The Marquess of Londonderrysaid, it was with considerable embarrassment that he now proceeded to put the questions to the noble Earl (Grey), of which he had given notice, relative to the proceedings of our Government in regard to the affairs of Greece. He was apprehensive that he might fall under the displeasure of the noble Earl, in putting his questions, as he had often done on former occasions. Whenever he attempted to get information by means of questions, he had been told that he was irregular; that he was disorderly: and that he had made no motions, and entered upon discussions without motions, and that, in short, he was altogether irregular. This was the way in which he had been met, when he endeavoured to get information as to the state of public affairs. But he confessed, that it did seem to him, that he was warranted by what appeared on the Journals, to act as he had done, for he there found that it had been usual to put such questions, and that no one had availed himself more of that privilege than the noble Earl himself when' he was in opposition. There was this reason also for questioning the noble Earl, that there never was a government more sparing of the information it gave the Houses of Parliament. That might be, because they had so many weighty matters on their hands, such as their Reform Bills, and all the rest. He, however, had thought it his duty to make inquiries, and although the answers were not always as satisfactory as he could have wished them to be, yet he had gained some information for the public. He had addressed himself to the noble Earl on the subject of the Political Unions, and he had put questions to him, which induced the 506 noble Earl to state his opinion, that they were highly objectionable, and likely to be attended with great mischief; and the noble Earl said, that he hoped the good sense of the people of England would put them down. But these Political Unions were subversive of all good government, and the powers of Government ought to be exerted to put them down. He had questioned the noble Earl also, on the subjects of the proceedings in regard to Belgium, and on that subject he had fortunately gained some information for the public; and yet, even at this day, after all the Protocols that had passed on the subject, the matter appeared as far from being settled as over. Another advantage, which he had gained by his questions, was the disclaimer on the part of the noble Earl, of all participation or approbation of the vituperative remarks that had been made in another place, on the conduct of our ally, the emperor of Russia. He considered, that in calling forth this disclaimer he had done a great deal of service to the noble Earl himself, at a time when his noble relative was about to proceed to Russia. Had it not been for the observations which his questions had elicited from the noble Earl, there might have been some reason to fear that a cordon sanitaire would have been drawn round his mission, and all communication with the Russian authorities prevented. He stated this, merely to show, that however troublesome his questions might have appeared to the noble Earl, he had at least elicited some information by his inquiries. The object that he had in view by the inquiries which he was now about to make, was, to get some further information relative to the proceedings of Government in regard to the affairs of Greece. A rumour prevailed, and, indeed, it had been stated and admitted in another place, that the three Powers, Russia, France and England had made an arrangement, as to who was to be King of Greece, and as to the terms and conditions with which the appointment was to be accompanied. The noble Earl had a great fancy for making kings, and having made a king of Belgium, he was about to make a king of Greece. It had been stated and admitted, that a treaty had been entered into upon this subject, and that this country was to become a guarantee for the third of a loan of 60,000,000 francs, to be advanced to the new king; in other words, had engaged to pay 20,000,000 francs, for the matter would come to that. Taking it for granted, then, that there was 507 some such Convention entered into by the three Powers, he thought it highly desirable that the public should know whether the Convention was confined to the three Powers, or whether our ally, Austria, was a party to the Convention, or approved of it. He wished, therefore, to know from the noble Earl, whether Austria was a party to the treaty, or whether she approved of it; and he wished also to know what benefit Great Britain was to derive from it. It had been said, that it was desirable, with a view to the peace of the civilized world, that Greece should have a regular government; but he wished to know what benefit this country was to derive from setting up a king to reign in Greece, whether the people of Greece were satisfied with the arrangement or not? As for himself, he had always deprecated