Lords Sitting of 17 February 1832

MINUTES.
Bills. Brought up and read a first time; Cholera Prevention (Scotland).
Petitions presented. By Lord FOLEV, from the Glove Manufacturers in Hereford, against the Importation of Foreign Gloves. By a NOBLE LORD, from the Inhabitants of Chesterfield, praying that the Hours of Employing Children in Factories may be limited.

CHOLERA MORBUS—MEASURES OF PRECAUTION.
The Marquis of Lansdown, in moving the second reading of the Cholera Morbus Prevention Bill, said, that he did not deem it necessary to trouble their Lordships with any lengthened observations as to the measure in question. It had been brought forward for the purpose of putting an end to all doubts with regard to the powers possessed by the Privy Council, and though he had the satisfaction to state that in those places most likely to be affected by the disorder, the greatest readiness had
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been evinced on the part of the Overseers, the parochial authorities, and the inhabitants generally, to comply with the regulations and instructions issued by the Privy Council, even where they might be considered as overstepping the limits of the law, yet it was deemed right to vest the specific powers which this Bill contained, in the Privy Council, in order that it might enforce the adoption of its regulations in any parish that might refuse to do so—a case which he hoped would not arise. He would take this opportunity to say, that it had been the object of his Majesty's Government not to excite any unnecessary alarm abroad on the subject of this disorder, feeling as the Ministers did, and as he was sure their Lordships felt, that it would be most desirable to avoid, as much as possible, exciting any alarm, not merely on account of the bad effects which it would produce to individuals, but also on account of the diminution of labour, the interruption of commerce, and the variety of other evil consequences that would arise, and which would be in themselves calculated much to aggravate and increase all the evils of the disease. Those considerations constituted a sufficient motive for the Government, and for their Lordships, not to go a single step beyond the adoption of such measures as were really necessary to meet the emergency. Such, too, had been the motives which had restrained Government from calling the attention of Parliament to this subject at an earlier period. While, therefore, it was the determination of his Majesty's Government that there should be no deception on the subject—that not a single fact should he concealed, and that every thing that occurred should be fully known, both in this and in other countries—he was sure that their Lordships would quite concur with them in thinking that all unnecessary alarm ought to be carefully discountenanced, and that nothing should be done calculated to produce those consequences to which he had already alluded, and which would constitute a greater evil te the country than even the spreading of the Cholera itself.
Bill read a second time, and, on the motion of the noble Marquis, the standing orders were suspended, and the House went into Committee on the Bill.
On the motion of the Marquis of Lansdown, the Amendment suggested by Lord Ellenborough last night, for enabling Parliament to alter or amend the Bill in the present Session, was agreed to.

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The various clauses in the Bill having been passed through,
The Bishop of London rose to propose an Amendment in the preamble. The object of that Amendment was, to render the preamble of this Bill conformable to that of another Bill relating to the Cholera in Scotland, which would be immediately before their Lordships, and in which there was a direct acknowledgment that it was by the providence of Almighty God that this disease had come amongst us. Though he was not of opinion that it was expedient, or conducive to the interests of true religion, repeatedly to refer to the providence of God in Acts of the Legislature relating to ordinary matters; yet there were occasions when the Legislature was called upon to do so; and he would state to their Lordships two instances, neither of them at a very distant period, and one of them connected with an emergency not altogether dissimilar from the present, in which such a course had been adopted. In the preamble to the Act which was passed for the rebuilding of the city of London after the great fire, there was a devout acknowledgment that that calamity had been caused by the providence of God; and, in the other instance, that of the Act constituting the late Regency, the illness which then affected our revered Monarch (George 3rd), was, in the same devout spirit, attributed to Divine Providence. It did not, he was sure, require any arguments on his part to persuade their Lordships to adopt this Amendment. As he had said already, he did not think that reference of this kind should be made upon ordinary questions of policy: but, on such an occasion as the present, it was decorous and proper to acknowledge the dispensations of the Divine Will. Moreover the introduction of this Amendment was necessary, in order to render this Bill conformable to the Bill that related to Scotland. He would take that opportunity, however, to say a few words with regard to the prevalence of unnecessary alarm on the subject of this disease, principally in relation to the city of London, with which he was so intimately connected, and for the interest and welfare of whose inhabitants he was so deeply concerned. With all the praise which was justly due to the exertions of the Central Board of the metropolis—he did not mean the Central Board of Health appointed by the Government, but a local Board that had been established in the city—it had been too active in exciting alarm; and that one
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of the measures which it had recommended for the purpose of meeting the malady was exceedingly injudicious, and very much to be deprecated. The measure to which he alluded was this: it had been recommended by that Board, that all the children should be dismissed from the national parochial schools in the city of London, that the schools should be shut up, and that preparations should be made for the purpose of converting them into Cholera hospitals. An emergency might undoubtedly arise, when it would be necessary to take measures of that extensive description, and when even buildings of a more sacred character must be appropriated to such a purpose; but until such an occasion did arise, the religious education of the poor ought not to be suspended. He was afraid that such a suspension would not be of a temporary nature, but Would be likely to continue for several years; for, if all the schools were converted into Cholera hospitals, the poor would have a great and a natural unwillingness to send their children back to them again. The consequence would be—a consequence that was much to be deprecated—that the religious education of the children of the poor might be thus suspended for a considerable period. He would suggest to those from whom the recommendation for appropriating those places to the purpose of Cholera hospitals had proceeded, that there were other buildings in the city of London—buildings which were used principally for the purposes of festivity, and the conversion of which to such an object, whenever the emergency called for it, would be much more suitable and proper. He alluded to the halls belonging to the different companies forming the corporation of that great city. It would be much more fitting in the Magistracy of the City that they should appropriate those buildings before they shut up the schools consecrated to the education of the people. It would be far better to suspend for some time civic festivities, than suspend for a long period the religious education of the people. The right rev. Prelate concluded by moving the insertion, in the preamble of the Bill, of the words—"it having pleased Divine Providence to visit this kingdom with this disease."
