Lords Sitting of 7 February 1832

MINUTES.
Bills brought in. By the Marquis of WEST-MEATH, to regulate the Baking Trade in Ireland.
Returns ordered. On the Motion of Lord MONSON, for Plans, Estimates, and Contracts, relating to the Repairs and Alterations of Buckingham Palace.
Petitions presented. By Lord DACRE, from the Inhabitants of Worcester, for an Inquiry into the System in which Hospitals are Conducted:—By Earl GREY, from Stone-house, Lanark, in favour of Reform; from the Corporation of Waterford and from Newport for additional Members for Ireland; from the Silk Throwsters of Macclesfield, against the Importation of Foreign Silk, and from the Operatives of the Glove Trade, Yeovil, against the Importation of Foreign Gloves:—By Lord CLONCURRY, from the united Parishes of Skreen and Rathfigh, Clonemether, Wallen Grange, and Burnchurch, for an alteration of the Law of Tithe.

ANATOMY—PETITION.
The Duke of Sussexrose to present a Petition similar to those which he had the honour to lay on the Table the other day. It was a petition signed by 288 students of St. Bartholomew's Hospital, who, after setting forth that they were diligently bent on procuring the knowledge and skill to enable them to practise in the several departments of the medical art, and after stating that for that purpose they were obliged to devote much attention to the structure of the various parts which compose the human body, called upon their Lordships to make such alterations in the law as would allow them to prosecute their studies in safety and with effect.! He would confine himself at present to the presenting this petition, for having stated
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on the former occasion his opinions at some length, he did not feel it necessary to detain their Lordships now by repeating them. He would merely mention one or two facts communicated to him by the Gentleman who put the petition in his hand. There were two persons now in the hospital of St. Bartholomew, one of whom, by name Mary Clay, having undergone an operation, has ordered her body to be disected after her death; and the other, also a woman, before the operation was commenced, ordered that if she should die her body should be opened by the surgeon of the hospital. He merely mentioned these facts to shew that some arrangement might be made gradually to overcome the prejudices of the people. He was also informed by another Gentleman that a body of persons had agreed to leave their bodies for dissection, provided their remains, when the surgeons were done with them, should meet with Christian burial. He would present the petition, hoping that the attention of the Legislature would be directed earnestly to this most important subject.

TITHES (IRELAND).
Earl Greypresented a Petition from the inhabitants and landowners in Rathclaren, praying for the abolition of Tithes and Church Rates, and that the Church Lands might be resumed and disposed of for objects of

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common interest to all the inhabitants of the realm. In introducing this petition to the notice of their Lordships, he begged leave to state, that he presented it as a Peer of that House, and in that capacity only. He had ascertained that it was not worded in a disrespectful manner, and therefore he felt himself bound to present it. He however, need scarcely state to their Lordships, not only that he did not approve of such a measure as the petitioners recommended, but that if a project of that nature were proposed by any one, it should receive from him the most decided and determined opposition. Under all the circumstances of the case, he saw the urgency of effecting some improvement in the mode of making provision for the clergy in Ireland; but he would unequivocally state, that he never could think of making any such improvement in the mode of providing for the clergy without fully securing to the Church its just rights. At the same time he hoped and believed that something might be done to remove those causes of complaint and dispute which were engendered by the existing system. However, to avoid misrepresentation, and to put an end to certain unfounded rumours which had been industriously circulated—rumours which were connected with the opposition given to the payment of tithes, and which had a very bad effect in the present situation of Ireland—he felt it right to say, that he thought it absolutely and imperatively necessary, before they proceeded to legislate on this subject generally, that the authority of the law, as it at present stood, should be fully vindicated. In every case where they had been called for, the powers of the law had been strennously exerted, and so far as they could be exerted, Government was determined that the existing law should still be strictly enforced, in order to produce those effects for which its powers were originally granted; and if those powers were ultimately found to be inefficient, he should not hesitate to propose a bill to give the Government still greater authority, in order more effectually to stop those illegal practices which at present prevailed over a large portion of Ireland.
The Earl of Wicklowfelt much gratified at the declaration of the noble Earl but must, at the same time, express his regret that such a declaration had not been made at an earlier period. If a declaration of that nature had been made by the noble Earl, or by any other of his Majesty's
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Ministers, before the appointment of the Committee on tithes, it would have produced a most salutary effect, and a very considerable portion of those evils which had occurred in Ireland would have been prevented. He must be permitted to state his sincere belief that the appointment of a Committee of that House, to inquire into the subject of Irish tithes, unaccompanied by such a declaration as they had just heard, had been attended with much evil —evil which, he feared, the labours of the Committee could not remedy; and to get the better of which would take considerable time, and demand strong exertions on the part of Government.
Earl Greyregretted that, as the noble Earl had expressed his approbation of the sentiments which he (Earl Grey) now utter ed, he should have fallen under his censure for not having stated them at an earlier period. He really considered when he proposed an investigation into the subject of tithes, and the appointment of a Committee of Inquiry, that he was taking the most effectual steps towards tranquillizing the public mind in Ireland, and preventing the continuance of offences against the law. Perhaps he might have taken a different course if he had entertained the most remote suspicion that those evils would have proceeded to the present extent; but with regard to the charge made by the noble Earl, of his having declined to state his determination to support the arm of the law when the Committee was appointed, he could only ask if any other sentiments had ever been delivered by him, and if he had not on all occasions declared his determination to support the interests of the Established Church. He would only say now that which he had repeatedly stated before. He hoped the law as it stood was sufficient, but if it failed to correct violence, and to secure property, he would cheerfully apply to Parliament, to arm the Irish Government with additional authority. He was anxious not to be misunderstood, as he was aware that pains had been taken to circulate reports of the most malignant nature as to the intentions of his Majesty's Government. In defiance of those calumnies he would state confidently and fearlessly that on no occasion had Government neglected to do its duty. He scarcely thought that he should have been called on to vouch for that which was a matter of public notoriety; but as such reports had been propagated and were still continually