interference with the affairs of Greece, and had always thought that it would have been better if we had refrained from interference. But times might have altered. He did not know whether Greece was in a disturbed state; but when they had to pay up so large a sum as 1,800,000l. in respect of the Russian Dutch Loan, he did not know why we should be saddled with so large an additional sum, for the benefit of this new fancy king. What benefit could this country derive from the arrangement, more especially if Austria was not a party to it? Why was not Austria a party to it? Austria, the only ally with whom we had no points to contest? But the noble Earl appeared to be ready to sacrifice every thing for his Belle Alliance with France, from which, perhaps, this country might suffer some damage. The noble Earl had abandoned Austria, Turkey, Portugal, Holland, and, in short, all the ancient allies of Great Britain; and his great endeavour appeared to be to undo all that his predecessors had done. How the project in regard to Belgium had turned out they all knew, and the country had a right to know every thing about this Grecian treaty. He wished to know what advantages the noble Earl expected the country to derive from this new arrangement? The noble Earl had been given to prophesy about the advantages to be derived from the changes that had taken place in Europe, but matters had not always turned out as he expected. In a speech made by the noble Earl, on occasion of the glorious revolution of July, the noble Earl had spoken in high terms of that revolution, and of the advantages to be derived 508 from it. The noble Earl said,—'My Lords, if revolution could be rendered necessary in any circumstances, it was rendered necessary by what I must call an unjustifiable attack on the liberties of the people. As an Englishman, owing the benefits which I at present enjoy to a similar measure, similarly provoked, I rejoice in the resistance of the people of France to the attack upon their liberties; and I rejoice in the character of their whole conduct, from the first moment when resistance became necessary to the expulsion of the reigning family. In such a cause resistance was necessary, was noble, and I cannot conceive a more heart-stirring scene, than that of a people, entering upon so holy a contest, with courage Worthy of the cause, and using victory, when achieved, with such unparalleled moderation.'* But what had been the result? Why the result was, that Paris was in a state of siege, that France was upon the point of being revolutionized again, and had been, ever since the event celebrated by the noble Earl, in a continual state of disturbance. He had not, therefore, any great confidence in the noble Earl's creation of kingdoms. He wished that the noble Earl had allowed Europe to remain in the situation in which it was, when he took up the reins of Government. Judging from what had happened, in regard to the interference with the affairs of Belgium, he anticipated no good from our interference with the affairs of Greece. He wished to know from the noble Earl, whether there was any objection to lay on their Lordships' Table copies of the Conferences in regard to the affairs of Greece, and a copy of the Treaty with Bavaria on this subject, and of the stipulations in regard to the Loan? In the noble Earl's speech, to which he had before alluded, the noble Earl had strongly advocated the propriety of acting on the principle of non-intervention. The noble Earl said—' No man can more regret than I do the separation of Flanders from Holland; and in this view I cannot disapprove of the intimation conveyed in his Majesty's Speech, if the mediation alluded to, be conducted in a proper manner, in concert with France, so as to effect a new and amicable settlement of the country. But I imagine that, after the excitement of the animosities which now actuate the inhabitants of the two countries, they cannot again be
* Hansard (third series), vol. i. p. 38.509 united but by means the most vicious and unjust, and by an utter disregard of the principle on which it is the duty of every country to act—that is, the principle of non-interference,'* That was the language the noble Earl had then used, yet had the noble Earl interfered almost more than any other minister whom this country had ever seen, in the affairs of other countries. If the noble Earl wished that his questions should be put on the Journals of the House, he would make a regular motion; but he would prefer it if the noble Earl would please to answer his questions, without calling upon him to make a formal motion. The country at present, was certainly in a most melancholy state, both with respect to the condition of Ireland, and with respect to our relations with foreign countries; and it would be necessary that new abilities and new energies should be infused into the conduct of our Government before matters could be brought into order and properly arranged.