The Marquis of Lansdown had no objection whatever to the amendment; but, on the contrary, it met with his cordial approbation. Under ordinary circumstances, however, he very much doubted the propriety of introducing a reference of this

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kind into an Act of Parliament, as, possibly, the inference might be drawn from it, that all other events, as well as the particular event in question, were not equally under the disposal and control of an all-seeing and all-ruling Providence, which accomplished its ends and its objects in great, as well as in small events, through the medium of secondary causes. In this instance, however, as he had said already, he approved of the introduction of such words. With regard to the other point to which the right rev. Prelate had alluded, he entirely concurred with him in thinking, that the progress of education ought not to be interrupted. It was probably known to their Lordships, that in the city of London the Lord Mayor had set a most praiseworthy example, in appropriating his own warehouse for the purposes of a Cholera hospital, if a necessity should arise for using it, and thus proving that he should have no fear of returning to it after it had been so occupied. He believed, that in all the various districts the citizens of London would make all the arrangements to meet the exigency which were necessary; and under such circumstances, there would be no reason for the conversion of school-houses into Cholera hospitals.
Bill went through the Committee, the House having resumed, it was read a third time and passed.

TITHES—IRELAND.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, that when the Report of the Committee was laid on their Lordships' Table, it occurred to him that it was desirable, upon two points, to obtain some further information from his Majesty's Government, and particularly from the noble Marquis (the Chairman of the Committee) who had presented that Report. He deemed it, however, better to wait for the printing of the Report, as, when their Lordships had the printed copies before them they could ascertain their contents with greater accuracy, and there possibly might be no grounds for calling for such an explanation. He had, therefore, waited, but he still found it necessary and desirable to call for an explanation from the noble Marquis as to two points which he should state to their Lordships. It was suggested by the Report of the Committee, that his Majesty's Government should, by their Attorney General, levy, under the authority of the law passed for that purpose, the amount of monies due for tithes for the year 1831. If it was the intention of his Majesty's Government that
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the Law Officers of the Crown should only proceed by information for the arrears of tithes due for that period, and the payment of which had been resisted, he was desirous to know whether the whole of the expense of such law proceedings were to be borne by his Majesty's Government, or whether any portion of that expense was to be deducted from the amount which Government would advance to individual clergymen in lieu of the arrears, the payment of which were to be thus enforced. It appeared from the Report of the Committee, that it was intended to grant power to the Government to levy the tithes due for the year 1831. He wished, therefore, to know, and this was his second question, why, if such a power was given to the Government for the purpose of enforcing the payment of the arrears due to the clergy, that power was not carried further back than the year 1831, extending in fact over the whole period during which most of those arrears had accrued? Why should the Government be armed with extraordinary power to enforce the payment of tithes for one year, if that power did not extend throughout the period that the extraordinary resistance to the payment of tithes had called for the interposition of Government? Their Lordships would see that by proceeding in that way they were creating that very anomaly which had been so much condemned—they were creating two different persons to whom the payment of tithes should be made, and the evil would be still more increased by the circumstance of those two persons levying the tithe under different powers. Further, their Lordships would observe, that the tithes due for 1831 were only now corning into the ordinary course of payment, whereas the tithes, the payment, of which had been resisted, were those of the year 1830. If it were proper that the authority of the law should be maintained, and that extraordinary power should be given to the Government for that purpose, that extraordinary power ought, undoubtedly, to cover the whole of the period during which an extraordinary resistance had been made to the payment of tithes. With respect to the prospective measures for the regulation of tithes, to which the Report alluded, he should say nothing at present, the more especially as it appeared that the Committee had not as yet matured any plan on that subject.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, that, with respect to the first question which the

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noble Baron had put to him, as to the expense of the proceedings to be taken by the Attorney General for the recovery of the arrears of tithe due, he thought, upon every consideration, that that expense should be defrayed out of the advances made to zthe clergy by the Government. The expense, therefore, would not fall on the Government, but upon the clergymen from whom the application for relief had proceeded. With regard to the other question, as to the period for which the payment of the arrears of tithe should be thus enforced by the Government, he apprehended that a great portion of the resistance to the payment of tithe, as it appeared from the evidence given before the Committee, was confined to the year 1831. No doubt resistance had taken place to the payment of tithes due in 1830; but the principal resistance of which the Committee had obtained evidence was, as he had just said, confined to 1831. He had no difficulty, however, in saying as to the time for which arrears were due, and as to the period over which the Government would extend its proceedings, that was a point which would be a proper subject for consideration when the Bill came before their Lordships. It would be, therefore, rather inconvenient for them at present to tie themselves down to any exact period, as they could consider that, when the Bill, which must originate in the other House, should come before them. At the same time, he apprehended that it was not the meaning of the Committee, or the intention of the House, to recommend that his Majesty's Government should go back for the recovery of the arrears of tithes over a long period, and should institute proceedings for arrears that had been incurred a long time back. That would lead to great difficulty, and probably to great animosity and vexation.
