Lords Sitting of 27 January 1832

MINUTES.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of the Marquis of LANSDOWN, the number of Clergy resident, or non-resident for the year 1829, and for Copies of Instructions given by the Home Secretary, and Reports received by him with reference to Reform.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of COVENTRY, from the Inhabitants of Worcester, complaining of the distressed state of the Glove Trade, and praying that the Importation of Foreign Gloves be prohibited:—By the Duke of DEVONSHIRE, from the Inhabitants of Kinsale, for Reform:—By a NOBLE LORD, from Inhabitants of Langton, for an alteration in the Beer Act, and for the abolition of Slavery, from the Inhabitants of Lewis, Ashton-under-Lyne, Were-ham, Cefnellaur, and Atherstone; the Curate and Parishioners of Killishee; the Congregation assembling in St. Michael's Established Church, Ashton-under-Lyne; of the Minister and Congregation of the United Secession Church, Grimsby, Arbroath, and Annan; of the Minister, Elders, and Members, of the United Associate Congregation in Auchtergaven; of the Minister and Elders of the Presbytery of Lorn; of Protestant Calvinistic Methodists, at Tregaron, and Llanafan; of the Methodist Congregation at Altrinehame; of Wesleyan Methodists, at Ebenezer Chapel, Carnarvon, Aberton, Weeley, Tyddyn, and St. Peter's Port, Guernsey; of Protestant Dissenters, of Chepstowe, Union Street Chapel, Southwark; Bethel Chapel, Cemeus, Llanbadrig; Aldringham, Avebury, Little Alie Street, Goodman's Fields, Abersycham, Eynsford, Tabor, Thorne and Halfield, Saron Llanfechel, Castleford, Kellington, Darrington, Astley, Featherstone, Aldborough, Skelbrook, Knighton, Arncliffe, Abury, Beckham, Cheshunt, Ashbocking, Ashfield-cum-Thorpe, Badsworth, Askan Bryan, and Straddishall. Ordered to lie on the Table.

ARBITRATION BILL.
Lord Tenterden Lord Tenterden moved the Second Reading of the Arbitration Bill.
Lord Ellenboroughhoped, that in each of the Law Reform Bills a clause would be inserted, extending the advantages of those Bills to British India.
Lord Tenterdenthought, that it would be better to effect the object desired by the noble Lord, by a separate Act referring to each of the other Acts, at the close of the Session, if it was considered adviseable to extend these Acts to our Indian possessions.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, the noble and learned Lord had anticipated his wishes, and he was further of opinion that it would be desirable, at the end of each Session, that such Acts as had been passed during the Session, which had reference to the improvement of the law, should be considered by persons to be appointed for the purpose,

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in order to determine to what extent they might be applicable to the colonies. He knew many individuals who would be ready to assist in the work, and to supply such further information as might be necessary to the better understanding of the affairs of India.
Bill read a second time.

TITHES (IRELND.
Lord Ellenboroughbegged leave to ask the noble Marquis whether there would be any objection to lay before the House, from time to time, the evidence produced before the Committee appointed to inquire into tithes in Ireland.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, that he would call the attention of the Committee to the noble Lord's suggestion.
Lord Kingbegged to be permitted to observe, in reference to what had passed on this subject last evening, that the noble and learned Lord (Wynford) was quite right in his observations relating to the collection of tithes in Ireland. The law was similar in both countries, and it was not considered a conspiracy for three persons to give notice for them to be taken in kind. At the same time although the law was interpreted in that way at present, yet some years ago the practice had prevailed which he had reprobated.
Lord Wynfordhad also made further inquiries into the subject, and he had reason to believe that such a practice had been pursued in a very inferior Court.
The Earl of Rosslynobserved, that he spoke with great hesitation, but, to the best of his recollection a case had occurred many years since, in the county of Cork, in which a great many persons had given notice to the collector to take the tithe of potatoes in kind, at the same time, on the same day, a circumstance which rendered it impossible to collect the tithe at all. The consequence was, that the Parliament of Ireland passed a statute declaring such an act a conspiracy. He was ready, however, to admit that a great distinction ought to be made as to the number of persons giving notice, twelve persons giving notice at the same time ought not to be considered as acting in concert although 1200 so acting would certainly supply prima facie evidence of a conspiracy.

MUNICIPAL POLICE.
Lord Ellenboroughwas desirous to learn of the noble
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Lord, the Secretary for the Home Department, whom he saw in his place, whether his Majesty's Ministers intended to bring under the consideration of Parliament any plan for the improvement of the Municipal Police, according to the recommendation of his Majesty, in his last gracious, Speech from the Throne? Certainly something should be done to prevent the recurrence of such disgraceful disturbances as had occurred at Bristol and Nottingham.
Viscount Melbournesaid, that the subject was one of great difficulty, and had occupied the anxious attention of his Majesty's Ministers. A measure was now under consideration, which would be submitted to Parliament as soon as it could be matured.
Lord Ellenboroughwould only observe, in reference to the noble Viscount's remark that his Majesty's Ministers had departed from the usual course, by recommending, in the King's Speech to Parliament, a measure, respecting which they themselves had not made up their minds.

RECIPROCITY SYSTEM.
Viscount Strangfordsaid, that he had given notice a few nights ago, that he would move for the return of papers connected with the great commercial question of the Reciprocity System; but he found that he should not be able to bring forward that Motion until he should have in his possession certain other papers, for which he did not mean to move just now. But he wished to inquire of the noble Lords opposite, whether there would be any objection on the part of his Majesty's Ministers to lay before the House a return showing the "Several sums of money which have been paid out of the Treasury, from the 1st of January 1826 to the 1st of January 1832, to corporate bodies, or to private individuals, having a right under Charters to levy duties on foreign shipping?" He found that such a return was necessary before he could bring the question of the Reciprocity System fully before their Lordships; because the Ministers having engaged, by treaty with certain foreign states, to admit the vessels of those states into the British ports on payment of the same dues that were paid by British vessels, were unable to fulfil their engagement otherwise than by compensating, out of the Treasury, corporations and individuals who had the right by charter

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to exact from vessels into certain ports double the duty paid by British vessels. He had been given to understand that a large sum of money was abstracted annually from the Public Purse on this account, and that the sum was increasing with the increasing influx of foreign shipping into our ports. It was, therefore, necessary to ascertain the amount paid from the Treasury in that way, before our gain or loss, by the system of Reciprocity, could be accurately estimated.
Lord Aucklandwas not aware of any objection to the return desired by the noble Lord; but he thought that the best way would be for the noble Lord to give notice of a motion, and reserve his speech till he brought it forward.
Lord Ellenboroughremembered that similar returns had been presented three years ago, and the practice did not at that time appear to him to be injurious to the public. He therefore thought it would be desirable to connect the returns received at that time with those now required by his noble friend, and to bring the information up to the latest period.
Lord Aucklandsaid, he should be happy to act on the noble Lord's suggestion, and would bring down the information to the latest possible period, with the most perfect conviction of a satisfactory result.