Lords Sitting of 12 July 1832

MINUTES.
Bill. Read a second time:—Union of Parishes.
Petitions presented. By Lord KENYON, from the Parish of Marylebone, for an extension of the time for Voters to Register themselves under the Reform Bill.—By the Earl of RADNOR, from two Places in Ireland; and by Lord PLUNKETT, from the National Political Union; and from the Presbyterian Synod of Munster,—in favour of the Government Plan of Education (Ireland);—and by Lord ORIEL, from one Place in Ireland, against that Plan.—By the Earl of RADNOR, from three Places in Ireland;—by the Marquess of SLIGO, from Cloonacool, and by a NOBLE LORD, from Doneraile,—against Tithes.

REFORM ACT. QUALIFICATION.
Lord Kenyonpresented a Petition, very numer-

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ously signed, from the inhabitants of the parish of Marylebone. The petitioners prayed for an extension of the period fixed for the payment of the parochial rates, in order to give a qualification under the Reform Bill. In the extensive and populous parish of Marylebone, the parochial taxes were paid every half year. The Act of Parliament required that the taxes due at the 6th of April, should be all paid up before the 30th of July. Now as there would be 10,000 voters in Marylebone, it was scarcely possible that the parish books could be made up so as to show who had or had not been unable or unwilling to pay the taxes in the time specified; and the consequence would be, if the present rule was persisted in, that a number of persons must be disfranchised for the next election.
The Earl of Radnorwas of opinion the result apprehended could hardly be contemplated as likely to arise. If the parties paid the last demand made upon them for taxes, he thought it would be sufficient.
Lord Kenyonsaid, certainly it was next to impossible that the books of such a parish as Marylebone should be made up in time.
Petition to lie on the Table.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM—BILL FOR SCOTLAND—REPORT.
The Report of the Committee on the Reform of Parliament (Scotland) Bill was brought up.
Several verbal Amendments were agreed to.
The Earl of Haddingtonwished to propose an Amendment to the first clause, though it was not his intention to press it to a division, his object being merely to have his opinions entered on the Journals of the House. He begged, therefore, in the first clause, to move, where these words occur, "there shall be fifty-three Representatives returned for Scotland," that the number fifty-three be struck out, for the purpose of inserting these words—" sixty-one;" and that, in the following line, where these words occur—" of whom thirty shall be for the several conjoined shires or stewartries hereinafter named," the word "thirty" be struck out, for the purpose of inserting the words "thirty-eight."
Amendment negatived.
The noble Earl moved, that in the second clause, which provides "enumeration of counties hereafter to return Members severally or jointly," the word "one," third line, be struck out, for the purpose of inserting the word "two," striking out the words "combined shires, or parts of shires."
Amendment negatived.
The Lord Chancellorhad an amendment to propose applying to the clause in page 5, with respect to the qualification of county voters. His noble friend seemed to consider that great difficulty would arise respecting the construction of the words "of the yearly value of 10 l., and shall actually yield or be capable of yielding that value to the claimant." In order to remove all doubts on the subject, he moved to add these words—"on an average of the last ten years."
The Earl of Haddingtonbegged, before that Amendment was put, to move, that this clause be omitted altogether, for the purpose of introducing three other clauses in its place. The first was as follows:—"And be it enacted that, from and after the passing of this Act, every person, not subject to any legal incapacity, shall be entitled to be registered as hereinafter directed, thereafter to vote at any election for a shire in Scotland, who, when the sheriff proceeds to consider his claim for registration in the present or in any future year, shall have been for a period of not less than six calendar months next previous to the last day of August in the present or the last day of July in the future year, the owner (whether he has made up his titles, or is infeft, or not) of the dominium utile of any lands within the said shire, provided the subject or subjects on which he so claims shall be, or be entitled to be, rated in the cess-books of such shire, at the yearly sum of 5l. Scots of valued rent or upwards. Provided always, that when any property, which would entitle the owner to be registered and to vote as above, shall come to any person, within the said period of six months, by inheritance, marriage, marriage-settlement, or mortis causa disposition, or by appointment to any place or office, such person shall be entitled to be registered on the first occasion of making up the lists of voters, as hereinafter provided next following such accession or acquisition. Provided always, and be it enacted, that it shall be in the power of the Commissioners of Supply in any shire in Scotland, upon the summary application of the proprietor of any lands, upon which a claim to vote shall be made under this Act, and which shall not be separately valued in the cess-books of such shire, to take an account of the value of the lands upon which such claim is made, and proceed in manner as at present practised in cases of divisions of cumulo valuations, and to decide upon the claim so made as aforesaid,