Lord Ellenboroughrepeated, that when an extraordinary power was given to the Government for the enforcement of the payment of tithes, that power should extend throughout the whole period that an extraordinary resistance had been made to the collection of them. He did not clearly understand from the noble Marquis whether the expense of the proceedings that were to be taken by the Attorney General were to fall upon the Clergy or the public.
The Marquis of Lansdownbegged again to explain to the noble Baron that the expense would be deducted from the advances made by the Government to the
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clergy. The expenses, in the first instance, would be borne by the Government, but would be defrayed by the clergy.
Lord Ellenboroughhoped, that the decision which the noble Marquis had announced upon that point would not be an irrevocable one, and that his Majesty's Government would yet give to it the fullest consideration. Again he would repeat, that the arrears of tithes now due were due for the year 1830, and not 1831, and that the extraordinary power to be vested in the Government for the purpose of collecting those arrears should extend at least to the arrears of that year. He had asked for explanations on those points, for the purpose of attracting the notice of Ministers to them, in order that they might well and duly consider the provisions of the Bill which was to be introduced on the subject.
Lord Plunkettdid not think that any necessity existed for extending the extraordinary powers that were to be vested in the Government beyond the year 1831, but should they be considered by their Lordships necessary, it would be better discussed when the measure to which the noble Baron had adverted was brought in. With regard to the other question, as to the payment of expenses, power was given to the Court of Exchequer to decide on the information, and the Court would be further armed with the power of deciding the question as to whether the case should carry costs.
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, that the explanations which had been just given by the noble Marquis would not satisfy the clergy of Ireland, or do away with the strong feeling of alarm which must be excited by the report which had been presented by the Committee. A long time must elapse before the bill to which the noble Marquis had alluded could be brought before their Lordships, since that Bill must originate in the other House of Parliament. During this interval, the Report would be circulated throughout the country, and would carry disappointment and terror to all the Church establishment in Ireland. The Report recommended powers to be given to enforce payment only of the tithes of the year 1831; but those tithes were not payable in that year, and, therefore, the Bill could give no immediate relief, and the clergy would look upon the Report as an abandonment of their property up to the year 1831. It was not yet the time when the clergy in most parishes were ac-

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customed to apply for the tithes of that year. But the payments that ought to he enforced were those for the year 1830, which were last year illegally resisted. In truth, the system of resistance had existed more than two years, and was confined, for the most part, to one part of the country, as appeared upon the face of the Report. It appeared to him that if anything were wanting to prove the progress of that revolutionary spirit, the object and aim of which was, the pulling down of the best institutions of the country, it was to be found in the remarkable and ominous circumstance, that a Report of such a nature as the present one, which declared at once the extinction of the law of the land on the subject of tithes, should be presented to that House by a Minister of State, without one single observation having been made on the occasion by any one Member of his Majesty's Government. The noble Earl opposite, at the head of his Majesty's Government, had told them, on a former evening, that it was his determination to uphold the law of the land. That declaration of the noble Earl had since been interpreted by one of his colleagues in another place in a different sense, and with that interpretation, the noble Earl must allow him to say, his original declaration in that House was totally at variance. It appeared, from what had been stated in another place, that though his Majesty's Government was determined to maintain the law of the country, they would, while they did so, proceed to redress the grievance that existed; thereby describing that law which had been the law of the land ever since Ireland had been connected with England as a grievance. He begged to deny that it was a grievance; on the contrary, he would contend, that it was a just and equitable law, and that if the Government had been determined to uphold it, the noble Earl ought to have come down at an earlier period of the Session, and made such a declaration. It was his duty to have come down to that House, and express his determination to maintain the law, and to uphold the rights and privileges of the church of Ireland. There would then have been no occasion for the violent revolution which it was now proposed to effect in the laws of that country.