§ Earl GreyThe noble Earl had, as usual, thought proper to preface his present inquiries by a statement of the grounds on which he had been induced to put questions on former occasions, and of the good effects which had resulted from putting these questions, and the noble Earl had complained that on these occasions he had not met with all the courtesy to which he thought himself entitled. He should be sorry, on any occasion, not to treat the noble Earl, or any other noble Lord, with that courtesy which was due to one Member of that House from another, but he had frequently complained that the noble Earl had introduced discussions, on various subjects, without bringing forward any motion; and had asked for explanations which, consistently with a due regard to the public interest, could not be given. These complaints he deemed himself well warranted in making, and he might, without any undue want of courtesy, repeat them on the present occasion. But in venturing to state his opinion as to these irregularities, he hoped that he had abstained from making any offensive personal reflections on any one. It was not his intention to follow the noble Earl through all those topics to which he had thought proper to call their Lordships' attention. The noble Earl had, as usual, deviated from his immediate object, and made
* Hansard (third series), vol. i. p. 40.510 various observations about Belgium, and Austria, and France, and Turkey, and Portugal, and Holland, and had ended with Ireland. The noble Earl said, that it would have been better if he (Earl Grey) had left Europe in the same state in which he had found it. But the noble Earl ought to have recollected, that at the time when he came into office the revolution in France had taken place, and the de facto separation of Belgium from Holland had happened, or at least had gone so far that it was obviously next to impossible to re-unite them. The Ministers might or might not have acted wisely in regard to these matters, but the evils did in fact exist at the time when they came into office, and ought not, therefore, to be laid to their account. The noble Earl had alluded to a speech of his on the subject of the late French Involution, and talked of the prophecies contained in it. Now he was not aware that in the speech there was a word of prophecy, but he had given his opinion of that great revolution, and nothing more. Whether that opinion was right or wrong, or whether it were wise or prudent to have openly expressed that opinion at the time, were questions on which he did not mean then to enter, he had, however, expressed no sentiment on that occasion, of which he was at present in the least ashamed, and he said no word which he was at all disposed to deny. Such was his opinion then, whether right or wrong, or whether it was wise or prudent to express it, and such was his opinion now. With respect to Greece, which was the subject to which he understood the noble Earl's question more particularly to refer, the noble Earl said, that he (Earl Grey) was very fond of making Kings; be that as it might, with regard to Greece, at least, the example had been set him, and he had only done as had been done before. There was one sentiment uttered by the noble Earl, in which he was disposed to agree with him. The noble Earl had said, that he had deprecated interference in the affairs of Greece from the beginning. That was his (Earl Grey's) opinion, and he had said so at the time. But the interference took place, and the consequence was war with our Turkish ally, the destruction of the Turkish fleet, and the separation of Greece from Turkey. That interference might have been wise, or it might not, but as far as the present Ministers were concerned, they were forced to look at 511 the circumstances as they found them, and endeavour to provide a government for Greece, and to place that country in such a situation as to enable it to preserve peace within its own dominions, and through preserving peace at home, taking away motives and pretexts for breaking the general peace of the civilized world. It was with that view he presumed that the late Government had agreed with the other Powers to place Prince Leopold of Saxe Cobourg on the throne of Greece. It was obvious, then, that if a sovereign was now to be provided for Greece, he must be furnished with the same pecuniary means as were to have been afforded to Prince Leopold in case he had accepted the throne of Greece, and it was only just that Great Britain should now, as then, guarantee one-third of the same sum of 60,000,000 of francs. That was felt to be necessary at the time when the Grecian throne was offered to Prince Leopold, and if so, it was not the less necessary now. The noble Earl had evinced, on various occasions, that he was a diligent reader of the journals of the day, and he therefore must have been aware that the affairs of Greece had fallen into a lamentable state of confusion and anarchy, threatening all those consequences which the past interference was undertaken to prevent; and then the question came to be, whether, considering all the circumstances, it was not the duty of the Government of this country still to rescue Greece from that situation, if possible. The Ministers did think that they ought to endeavour to provide a government for Greece, and he had no hesitation in stating that the choice of the three Powers had fallen on Prince Otho of Bavaria, who had been spoken of in the time of former Ministers. He