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and to ascertain the valued rent of the lands upon which the claim is made, upon, the evidence and according to the practice usual in cases of divisions of cumulo valuations within Scotland." The third clause was framed in the same manner, and went to give the right of voting in respect of houses. The qualification, in the Bill as it stood, was 10 l., which was much too low. He had, therefore, fixed the amount at 15 l, provided such house be so rated in the books of the Commissioners for the Affairs of Taxes. Such were the Amendments he proposed on the county qualification clause, thinking that they would give the franchise to a most valuable constituency, and the right of voting would be separated as respected land and houses. It was not his intention to press this Amendment to a division; but only to have it inserted on their Lordships' Journals.
The Amendment negatived. The original Amendment (proposed by the Lord Chancellor), and several verbal Amendments on other clauses, agreed to.
On the Clause relating to Shetland and Orkney,
The Lord Chancellorstated, that he had turned the objections to this part of the Bill in his mind, but he had been unable to devise any Amendment, though he had no doubt that his noble friend, the Postmaster General, would afford every facility possible to communicate between the two islands. He wished, however, to observe, that the writ from Orkney was, by the present law, returnable at any time within fifty days from the date of its issue.
The Duke of Buccleughasked if the Bill excluded parish schoolmasters from voting?
The Lord Chancellorreplied, it certainly did not; and those who supposed it did, neither comprehended its language, nor the intention of its authors.
The Earl of Haddingtonhad next an Amendment to propose relating to the qualification of Members. The Bill had come up from the other House without any clause establishing such a qualification, either as to counties or boroughs. The Bill originally contained a clause fixing a qualification for both classes; but the qualification for borough Members having been strongly opposed in the other House, was withdrawn; and, at the same time, the attempt to fix a qualification for county Members was, without any reason, in his opinion, withdrawn also. With what consistency, however, could they maintain a
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qualification for Members in England and Ireland, and, at the same time, declare that there should be none for Scotch Members. If the qualification were good in the one case, it must be of equal value in the other. He was informed, indeed, that the insertion of a clause to establish such a qualification would be an invasion of the privileges of the other House of Parliament, inasmuch as it would be considered a money clause. He, therefore, could not expect that the proposition which he was about to submit should be adopted by their Lordships, and he only moved it with the view of having it entered on their Lordships' Journals. With respect to the qualification for Members of boroughs, he knew that in Scotland great objection existed to it. Persons who opposed the Bill, objected to the borough qualification as a new thing. He, however, was of opinion, that a person who proposed himself as a candidate for a borough, should be obliged to prove that he [possessed property to some amount, if not in land, yet in the funds, or lent upon mortgage, or in some other way. What he was about to propose, however, was, a clause compelling county Members to have a qualification in land. In establishing such a qualification, they would act consistently; for though there had never been a qualification in Scotland for borough Members, there had always existed one for the Members for counties. This qualification, too, was the possession of a certain amount of landed property. If, therefore, they adhered to the former practice, in having no qualification for borough Members, they ought, in consistency, to conform to it, by retaining a qualification for county Members. He should, therefore, move, that at the end of the clause relative to the eldest sons of Scotch Peers, the following words be inserted:—" And be it enacted, that from and after the passing of this Act, no person, except the eldest son or heir presumptive of any Peer, shall be eligible to represent any county in Scotland, who shall not be the proprietor of a landed or heritable estate, in some part of Great Britain or Ireland, of the value of 500 l. a-year, or the heir-apparent of such proprietor."
The Earl of Roseberrysaid, that since the Union, the qualification for Scotch Members had been more bona fide than that for English Members, which, in fact, was no qualification at all. In Scotland no person could be elected who was not qualified as an elector. If the qualifica-