Earl Greysaid, that if ever there was an occasion which did not call for the excitement of party spleen, and the display of party venom, this was such an occasion,
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when his Majesty's Government had produced a measure, with the double object, of giving the relief to the clergy and enforcing the law. He did think, that when a measure which was intended to effect those purposes—to attain those desirable objects—a measure which had been approved of by those who had most at heart the interests of the Established Church—(and when he said so, he would not admit that any one had more at heart than he had the security of that Church, and the welfare of the country)—when a measure, sanctioned by such approbation, and intended in the best spirit, for the maintenance of the interests of the clergy, was brought forward, he must say, when such a measure as that was proposed to Parliament, for the noble Earl opposite to get up and endeavour to cast the unwarrantable imputations which he had attempted to fix on his Majesty's Government, and to raise a prejudice against the measure in question, was a most extraordinary proceeding. It had caused him a most painful surprise. He was astonished, that party feeling could have led the noble Earl to attack, in the manner he had done, a measure which had such objects in view, and by which the interests of that Church, about which the noble Earl professed himself so anxious, would, as he hoped and believed, be best secured. Such were the intentions and the objects of his Majesty's Government, when properly interpreted and understood; and he was sure that it would be seen, when the subject came under discussion, and when their Lordships had the evidence connected with it before them, that no effort had been wanting, on the part of his Majesty's Government, to maintain the authority of the law. He had no hesitation in saying, that the charge which had been made against the Government was utterly false and unfounded. It would be then seen, that no endeavour had been wanting to enforce the execution of the law; that all the means in the power of the Government had been resorted to for that purpose; and that every assistance had been given, even, perhaps, beyond what the existing law warranted, in enforcing the claims of the clergy to the payment of tithes. When the noble Earl complained that he (Earl Grey) did not make a declaration to that effect at an earlier period of the Session, he would appeal to the House and to the country, whether he had ever omitted to state, that whenever the authority of the law was resisted, it was the

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fixed determination of his Majesty's Government to enforce and to support it? He did not think it necessary to come down upon every occasion in which reference had been made to this subject, and to repeat that statement; and if, upon a late occasion he had done so, it was because it had been made necessary by the false impression as to the views and objects of his Majesty's Government which had been industriously spread through Ireland, chiefly by those who should be the last to do so, and who, he must add, in doing so, were actuated by the desire to excite all those feelings of party dissension and party prejudice, which it should be the object of all lovers of their country to allay, and who seemed to have only at heart the triumph of a party, at the expense of the best interests of the country. It was to put an end to the false impressions which such persons had promulgated, that he made the declaration to which the noble Earl had alluded; and he was quite sure that there was nothing in that declaration inconsistent with the Report which had been yesterday presented from the Tithe Committee to their Lordships. For, though he did state, on that occasion, in words that had been much misunderstood, the determination of his Majesty's Government to support the authority of the law, he, at the same time, added, that of nothing was he more convinced than that there was an absolute necessity to correct the grievances of the system of tithes in Ireland. The noble Lord betrayed a lamentable ignorance of the circumstances of that country from which he had come, when he endeavoured to persuade their Lordships that the Report which was now upon their Lordships' Table, was calculated to shake the foundation of the Established Church in Ireland, and to destroy the welfare of society there. A Report, be it observed, which had been adopted with almost perfect unanimity by a Committee appointed by their Lordships. The noble Earl spoke in condemnation of those who had thrown out the opinion that the law, as it existed in Ireland, with regard to tithes, was a grievance, and he had said, that it was the first time he had heard the law of the land so characterised. Would the noble Lord only take the trouble of reading the evidence which had been laid before Parliament on the subject? If he did so, he probably then would obtain the knowledge which almost every one else had obtained—and would arrive at the conclusion which almost everybody else had ar-
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rived at—that the law, with regard to tithes, as it existed in Ireland, operated in a manner that rendered it a terrible grievance, that it must be productive of evil effects while it was continued in its present state, and that the safety of the Church, and the welfare of Ireland, demanded that an end should be put to such a system. The phrase "extinction of tithes," would not, he was sure, be interpreted by those who attended to it in the way that the noble Earl had characterized it. It meant not the extinction of the rights of the clergy, but the commutation of them, and the placing of them on a more satisfactory footing, so as to prevent the collisions that at present took place between the parochial clergy and their parishioners, and thereby to insure the peace, happiness, and welfare, of Ireland. Such were the objects which his Majesty's Government had in view in proposing the Committee on this subject, and he would here say, that their whole desire was, to do justice to all parties—that their most earnest wish was, to restore peace and tranquillity to that unhappy country; and he could not but lament that those who ought to be most anxious to effect such desirable objects seemed most anxious to sow dissension, and to perpetuate party feeling. He should not have said so much upon those matters but for what had fallen from the noble Earl, feeling, as he did, that they were matters which would be more properly discussed when the Bill on this subject should be before them. At present, he looked upon all discussion of the subject as premature, and to be avoided. His Majesty's Ministers felt certainly indebted to the noble Baron opposite (Lord Ellen-borough) who had endeavoured to bring under their consideration matters which the noble Lord seemed to think had been exclusively the objects of his attention. He begged to assure the noble Baron that these matters were equally well understood, and had been attended to, by his Majesty's Ministers. It would be found, he believed, that Ministers had given these subjects the most careful consideration. They had considered these matters with as much attention to the interests of the Church as that noble Lord could do; and when the Bill was before the House they would be ready to discuss them. In giving the relief which was proposed to be given to the clergy, they did them an essential benefit, and rendered the legal recovery of their other claims, which might extend beyond the period to which the power to be vested in the Government

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would go, more easy and certain. Again, however, he must deprecate premature discussion on this subject; but, above all, must he deprecate that spirit of misrepresentation, those endeavours to counteract the Government, in its efforts to relieve the country and the people, and those attempts to raise upon the most unfounded grounds a public feeling against a measure that was intended to support the law, and to establish on a securer basis the rights of the Church. The noble Earl characterized it as a revolutionary measure. Let the noble Earl turn to the list of the persons who formed the Committee from which that Report had proceeded, and say whether they were revolutionary characters—whether they were persons who would give their sanction to a measure, the principle and the object of which was to root up the foundations of the law, to throw everything into anarchy and confusion, and, in short, to produce effects that all the friends of good Government would lament and deplore. He was sure, that the House would not be misled by such attempts on the part of the noble Earl, and that, viewing the question calmly and dispassionately, they would look upon the measure as one calculated to put an end to most of the divisions and dissensions that existed in Ireland, to promote the peace of that country, and to place the rights of the Protestant clergy upon a secure and lasting basis, on which no man was more anxious to see them placed than he was.
