Lords Sitting of 16 February 1832

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Lord LORTON, from the Clergy and Inhabitants of Moate, Westmeath, against the new system of Education in Ireland:—By Lord CLONCURRY, from Members of the Society of Friends (Ireland), against Negro Slavery.

CHOLERA MORBUS—MEASURESOF PRE- CAUTION.
The Marquis of Lansdown moved the first reading of the Cholera Morbus Prevention Bill, and in doing so, gave notice that he should to-morrow move the suspension of the standing orders of the

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House, with a view to the passing this Bill, as quickly as possible, through its remaining stages.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, that though he had no objection to the passing of this Bill with as much rapidity as the noble Marquis might desire, he could not, at the same time, avoid observing, that it did not appear to be a bill that had been framed altogether with that due consideration and carefulness that were required in a matter of such importance. It was to be regretted that a measure of this kind had not been brought forward at an earlier period, when their Lordships' might have been able to devote more time to its consideration; and that Ministers had waited until the disease was at the door before they introduced this Bill. The attention of his Majesty's Ministers had been directed to the subject in December last, and it was then stated to them, that the powers given to the Privy Council under the 6th George 4th, for the removal of nuisances were not as comprehensive as they supposed, or sufficient to meet the emergency that was approaching. In the course of January it was distinctly shown that the powers vested in the Privy Council under that Act of Parliament were totally inadequate to meet the exigencies of the present case. He, therefore, repeated, that it was to be regretted that this measure had not been brought forward at an earlier period, when their Lordships' might have had more time to attend to the wording and the enactments of the Bill. From what he saw of it, it appeared to him that it would be necessary to make one amendment in it, namely, the introduction of the usual provision enabling Parliament to alter or amend the Act in the present Session.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, that there could, of course, be no objection to the introduction, to-morrow, of the amendment alluded to by the noble Lord. The opinion had existed that the Privy Council could exercise the powers vested in it by the Act of Parliament to a greater extent than, upon due consideration, was found to be the case. The present Bill had, therefore, been brought forward, as it appeared expedient that all doubts on the subject should be removed. The papers already laid on the Table would show that the instructions of the Privy Council had not been complied with in particular instances.
The Bill read a first time.

TITHES (IRELAND)—REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE.
The Marquis of Lansdown
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presented the Report of the Select Committee to which had been referred the consideration of Tithes in Ireland, and the state of the law on that subject. The noble Marquis moved that it be read, which was done, as follows:—
"That the Committee have proceeded to examine into the subject which has been referred to them; and although they have not yet been able to bring their inquiries to a close, they think it their duty not to defer laying before the House their opinion on parts of the evidence which has been brought before them, and on circumstances which call for the immediate attention of the Legislature. A resistance, more or less decided, to the payment of tithe, appears to have been made in several parts of Ireland, but more particularly in the counties of Kilkenny, Carlow, and Tipperary, and a portion of the Queen's county, and supported by means of organized, illegal, and, in some instances, armed combinations, the danger of which is increased, by the peculiar circumstances of Ireland; but which, from whatever cause they may arise, if allowed to continue, and to extend themselves successfully to other districts, cannot fail to be applied to other objects, and ultimately to subvert the dominion of the law, and endanger the peace and security of society.
"It appears that the consequence of these proceedings has been, that, in the districts where resistance has been made to the payment of tithes, the clergy have, in many instances, been reduced to the greatest distress.
"The estimated amounts, in the districts where this resistance has chiefly prevailed, according to information laid before the Committee, of sums due for the tithe, are, in the dioceses of

OSSORY.

In compounded parishes

£14,345

In uncompounded ditto

£10,130

£24,475

LEIGHLIN.

In compounded parishes

18,092

In uncompounded ditto

2,700

20,792

CASHEL AND EMLEY.

In 113 compounded parishes

23,490

In twenty-five uncompounded ditto, on an average of those which have been compounded

4,197

27,687

FERNS—supposed to be about

7,000

KILDAKE—ditto

5,000

Total

£84,954

"It appears to the Committee that, in order to afford immediate relief to the distressed clergy, it is expedient that his Majesty should be empowered to advance to the incumbent,

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where tithes, or compositions in lieu of tithes, have been illegally withheld, or to his representatives upon a petition verified by affidavit, sums not exceeding the amount of the arrears due for the tithes of the year 1831, proportioned to the incomes of each, according to a scale diminishing as their incomes increase.
"That, as a security for the repayment of the sums so to be advanced, his Majesty should be empowered to issue orders to levy, under the authority of a law to be passed for this purpose, the amount of arrears due for the tithes of the year 1831, without prejudice to the claims of the clergy for any arrear that may be due for a longer period, reserving, in the first instance, the amount of the advances so made, and paying over the remaining balance to the legal claimant.
"That where the tithes claimed by the party petitioning shall be under the operation of the Composition Acts, the amount to be advanced shall be regulated by such composition; where the amount of tithe shall have been regulated by any agreement, independently of the Composition Acts, the amount shall be regulated by such agreement; and in all other cases by the average amount of the tithes which have been really and bonâ fide paid or secured to the incumbent of such parish for the years 1827, 1828, and 1829.
"That, in order to the more effectually levying the amount of the sums so to be advanced, it shall be lawful for the Attorney General to proceed, either by petition to the Court of Chancery or of Exchequer, or by civil bill at the Quarter Sessions of the county in which the parish or part of the parish of such incumbent is situate against all or any of the parties from whom such arrear shall be claimed as due by such incumbent; and that the said Courts respectively may issue process for the recovery of the sums to be by them awarded, conformably to the provisions to be inserted in such Act of Parliament, and similar to those contained in several Acts of the Parliament of Ireland in the years 1787, 1788, 1799, and 1800, with such additions or alterations as may be thought fit to be introduced into such Act, as adapted to the circumstances now existing in Ireland.
"But, strongly as the Committee are impressed with the necessity of maintaining the authority of the law, and relieving the pressing wants the clergy have suffered from a breach of it, they have anxiously turned their attention to the practicability of effecting an useful alteration in the present system; and although the inquiry in which they are engaged is not sufficiently advanced to enable them to pronounce a distinct opinion as to the best means of removing the evils connected with the collection of tithes in Ireland, enough has appeared to satisfy them that, with a view to secure both the interests of the Church, and the lasting welfare of that country, a permanent change of system will be required. That such a change, to be satisfactory and safe, must involve a
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complete extinction of tithes, including those belonging to lay impropriators, by commuting them for a charge upon land, or an exchange for or investment in land, so as effectually to secure the revenues of the Church (as far as relates to tithes), and, at the same time, to remove all pecuniary collision between the parochial clergy and the occupiers of land.
"February 10, 1832."
Report on the Motion of the Marquis of Lansdown, and the evidence on which it was founded, ordered to be printed.