had no hesitation in stating that a Convention had been entered into on that subject, and that it was correct that a Treaty had been agreed to, containing a stipulation for guaranteeing pecuniary aid to the amount mentioned. By the Treaty, if sanctioned by Parliament, Government had agreed to guarantee the payment of the third part of the 60,000,000 of francs; the other Powers guaranteeing the payment of the rest. Whether that was justifiable or not would be proper matter for discussion when the Treaty and the documents relating to it should be laid on the Table, and the subject brought regularly and properly under consideration. On that subject he need 512 say nothing more at present, than that every possible security had been taken against eventual loss. If peace and good order should be restored to Greece, the revenues of that country were amply sufficient to pay the interest of the debt and the sinking fund for the liquidation of the principal. There was, therefore, very little reason to apprehend any eventual loss, unless anarchy and confusion should continue to prevail in Greece. The question was simply this—whether this country was not bound in justice, considering all the circumstances, to endeavour to establish a government in Greece? Whether the original interference was right or wrong it was in vain now to discuss. However laudable and excellent in themselves the feelings might be which prompted the interference, such feelings did not always form sufficient ground for political measures. The interference, however, had taken place, and was almost universally applauded by all classes; and it did therefore appear to be the duty of this country to rescue the affairs of Greece from the present anarchy and confusion, and attempt to establish a regular government in that country. Did the noble Earl think, that after the stipulations that had been made with regard to Prince Leopold, any other terms could have been adopted on the present occasion, without leaving Greece a prey to anarchy and confusion? He would only add, that the Protocol of the Treaty would be produced, and laid before Parliament, as the Government could not act upon it without the sanction of Parliament; he answered, therefore, that this protocol would be produced; that it would have been produced before, had it not been desirable that all the documents relating to the Treaty should be laid before Parliament at the same time. More he need not say till the papers should be laid before their Lordships; but in the mean time he begged leave to say, that this was no new policy introduced by the present Government.
§ The Earl of Aberdeenwished to make a few observations on the answers which the noble Earl had given. It was true that the late Ministry had made up its mind to propose some arrangement on this subject; but in order to judge correctly of their conduct, it was necessary to see the course of the proceedings, and to attend to all the circumstances connected with it. He at present gave no opinion 513 as to the treaty in question. The best time for that would be when the nature of the stipulations, the security, and the whole subject should come regularly before them. It did not, however, by any means follow, that the present arrangement was good, merely because a similar arrangement had been made before. With respect to the pecuniary aid to be allowed to Prince Leopold, that Prince had lost no time in applying to his illustrious friend for pecuniary assistance, and his noble friend had answered, Great Britain would not afford any pecuniary assistance. But it had been agreed that it was necessary that the Prince should be supported by a military force from some foreign country, and it was soon felt that to furnish a British force for this purpose would be liable to strong and well-founded objections. It was felt, that it would be inconvenient to send a British force to act with French and Russian troops in this service, and it was resolved that a loan should be negotiated to enable the Prince to provide Swiss troops, or the troops of some other foreign country; and it was proposed to guarantee a loan for this purpose to the amount of 500,000l. This, however, was objected to on the part of the late Government, but before the matter had been finally decided upon, the Prince went to Paris, and there agreed with France and Russia for a loan of 60,000,000 of francs, which the three Powers were to guarantee each to the extent of a third. On these terms the Prince insisted, and on his intimating that he would not accept the government of Greece without this sum, and when his adhesion to the agreement was found absolutely to depend upon the concurrence of the Government of this country in these terms, the Ministers most reluctantly assented, in order to deprive the Prince of any pretext for refusing to fulfil his part of the arrangement. They therefore declared their intention, but there was no treaty, and no stipulation: and he had little doubt, even then, that Prince Leopold would find some other opportunity of breaking off the negotiation. These suspicions were unfortunately well founded, and the letter of Count Capo d'Istria afforded the Prince the pretext which he wanted; of that he immediately availed himself, and the Ministers were deprived of the advantage of placing one who might be considered as a British Prince on the throne of Greece. But after these transactions 514 with Prince Leopold, they had declared that they were perfectly