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, that the noble Earl, with his usual dexterity, had contrived to charge him with casting imputations, but he denied that he had done so, and it was the noble Earl who had directed accusations against him, which were totally without foundation. In the first place, he cast no imputation on the Committee to whom their Lordships had assigned the investigation of a most difficult question, for it was impossible for any set of men to perform, in a more satisfactory manner than they had done, a most arduous and unpleasant duty. It was not against the Committee, but against his Majesty's Government, that he directed his observations, and he distinctly accused them of not having done their duty at the beginning of the Session. The noble Earl had observed that, during the whole of his political life, he had never felt or uttered any sentiment that was hostile to the Established Church. He (the Earl of Wicklow) could not say what part the noble Earl took with refer-
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ence to such objects when the noble Earl was a member of the Opposition: but when the noble Earl stated, that no imputation of hostility to the Church could rest on him, he ought to recollect that, though he was at the head of the Government, he was not the whole of the Government; and he (the Earl of Wicklow) might, therefore, be allowed to advert to the conduct which had been pursued by some of those with whom the noble Earl was now acting. In the year 1824, a Gentleman in the other House of Parliament, not very remarkable for his attachment to the Protestant Church, nor, he believed, to any other establishment, brought forward a motion, not for a moderate inquiry into the affairs of the Church, but a motion bearing revolution on the face of it—a motion to inquire whether the clergy were not too numerous, and whether the whole establishment Was not overpaid. That motion was lost, and in the minority he observed the name of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, and the names of other individuals, who were members of the present Government. When he saw that noble and learned Lord supporting a motion directed against the Established Church, why should he not look with suspicion and jealousy to the conduct of Ministers? Why should he not feel suspicion and jealousy, when he heard the noble Earl, in the spirit of prophecy, address the right reverend Bench, and tell them "to put their house in order?" It was, he contended, the bounden duty of Government, knowing the spirit that actuated some of its friends, to have come forward, at the commencement of the Session, and to have declared its intention to support the rights of the Established Church. From an Administration differently circumstanced this might not have been necessary; but it was their duty, so constituted, to have made such a declaration, and their having neglected so to do had occasioned much of that mischief which prevailed in Ireland, and which, by a revolutionary measure, as he would still call it, they were now endeavouring to remove. The noble Earl seemed to cast on him (the Earl of Wicklow) a part of the odium of the establishment of those societies which at present existed in Ireland. He begged, therefore, to observe, that he belonged to no society in Ireland. The noble Earl had alluded to the state of opinion in that country, and Protestant societies now formed there, and had stated, that he considered that persons of high rank and consequence

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were the cause of much of the feeling which existed, that the Ministers were unfriendly to the Church. He could only say, that he did not belong to those societies, and he extremely regretted the necessity which had caused their revival. But if they were revived, there was, in his opinion, a very strong cause for such a step. The noble Earl might say, that a party feeling operated on his mind on this subject; but he would maintain that the re-organization of those societies was mainly owing to the Government itself. So long as the Protestants thought that they had a paternal and protecting Government—so long as they believed that the meetings which agitated Ireland were inseparable from the nature of a free Constitution—so long as they imagined that the inflammatory speeches which were made, and the publications which were sent abroad, were incidental to a free Constitution—so long did they remain tranquil. But from the moment they saw the Government giving its confidence and support to those whom they believed to have been always decided enemies to them, to the Church, and to the country—when they saw men of that description encouraged, and even raised to situations in the Government—the moment they heard that the first Minister of the Crown had eulogized the prime mover of the disturbances in Ireland, as a man who was fit for the highest political rank, on account of his abilities, disregarding principle, integrity, and consistency—from that moment they found that the time was come to unite in defence of their religion, their property, and even their lives. Therefore, he again asserted, they had taken upon themselves a deep responsibility, and he would not be prevented by the taunts and sneers of the noble Earl (which he condemned so strongly in others, though no one was more in the habit of indulging in them than himself) from stating his feelings and opinions on this subject.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he would not detain their Lordships for more than a single moment; but he felt it necessary to explain something relative to his conduct in the other House of Parliament which had been very irregularly brought under notice by the noble Earl. The noble Earl had first attacked, he would say, not so much the Government as the Report of the Committee, though now the noble Earl said, that he attacked the Government, and not the Report. But what was the nature of his attack? What did it refer to, but