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put into circulation, he availed himself of the first opportunity he had—the presentation of this petition—to declare, perhaps more emphatically, though not more sincerely, than he had often declared before, the determination of his Majesty's Government to uphold the authority of the law by every means in their power, and to preserve our existing institutions.
Lord Ellenboroughthought, if the noble Earl had referred to the papers submitted to the Committee, and laid on the Table of the House, the noble Earl would have seen the necessity of making the declaration their Lordships had now heard with so much satisfaction. As early as last November it was stated by the Under Secretary of State in Dublin, in reference to the number of committals in Dublin, that rumours had gone abroad that it was not the intention of Government to uphold the tithe-system, and that it would not prevent the spoliation of the clergy. The noble Earl was aware that the whole people were aroused by the expectation that the measures of the Government would put an end to tithes, and as long as that expectation continued, not knowing what might ultimately be the arrangement, the dues of the clergy were necessarily withheld. All the evils which were described in the papers laid on the Table must necessarily be increased, so long as there were any doubts existing as to what were to be the relations between the tithe-receiver and the tithe-payer; it was impossible to expect that the clergy would expose themselves to danger by exercising their rights, and impossible to expect that the tithe-payers would continue to pay that from which they expected at no distant day to be relieved. Since the appointment of the Committee it had turned out, as he expected, and all the evils of the system had not only continued but increased. They had extended to other counties and other parts of the country in which previously no profession of resistance had been made. Under the present circumstances, the Government certainly ought to lose no time in coming forward, as the noble Earl had done, to vindicate the authority of the law, and maintain the rights of the clergy. Unless that were done, and done rigorously and speedily, the resolution to resist the payment of tithes would be strengthened, and the payment everywhere resisted. It was impossible that this evil could continue without leading to
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other dangers. That must be the case in all countries, and particularly in Ireland, where the people were accustomed to think that all rights were only concessions to force. This state of things could not continue without danger. If measures were not speedily taken to enforce the payment of tithes, undoubtedly the payment of rent would soon be resisted. Whatever proposition the Government might have to make, it ought to lose no time, and the noble Earl should enforce the law for the maintenance of the rights of the clergy. He would venture to suggest, that it was most desirable that an investigation should immediately take place into the state of the existing laws as to enforcing the rights of the clergy, what remedies were provided for them by law, in order to ascertain if it were necessary to make any further provision. He was not aware if this had been done. He thought it was most desirable that the clergyman should be enabled, by some speedy and cheap process, to attach, not only the property, but the persons of the tithe-payers, and to recover his dues. As the law now stood, there was no power of breaking up combinations, and nothing could effect that but a cheap and speedy method of attaching the person. He would venture, likewise, to suggest, that if the law was not at present sufficient, some strong measure should be passed to enable the Government, to prosecute any individuals arraying themselves against the payment of tithes. It was not only illegal to resist tithes—and for that certainly the parties might be prosecuted—but there should be likewise a power of proceeding against those who advised such a measure; for such advice, whether illegal or not, must tend to subvert the tithe system. These were matters which he thought worthy of consideration, and which implied that some new law was necessary. It was necessary to strengthen the hands of the owners of tithes, the hands of the clergy, and the hands of the Government, in order to enable them to make head against the combination which existed in Ireland, to subvert all the rights of the Established Church.
The Marquis of Lansdowndiffered from those noble Lords who were of opinion that the appointment of the Tithe Committee had aggravated the evils under which Ireland was labouring. Upon this question the feelings of the Ministers had