clear of the whole affair, and that they would give no pecuniary assistance in any arrangement that might be subsequently adopted, unless the prince to be chosen to fill the throne of Greece should be completely and entirely satisfactory to Great Britain. He could not consider that the choice of Prince Otho of Bavaria was satisfactory. The former Ministers had made no proposal with respect to him, for he was at that time a minor, not more than fourteen years of age, and it was considered that if he were appointed, he would for some time require constant superintendence. The minority of the Prince must necessarily perpetuate the interference of the three great Powers; an interference, the advantage of discontinuing which as soon as possible must be generally acknowledged. One objection to Prince Otho, therefore, was his youth. Another was, that he was a Catholic. That appeared to his Majesty's late Government to be a circumstance very injurious. Their Lordships were, perhaps, aware that only about a fifth, or a sixth of the population of Greece were Roman Catholics. Their Lordships were also perhaps aware, that the hostility of the Greek Church to the Roman Catholics was greater than its hostility to Turks or to Jews. It was, therefore, the opinion of his Majesty's late Government, that the circumstance of Prince Otho's being a Catholic was one which much increased the objection to his being selected. Being a Catholic, he could not without endangering his salvation, in the opinion of all Catholics, change to Protestantism, and it was evident that his religion would be opposed to that of the great majority of his subjects. He professed himself at a loss to understand why his Majesty's Government had not settled this question eighteen months ago. They were now, however, about to send this Prince, still a minor, to Greece. How, under such circumstances, the Government of that country was to be conducted, he knew not; but it was manifest that it must be by a continued interference on the part of the three great Powers, an interference which, he repeated, was deprecated on all sides, and ought to be terminated as soon as possible.
§ Earl Greycould have wished that the noble Earl had manifested the same abstinence in relation to other parts of the question, as he had displayed with respect 515 to the guarantee for a loan to the new sovereignty of Greece. If there wanted anything to show the inconvenience of discussions like the present, it was to be found in the conduct of the noble Earl, who had very inappositely gone into all the objections to the selection of Prince Otho. It would not be proper for him (Earl Grey) to take that occasion to go into the motives that had determined the choice of the allies. The noble Earl opposite would not deny the difficulty of the subject; it would seem that the late Ministry felt all its difficulties, and had not been able to fall on any plan, as far as he was aware, after Prince Leopold had declined the sovereignty of Greece, to place a monarch on the throne of that country, though a considerable time elapsed between Prince Leopold's refusal and their own retirement from office. He did not deny, that there might be objections and difficulties as to the present selection—the minority of the Prince was one difficulty—but the question was, whether, in a choice of difficulties, Government had not taken the best course. He must express his deep regret that the noble Earl could not abstain from throwing out a reflection against an illustrious personage, now at the head of the Government of a neighbouring nation—a reflection, too, which he would take upon himself to say was equally unmerited and unjust. The noble Earl said, that it mattered not whether the difficulty relating to pecuniary succours had been overcome or not, because he thought Prince Leopold would easily find other modes of escaping from his engagement. He could take upon himself to state, from some knowledge of the facts, but more from personal knowledge of the character of the distinguished individual alluded to, that it was impossible he should have so acted. It would appear rather an extraordinary ground of vindication, if the noble Earl should now say, that when he and his noble colleagues agreed to the pecuniary guarantee, they did so because they were sure it would be rejected. The noble Earl said, that the pecuniary guarantee was to be in lieu of military assistance; but, if he recollected right, it was in order to raise funds for the general aid and establishment of the new Government. Further, if he did not quite forget, this was not a mere proposal, as the noble Earl now wished to have it believed, but there were actually articles agreed on as to the particulars of the loan. He also thought, that the limitation of the loan to military succours 516 had been objected to, and that it was allowed that it should be applied generally to the support of the Government, which was, indeed, only reasonable. He had merely to add, that, when the treaty came under consideration, he should be prepared to argue, that assistance was more required at present, in behalf of any government to be formed in Greece, than it was when the noble Earl and his friends consented to grant it.
The Marquess of Londonderryobserved, that the noble Earl had not said whether Austria was a party to the treaty. He must even express his intention of opposing the guarantee, whenever the subject should be brought under the consideration of the House.