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the extinction of tithes? Now, whatever had been recommended, was recommended by the Committee, although the noble Earl would now choose to declare, that he meant not to attack the Committee, but the Government. That which was proposed would not injure the Church; on the contrary it would effect the extinction and destruction, not of the Church, but of all that rendered the Church unpopular in Ireland; and which, if removed, would make that Church popular, and give it that security which at present it had not. As for himself, he had taken no part in this transaction—he was not a member of the Committee—he had nothing to do with it, and was no more answerable for its acts than any other member of the Government. Next to the Committee against whom the noble Earl's attacks were levelled, he had thought fit to attack others, and amongst the rest the humble individual who then addressed their Lordships. The noble Earl said, that he (the Lord Chancellor) had voted for a motion brought forward in the other House of Parliament by an hon. Gentleman of whom he had not spoken in the most courteous terms. The noble Earl, he hoped, did not mean to convey the charge that that hon. Gentleman was an enemy to the Church—that he was no friend to the establishment—that he wished to bring down, not the Church alone, but the other institutions of the country. ["No, no," from the Earl of Wicklow.] He (the Lord Chancellor) was glad to have misunderstood the noble Earl; but, to his mind the charge appeared to be, that the hon. Gentleman was no friend to the Church Establishment, or to the other institutions of the country. He was, however, happy to hear that the noble Earl meant no such thing, but the very reverse. Now, that he (the Lord Chancellor) had voted for the motion alluded to, he had no doubt, because the noble Lord had said so. He had not, however, the least recollection of the circumstance; but that he had ever voted for a motion of the description which the noble Lord had given—a motion to destroy, to weaken, or in any way to injure the Established Church—that he did most positively deny. Let the noble Earl state the words of the motion, and he would answer for it that the resolution would be found to have no such tendency. If it were otherwise, he certainly would not have voted for it. When he looked to the situation of the Established Church of Ireland—when he thought of the peace of Ireland, and the

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good Government of that country—he must say, that one reflection was ever present in his mind—when he heard the language of individuals, who expressed themselves anxious for the performance of the great and sacred duties which they owed to Ireland—who declared that they felt the most friendly disposition towards the good Government, the peace, and the prosperity of that country—he must say, that the peace of Ireland, the good Government of Ireland, and the Church of Ireland, had every reason in these times to pray that they might have any friends rather than those.
The Duke of Buckinghamthought that the report should have been more complete than it now was before it was laid on their Lordships' Table. It stated great evils, but it laid down no principles by which those evils could be remedied. In this state that report would go forth to the world, and would not tend to allay those party feelings which existed in Ireland. The noble Earl complained of the subject exciting party feelings, but he hoped that to such a degree of party feelings as was necessary to preserve the Established Church it would be exposed. He had no party feelings on the subject, and the noble Earl would pardon him for saying that he could not look on the measure as likely to be a source of security and tranquillity, and he could not look at it as calculated to realize the hopes and expectations which had been excited. Looking back, indeed, at the measures adopted in Ireland—looking at the state of that country—looking at the vacillation of the government of Ireland, taking up and laying down measures as the great agitator of Ireland dictated, who had acknowledged himself guilty of breaking the law—looking at the Government afterwards courting his hollow assistance to secure the country against agitation—looking at these things, could he expect from the measures now proposed, tranquillity for Ireland and security for the Protestant Church? He should not have said so much had it not been for the eagerness of the noble Lord. If the report of the Committee mentioned the extinction of tithes, he might complain that one day the plan was commutation and another extinction. Formerly it was extinction, now it was commutation. The noble Earl was not consistent in his statements.
Earl Greysaid, he had not said one word against commutation.
The Duke of Buckinghamhad formerly heard of extinction, while the explanation
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given in another place flatly, in his opinion, contradicted the declaration of the noble Earl in that House. The noble Earl had not shown how tithes were to be commuted. In the present state of Ireland, he did not think such a scheme could last forty-eight hours. When they promulgated the Report they were bound to state—considering the situation and anxiety of Ireland, they were bound to state to what extent the measures were to go which they contemplated. He came down to the House only intending to put the question to the noble Earl which he would then ask, which was—when did the noble Earl intend to explain to the House the plan he had in contemplation?