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tion proposed by the noble Earl were adopted, the same results would be produced as in England. It would be an illusory qualification, not tending to raise the character of Parliament. Looking at the whole question, he thought it would be better to leave the Bill as it stood.
The Earl of Camperdownobjected to the Motion, on the same ground as his noble friend, and certainly should oppose it more strenuously if he did not understand that the intention of the noble Earl (the Earl of Haddington) was merely to place his opinions upon the Journals of the House.
The Earl of Mintobegged to inform his noble friend, that he had represented a Scotch county in which he had not a single acre of land.
The Earl of Haddingtonremembered that fact. He was still of opinion, that it was incumbent on Parliament to take measures that no county or city should be represented by a demagogue, working on the passions of the people.
Amendment negatived.
The Duke of Hamiltonexpressed his regret that the Bill did not contain a clause to exempt the clergy of the Church of Scotland from voting at elections. He feared that by interfering in political matters, their attention would be diverted from those duties which ought exclusively to occupy them; and it would be almost impossible that they should not be brought into collision with some of their parishioners. Parliament would have best consulted the comfort of the clergy themselves, and the benefit of the country at large, by debarring them from the right of voting.
The Lord Chancellorhad stated, on a former night, what were the reasons which induced him to allow this Bill to pass, without inserting a clause to exempt, not to exclude, that most learned, pious, and excellent body of men, the clergy of the Church of Scotland, from exercising a right which might have the effect of involving them in political discussions. His only reason for not proposing an amendment upon the subject was, that to have done so might have been considered as affixing to the Scotch clergy a sort of stigma; and, from the communications which he had had with members of the body, he was certain that it would have been so considered.
The Earl of Haddingtonnext proposed the substitution of another schedule A, for that which stood in the Bill, as follows—" That of the thirty Members hereafter to
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be returned to Parliament by the shires of Scotland, two shall always be returned by each of the shires enumerated in the schedule A hereunto annexed; one by each of the separate shires, or parts of shires, enumerated and described in schedule B hereunto annexed, and one by each two of the combined shires, or parts of shires, enumerated in schedule C hereunto annexed."
Amendment negatived.
The noble Earlalso proposed, that in schedule E, in the fourth district of burghs, consisting of Inverbervie, Montrose, Aber-brothwick, Brechin, and Forfar, Stonehaven be added. As the Bill was originally framed by the Government, this town was placed in this district. Why it was removed he knew not. It was a sea-port, with a flourishing trade, containing between 3,000 and 4,000 inhabitants, whose interests were identified with those of the other burghs composing that district. It would be but justice to both the county of Kincardine and the town of Stonehaven itself, that it should be added to them for the purpose of returning with them one Representative to Parliament. He begged to propose to add Stonehaven to the burghs contained in the fourth district.
Amendment negatived.
The Duke of Buccleughsaid, that the town of Oban had been inserted in the twelfth district of burghs, without any reason, further than that it was said to be a flourishing and prosperous town. On that ground several other towns—such as Stonehaven—were justly entitled to have that privilege extended to them. He moved that Kilmarnock be taken out of No. 8, and added to the Ayr district.
Amendment negatived.
The Duke of Buccleughmoved, that Oban be omitted. It had been very improperly smuggled in.
The Earl of Roseberrydid not agree with the noble Duke in his view of the relative claims of Stonehaven and Oban. Kincardine, in which Stonehaven was situated, was a very small county; and Stonehaven was more of a county-town than any other in the shire. If it were taken from the county by placing it in a district of burghs, there would then be hardly any constituency left for the county itself. The county of Argyle, in which Oban was situate, was a very large county; so much so, indeed, that it was originally contemplated to dismember it, and annex a portion of it to the Isle of Bute. Oban, too, was a town in an improving state,

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which was not the case with Stonehaven.
Amendment negatived.
Several other verbal Amendments in the remaining Clauses were made, and the Report agreed to.
Bill to be read a third time.

APPELLATE JURISDICTION—ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS' BILL.
On the Order of the Day for the Third Reading of this Bill being moved.
The Marquess of Westmeathopposed the further progress of this Bill, from a conviction that it was not only a useless, and, therefore, a needless, exertion of legislative power, but that it was also highly dissatisfactory to those who understood its nature, and altogether delusive to those who had not studied its details.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that the Court of Delegates, to which this Bill referred, had certainly been constituted originally by the issue of a mere Commission from the King, under which their juridical and appellate judicial functions were exercised; but it had existed for so long a period, ever since the middle of the sixteenth century, in fact, that the abolition of a Court which had existed for so long a time, demanded somewhat more formality than the mere cessation of the issue of a Commission from the Crown, and for that reason it had been deemed proper that an Act of the Legislature should sanction that act of abolition. It was for this purpose that the Bill was framed.
Lord Wynfordbegged to call the attention of his noble and learned friend on the Woolsack, particularly to one improvement recommended by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. It was well known that at present Bishops were subjected to great expense and delay in bringing clergymen to account for any misconduct of which they might be guilty, and that, in consequence of such expense and delay, individuals, who were really a disgrace to the church, had been enabled to retain their situation for a length of time. Such cases, he was delighted to say, were very few; but, at the same time, he hoped that the recommendation of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners Would be attended to; and that another Court would be constituted for the purpose, which would be productive of less expense and delay than the present.
The Marquess of Westmeathsaid, that as this Bill was not to come into operation until February, there was ample time to prepare a really efficient measure; and he,
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therefore, saw no advantage to be gained by sending the Bill to the Commons in its present loose and slovenly state.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that the Bill was neither loose nor slovenly, but, on the contrary, was very ably and carefully drawn, and very efficient for its purpose. It was necessary to pass the Bill now, in order that parties might be spared the expenses to which they would otherwise be subject, and that the Privy Council, by having notice previous to the operation of the Bill, might be enabled to make the necessary preparations for its administration.
Bill read a third time, and passed.