between that and the Bill he had formerly spoken of as in progress of maturation; but this he pledged himself to, that neither in letter, spirit, form, or figure, should the most insect and miscroscopic eye detect the remotest change in that portion of the Bill under which the very two offices at issue would be totally abolished. Of that part of the Bill, every line, every word, every letter, every jot and tittle would be the same as before, and within forty-eight hours from the time when he learned that these offices had become 743 his own property, be had intimated his intention of proceeding as before with the abolition. He begged pardon; there was to be one alteration, and that was, that another office of 700l. a-year was to be included in the abolition. Such was the real state of the case, and he had only to add, that he hailed with great approbation the appearance elsewhere of the new zeal for the abolition of sinecure places, which were a most ancient and constitutional feature, and under which the country had become the glory of surrounding nations, and the envy of the world, as a sign of the times, and as a proof that at last we might hope to see their abolition. He trusted they would proceed in their economical career; and thanking them for their attention to himself, he would venture to suggest "they might go further and fare worse." For his part, he would continue his earnest endeavours to "set his own house in order." His sphere was necessarily limited, but, in the Court of Chancery, he would labour so long as he held office, trusting that the day was not distant when cheap, and speedy, and efficient justice should be within the reach of every British subject. He would not limit his exertions to the abolishing of the two sinecures more immediately under consideration, but should propose a measure for abolishing all the sinecures connected with his office, the majority of which, as they knew, were filled by noble relatives of his predecessors in office. That measure he would leave Parliament to adopt, if it should, as he was sure it would, see fitting. He was glad that they had thought proper to bestow so much attention on him. But let them not look to him only. There were many others who well deserved their attention. He could deal only with the sinecure offices in the Court of Chancery. There were other offices now vacant, of which he would recommend the abolition, and which he would insert in the Bill, and leave it to Parliament to dispose of the whole of them as Parliament might think proper. It would be ridiculous in him to vaunt that he had made a great present to the public. He had done nothing that deserved the name of generosity. He had no right to be generous at the expense of his office. All he said was, that he would go on with his Bill exactly as he had before intended, and leave it to Parliament to deal with the matter as they pleased. Bat it was ne- 744 cessary to fill up the office of Registrar of the Affidavits pro tempore, for otherwise no affidavits could be sworn or in many instances, made use of. The deputy derived his power from the principal, and it was necessary to appoint a principal that the deputy might be empowered to act, and so it happened in this very case. A question arose about an affidavit, the production of which was required in a very important cause, and yet it could not be produced in a valid form without the authority of the Registrar, whose office was at that time vacant. He had consulted the Master of the Rolls and the Vice-Chancellor on the subject, and the result was, that he himself, in whom the office was for the time vested, was obliged to act as the Registrar. But then that was a thing that could not go on, and, therefore, it became necessary to appoint a principal, that the principal might invest the deputy with the proper functional authority. Then the point was, who should he appoint? In the first place, he had a Bill in progress for doing away with the office altogether; in other words the appointment should be merely temporary, to be valid only till the Bill had passed into a law. He, therefore, took especial care to appoint a gentleman over whom he could exercise great influence, and in whom he had implicit confidence, that when he gave the word he would at once vacate the office, without the remotest whisper, or insinuation of a complaint of violation of vested rights, or any other claims set up by the defenders of sinecures and obsolete institutions. He therefore appointed his own brother, who, in accepting the appointment, was put to more inconvenience than, perhaps, his cavillers would be ready to expose themselves to, anxious as they were to preserve immaculate the character of the dispensers of justice in high places. The very vacating his seat-in the House of Commons was in itself no slight inconvenience—the more to be felt, as the fees which he would have to pay on assuming the functions of his office would exceed the probable emoluments of it between the date of his accession and the passing of the measure which would abolish those offices. He should bring forward the Bill in the same manner as he had originally intended. What he was anxious about on the present occasion was, to show that his intention had not been altered one jot by the melancholy 745 event to which he alluded, nor by any notice which had been taken about the matter in any quarter. It was now three weeks since he had intimated his intention to Members of this and the other House of Parliament, and of all mortals in the world, he was the one to whom it cost the least to abide by that intention. In reality, it cost him nothing. So much he thought it right now to say in common justice to himself; and having said this, he did not think it necessary to say more for the present.
§ The Earl of Eldoncould take it upon himself positively to declare, from long professional experience, that the learned Lord could not, without violating his duty to the public, have acted otherwise than he did, in filling up the two appointments to which he had just referred. The learned Lord, however, very much under-rated the importance of those offices: so far from being sinecures, they were, particularly the Registrar's, places of great trust and utility. He assured the House that it was a place of considerable and of very important business, to which he knew that the person who lately held it had paid great attention. The party who filled it was besides responsible in damages for the slightest mistakes, and there were instances on record of damages having been obtained. It was right and proper that it should be so; and, in whatever way the office might hereafter be disposed of, he prayed the noble and learned Lord upon the Woolsack to take care that the officer who held the place should be responsible to the public for his conduct. He had always declared, that till Government otherwise provided for the Chancellors, these reversions were what they had a right to expect. He had so conducted himself whilst in office that he could fairly say that none of his family had received a single farthing to which they were not justly entitled. He agreed with the noble and learned Lord, that the office of Chancellor was very imperfectly and inconveniently remunerated; but his zeal to abolish sinecures would not, he trusted, induce him to curtail the office of that dignity essential in some degree to its public utility.
§ Lord Wynfordquite agreed with the noble and learned Lord, that it was proper to abolish all fees as the payments for Judges, and he had acted upon this principle when he had presided over the Court of Common Pleas. He, however, joined 746 with his noble and learned friend (the Earl of Eldon) in deprecating any alteration in the mode of remunerating the Lord Chancellor, which would lower the dignity of that high officer.
§ Earl Greywas sure that his learned friend's most satisfactory statement would extinguish all unworthy suspicions and insinuations of his having exercised the patronage of his office in a manner aught but worthy of his high character. In justice to his learned friend he was bound to state, that his learned friend had communicated to his colleagues his determination to propose the bill he spoke of, both before and after the vacancies had occurred.
§ The Duke of Wellingtonwas a willing witness to the readiness with which the learned Lord sacrificed the emolument of his office to promote the public service. It was a reproach to Parliament, and indeed reflected somewhat upon the learned Lord's colleagues, that nearly two years had elapsed since the learned Lord brought forward a measure which the Legislature sanctioned, by which he was shorn of a great portion of his official emoluments, without Parliament having made a suitable compensation.
§ Earl Greywas free to admit, that the suggestion of the noble Duke was based upon strict justice, and had only to say, that, in the course of next week, a noble colleague of his would, in another place, submit to Parliament a proposition for rendering to his learned friend the compensation to which he was so eminently entitled. He was glad to find that all parties were unanimous as to the fact that the office of Chancellor was at present very inadequately remunerated.
The Lord Chancellorbegged leave to be most distinctly understood as to be not in the remotest way a party to the measure to which his noble friend had just made allusion. He had never spoken to his colleagues with reference to it, and would not, the rather, as he protested against the doctrine which asserted the necessity of a large salary being annexed to the office of Chancellor. Whenever the intended measure should come before them, he would undertake to satisfy Parliament and the public, that an overgrown salary was by no means essential to securing the services of able and honest men, not only for the office of Chancellor, but of every other high office.
§ Petiton laid on the Table.