Lord Plunkettwished to say, with respect to the language used by his noble friend (Earl Grey), on a former occasion, that it was not possible for any language to be more industriously misrepresented, though it was then most gratefully accepted by cheers from the other side. He would not enter into his noble friend's views, but only say, that the language he then used was exactly the same as what his noble friend had now stated. There were persons in Ireland of two opposite factions, who were reckless of all the consequences to the peace and tranquillity of the country if their party views were successful. His noble friend had never altered his sentiments, or given, on the one hand, the smallest reason to believe, that, in his opinion, the just rights of the Church ought to be abandoned; nor, on the other hand, had his noble friend ever uttered a sentiment which could make it be supposed that the just expectations of the people were not to be attended to. The proceedings of the Committee confirmed his noble friend's declaration. Relief was, in the first instance, proposed to be given to the suffering clergy by the Government, the Government taking on itself to prosecute the rights of the clergy. At the same time it was declared—and this was the opinion of all reasonable men, it was confessed by the clergy themselves—that there was no security for the Church—no safety for the Establishment, unless the system of tithes was extinguished. He was far from insinuating that the noble Duke, his noble friend, if he might so call him, would wilfully misrepresent what had fallen from the noble Earl—the whole course of his life, and his great stake in both countries would not admit of any man forming such an opinion; but he did intreat his noble

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friend to consider whether he was promoting the interest of the Church, by holding his present language. The clergy of Ireland, he could assure his noble friend, would not consider those their friends who made use of it. The clergy of Ireland were grateful to the Government for what it had done. If any body thought that the clergy were not contented with what the Government had done, he was much mistaken. If noble Lords would wait till they read the evidence given by several Churchmen before the Committee, they would find that there was no jealousy of this plan, and that it was the opinion of all those interested for the welfare of Ireland that the tithe system could not be continued. It was said that the language was different, and that both extinction and commutation had been mentioned: he had not seen any objectionable phrases of this kind. His noble friend had not used the word extinction, but the Committee had. The report of the Committee used both phrases, both extinction and commutation. This was a plain proposition, which he saw no difficulty in understanding. Was it fair to state that the Government wished to injure the Church, when it raised expectations of putting an end to daily conflicts between the clergy and the people, and when it endeavoured to restore peace? Would it injure the character of the ministers of God, who were engaged in interpreting the Word of God to the people? or would it injure the interests of the Church to take away those sources of conflict? Would not the instruction of the clergy be more cordially received by the people, if this source of dispute did not exist? With respect to the Government of Ireland, he wished that some facts were stated—some plain proposition advanced—some proof given, that it had neglected to protect the rights of the clergy. He begged that some instances might be given of cases in which the law afforded the means of protecting the clergy, and the Government had refused its aid. The fact was, that by the rage of party feelings, Ireland Was torn in pieces. The parties lost sight of her interest to thwart every government which did not humble itself before one or the other. That was the feeling of these parties; but they forgot that there was a third party—the people of Ireland, whose interest demanded the care of the Government. There was the party of the Protestant Ascendancy, and the party pf the Democracy, and they were both hos-
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tile to the Government, which, for once, was in opposition to both. This was the cause of the complaints made against the Irish Government. There was no person more firmly attached to all the best interests of Ireland than the Marquis of Anglesey. If injury was offered to the clergy, and assistance were demanded, it was immediately and promptly given. Let their Lordships look at the evidence before the Committee, and not run away with vague notions, and they would find the fact stated by persons of different ranks, that there was a suspicion that the Government would not support the clergy. But they could mention no instance in which assistance had not been given. The charge was, that the Government did not support the rights of the clergy. If, however, their Lordships would not listen to the wild suggestions of party feeling, but to the evidence given before the Committee, they would find that there was no instance of the Government having ever refused to do so. They had heard much of lawless associations of the agitators, but he would undertake to say, that there were other associations still more lawless. There was the lawless Democracy Association, but there was also the lawless Ascendancy Association. The Democracy Association was wicked, mischievous, and dangerous. He had often looked at it with apprehension; but it was mixed up, lawless as it was, with some real grievances. It might be said, why did the law not put it down? The law had been applied, but the Government could not go beyond the law, and it must take away the grievance in order to have the law respected and willingly obeyed. He saw some necessity for this association; but, without imputing bad motives to the other party, charity even obliged him to say, that they were the most senseless class of associators he had ever heard of. He was afraid of the former, but he could not possibly feel any respect for the latter. One specific person had been pointed out—a person of whom it was said the Government was afraid, and before whom the Government was described to humble itself. He was the last person who could be expected to panegyrise the individual alluded to, for he had never hesitated to do his duty towards the public, though it might be against that individual. In the fulfilment of that duty, when he held a situation different from his present situation, he had instituted a prosecution against that individual, and he could tell their Lordships how that prosecution was defeat-

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ed. It was defeated, because, in the spirit thwarting the Government, the opposite party took up the defence of its greatest enemy, and prevented the public good being effected. He wished to tell their Lordships, that it was not so easy to catch that person within the law. He had carefully observed his proceedings for many years, and he would declare, as a constitutional lawyer, that he had only found one occasion on which he thought that individual could be successfully prosecuted. He was successfully prosecuted, and nothing but the expiration of the Act of Parliament prevented him from being brought up for punishment. With respect to the Government not daring to execute the law, he would only say, that it did not dare to go beyond the law. It was said, that the Government had offered a place to that gentleman, which was a report without foundation. Much as he condemned the conduct of that individual, he must say, that, as far as he knew, the declaration formerly made by his noble friend was strictly true. The professional pursuits and professional reputation of that gentleman were so great, that nobody ranked higher. As a practical barrister, his reputation entitled him to the highest place. To indulge in angry feelings was not, he believed, the best means of conducting affairs to a satisfactory result; and, looking to the situation to which the general business of that person would entitle him, he thought it would be advantageous, if means could be found, to disarm him of mischief. If the Government could have done that, it would have been acting a wise part to place that gentleman in a situation where his opposition would cease. To that extent he had been willing to go; but to say that the Government had humbled itself before that individual was most untrue. He called, then, upon the noble Lord, to put his finger upon any act of the Government in which it had not supported the laws. He was sure that the interest of the clergy had been supported in Ireland, though the Protestants of the North of Ireland had made some loud complaints. These persons called themselves the guardians of the public peace, and they associated to put an end to the peace of the country. He had looked through their proceedings—he had examined their speeches, abstracting himself from other business, and he could openly declare, that he had not found one intelligible proposition in all their proceedings. They called out for protection from the law—they called out to preserve
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the Constitution—but they did not establish any infraction of the laws, or point out any remedy which could be adopted. The Government was beset by enemies on both sides; but the good feeling of the great body of the people—of all the sound, and intelligent, and sensible part of the population—was in its favour, as it looked to them for support. If the Government did not show any favour to either party—if it both protected the clergy and protected the people, he had no apprehension of the results.