§ The Duke of Wellingtonadmitted, that the late Government did acquiesce in a guarantee for a pecuniary loan to Greece, on its being made a sine qua non by Prince Leopold; but added, that at the time this was done, a notion was entertained that the Prince would not accept the appointment which he had consented to take, and which, indeed, he had previously expressed himself anxious to obtain. A further correspondence took place as to the loan, and when Ministers had agreed to his terms. Prince Leopold produced a letter from Capo d'Istrias, and upon its contents refused the office. He had no wish to throw any imputation on the Prince, but there were the papers for anybody to read, and convince himself of the fact now stated. The late Ministers were no parties to the selection of Prince Otho; on the contrary, he was a person to whose appointment they had objected, as appeared on the face of the protocols, and the objection on the ground of his minority existed at the present moment, though not to such an extent as it did, a year and a-half having elapsed since it was first made. He objected to the arrangement, because the interests of this country were essentially altered in the Mediterranean. His Majesty had essential duties to perform in the Adriatic. When he saw France remaining in possession of Algiers, notwithstanding the provisions of a treaty, and when he saw what was done at Ancona, he must say, that the interests of this country had been grossly neglected in that quarter.
The Earl of Haddingtondid not mean to enter into the question of a sovereign for Greece, for the discussion of which he was not qualified; and if he were, that did not appear to him to be a fit time to discuss it. 517 He would confine himself to one topic, which had been incidentally introduced. However they differed on other points, noble Lords on both sides of the House had concurred in condemning the policy which dictated the original interference with the affairs of Greece. He had waited in the hope that some member of Mr. Canning's Administration would have vindicated his memory from that charge. But as that had not been done, he rose to say, that, in his humble opinion, if ever there was an interference justified by considerations of sound policy and humanity, it was the interference with the affairs of Greece embodied in the Treaty of the 6th of July, 1827; and that if there still existed any hope of a final and satisfactory arrangement of the affairs of Greece, that hope owed its existence to the interference to which he had adverted.
§ Viscount Goderichdid not think he could be fairly charged with a dereliction of duty, or an omission of respect for the memory of Mr. Canning, because he had not risen to vindicate the policy of that lamented statesman, at a moment when the question as to the policy of the Treaty of the 6th of July was not before the House. At a proper time and occasion, he should be always ready to defend the policy of that treaty, and he had frequently declared his willingness to do so. No fault could be found with his noble friend at the head of the Government, for stating that he had disapproved of the interference originally, it being necessary to his argument to mention the fact.
§ Earl Greysaid, with regard to the state of things in the Mediterranean, that would be a proper subject for discussion when the question came fairly before the House; but it could not be expected that he should enter into it at that time. He might observe, however, with respect to any inconvenience supposed to result from the occupation of Algiers by the French, that the fault was not attributable to the present Government. But probably noble Lords would find that there existed no foundation for their fears. They had heard, that a French army once in Belgium would never retire; but noble Lords were mistaken—it did retire. The noble Duke said, that the French had entered into an engagement to evacuate Algiers [the Duke of Wellington expressed his dissent], he certainly understood the noble Duke to say, that France remained in possession of Algiers, notwithstanding the provisions of a treaty. He certainly had not been able 518 to find any engagement, or treaty, to evacuate Algiers in an authentic form. If such a document existed, he would thank the noble Duke to point it out. As to Greece, whatever might be the inconveniences of interference, now that we had commenced, the evil would be much greater if we abandoned further interference, and allowed the matter to fall into the hands of some other country.
§ The Duke of Wellingtonexplained, that he had said, that the French government had entered into certain engagements on taking possession of Algiers, which engagements it had not since performed. The news of the taking of Algiers arrived a few days after the Paris Revolution, and the late Government had no opportunity of requiring the fulfilment of the engagements, but that there were such engagements to us and other Powers he could prove.
§ The Earl of Aberdeenadded, that the French revolutionary government had agreed to fulfil those engagements.