The Duke of Buckinghamexplained, that he did not say that both extinction and commutation had been spoken of by the noble Earl (Grey); but he stated, that the noble Earl had not mentioned extinction, and his colleagues in the other House had.
The Earl of Carnarvoncould not but express his surprise that such warm language should be used in a debate which had grown up so incidentally. If the Government were to act on the principles it professed; if it were to pursue that even-handed justice the noble Lord ascribed to it, he should be sorry to see any measure it proposed for the public good opposed in limine from party animosity. He could not, however, agree with the noble Lord in ascribing that character to the Government; and he could not help feeling, that the language indulged in by the noble Lord was calculated to alarm the already irritated Protestants. The noble Lord had described them as men more deficient in intellect than any he had ever beheld.
Lord Plunkettdenied that he had ascribed such a character to the Protestants: he had only said, that in their speeches he could not find one intelligible proposition.
The Earl of Carnarvonwas glad to hear any explanation; but he wished that the language of the noble Lord had been more temperate. The noble Lord would not say that the party of the Protestants were few, when he saw the Petition against the measures of Government signed by 235,000 Protestants. That was not an indication of a defect in their understanding, nor of that senseless character which the noble Lord had modestly ascribed to them. They showed that they justly appreciated the blessings they had long enjoyed. He must see some better fruit of the conduct of the Government than he had yet beheld before he believed its professions. The Government said it was neuter; but he asked, with which party did the contest arise? The Catholics of Ireland had received the greatest boon that ever was conferred on any

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people; and when they accepted it, they said that they had then got everything they wanted. But scarcely were they in possession of their wishes, when the embers of their old Association were again blown into a blaze, and publicly, openly, and boldly, they professed that their object was to separate the two countries. Did the attack then originate with the Protestants? Did the Government take any effectual measures to put down these attacks? The attack made on the tithes began more than a year ago: had it been instigated by Protestants? It began with the Hurlers, who had been attended by a legal gentleman to advise them, so as not to break the law. Were these proceedings put down? The Government said, that it had applied the law; but these proceedings had been going on for a whole year, the Government had found the law inefficient, and it had not come to ask for fresh powers. After this state of things had continued a whole year, the noble Earl came down, and said, if he found that his powers were not sufficient to put down these disorders, he would not shrink from applying to Parliament for more power! He had submitted to excitement and agitation for a whole year; rebellion had not been arrested, but fostered; and now, at the end of a year's professions, the Government doubted whether it should apply for greater power. If the Government made the application to Parliament, it would find that no power would be refused, no establishment withheld by those whom the Government generally considered in opposition to it; and if any opposition were made, it would come from those to whom it was accustomed to look as its political friends. The noble Lord said, that the Agitator was not punished, because the law expired; but how did it expire? By the most hasty, impatient proceeding of the Ministers. They terminated the Parliament abruptly, and lost the opportunity of re-enacting the law. He saw no ground for confiding in Ministers; if he saw any determination, on their part, to put down the rebellious spirit that prevailed in Ireland, he should be ready to give his support to the measure proposed. He regretted to say, that hitherto the policy of the present Government had been, not to give that support to the Protestants of Ireland they had a right to expect, and which they had formerly received.
The Marquis of Clanricardecomplained of the strong language used by the noble Earl towards the Government, who had said, that rebellion had been fostered and
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encouraged in Ireland—[The Earl of Carnarvon did not say that the Government had fostered rebellion].—He wished that the noble Lord would make some specific charge against the Government, and if the noble Earl could show that the Government had neglected to support the clergy of Ireland, or to use its proper authority, he certainly would not support the Government. He must deny that the great body of the Protestants of Ireland were represented by the Orangemen, and, as a Protestant Nobleman, he must say, that the Associations alluded to by the noble Lord were not the whole Protestant party. They had been spoken of as embracing 2,000,000 of Protestants, and now they had shrunk down to 230,000.
The Earl of Carnarvonsaid, the noble Marquis was very much mistaken, if he supposed that he (Earl Carnarvon) had said that Government had fostered rebellion in Ireland. What he did say was, that those who originated and attended the Hurling Meetings were the prime movers of every species of resistance to the law which existed in Ireland; and he complained that those proceedings were not stopped.