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been much misrepresented. Their conduct had not been supine or negligent. It was given in evidence before the Committee, that whenever the Government had been applied to for the purpose of enforcing the rights of tithe-owners, assistance was promptly afforded. It appeared, throughout the evidence given before that Committee (the evidence, be it observed, of persons of experience, and of different professions and opinions, from various parts of the country), that there had not been a single instance in which the Government, when called on, had not given the most prompt assistance to every person who could justly claim it. It was not to add to this practical demonstration of the determination of his Majesty's Ministers to uphold the law, that his noble friend had made the declaration which they had that night heard; but he had felt it necessary to take this course in consequence of unfair reports which had been most industriously circulated—reports that were un-sustained and unsupported by a single fact. These reports, which had not the least foundation, were sent abroad, not only by those who were interested in the receipt, but also by those who were interested in the payment of tithes. With respect to what had been said as to the effect produced by the appointment of this Committee, he should only observe, that it had been that day stated in evidence, that to the appointment of the Committee might be attributed the non-extension of that spirit of resistance to the payment of tithes which unhappily prevailed in some parts of Ireland; and those who gave this evidence expressed a confident feeling that the result of the investigation of the Committee would be to do away with the system of resistance. He did not believe that there was a single person engaged in the consideration of the subject who was not of opinion that some measure beneficial to each of the parties interested in the question, as well as useful to the general peace of the country, would flow from the labours of the Committee. All the points to which the noble Lord (Lord Ellenborough) alluded, had engaged the attention of the Committee, and they felt the greatest anxiety to recommend such measures as would speedily and decidedly remedy the existing evil.
Lord Cloncurrysaid, he had the honour to be a member of the Committee in question, and it was only doing justice to their
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Lordships who were on that Committee, to state his conviction that no blame whatever could be attributed to them with regard to the excitement which prevailed in Ireland. The resistance of the people to the execution of the laws, proceeded from the general feeling that the laws were unjust. If attention were paid to the just complaints and the just claims of the people, it would soon be found that this was the best method to secure the rights of property, and respect and obedience to the law. He hoped the Committee would do the Irish people justice. He had no doubt that the law as it was would be obeyed in the meanwhile, if the people were told, that what was just and right should be established for the time to come. He had a petition to present.
Lord Ellenboroughinterrupted the noble Lord to say, that the question on the petitions of the noble Earl had not yet been put. In the first of those petitions he observed an informality, which would probably induce the noble Earl to withdraw it for correction.
Lord Wynfordobserved, that the subjects to which his noble friend (Lord Ellenborough) had directed their attention, were under the consideration of the Committee, and he considered it due to that Committee to state, that it was extremely anxious to get at the root of the evil, and, if possible, remove it. With respect to the means which the clergyman in Ireland possessed for the recovery of tithes, they were the same as in England, with this difference, that the Irish clergyman had one additional remedy. He believed that the evils which grew out of the resistance to the payment of tithes, might justly be attributed to the extreme misconduct of the Roman Catholic priests of Ireland. He was convinced of this from reading the pastoral letter of Dr. Doyle to his province, if he were not wrong in using the expression. That letter was acted on by the priests, who denounced, from the altar, those persons who paid tithes. That letter had been productive of immense mischief. He was extremely glad to learn that his Majesty's Ministers had come to the determination to strike at the foundation of the evil.
Lord Plunkettsaid, it gave him great pleasure to observe an unanimous feeling, on all sides of the House, to inquire into this important subject, accompanied by a decided determination, while their Lord-

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ships sought the best means of giving relief to the people, to protect the just and undoubted rights of the clergy. He was greatly surprised that there should be any misunderstanding as to the feelings of his Majesty's Government on this subject. The whole of his noble friend's political life sufficiently answered for his sentiments. He had often heard his noble friend speak on the subject of the Church, and he had never known him to express any other feeling than that which shewed that he cherished a high respect for the rights of the clergy, and of the Protestant Establishment. The idea that there was, on the part of his Majesty's Government, a feeling unfavourable to the clergy, had not grown out of the silence of his noble friend, but had sprung out of injudicious observations that had proceeded from other quarters. Obscure and humble individuals in Ireland might entertain the extravagant notion that the Government of the country was not unwilling to sacrifice the rights of the Church. That such persons, looking at their station in life, might entertain such opinions, was not very surprising; in them, perhaps, it was excusable. But it was a very different matter when suspicions of this nature were cherished and were disseminated by persons of high rank and influence in society. It was not to be wondered at, if such persons connived at, or circulated such reports, that they should produce a very considerable effect on the minds of the lower orders of the people. When persons occupying high situations, who, as public functionaries, were deeply interested in the preservation of the public peace, lent their names to such calumnies, he could not be surprised if individuals moving in an inferior rank were led astray by them. He could not wonder that the people should refuse to pay tithes when they were told by individuals, such as he had described, that the Government of the country were not the supporters of the Protestants of Ireland. Nothing could be more unfounded, more devoid of truth, more dangerous, or more mischievous, than the propagation of such an assertion. It had been truly said, that much of the determination against the payment of tithes, as manifested by the people in some parts of Ireland, had arisen from the persuasion that the Government of this country was not actuated by a considerate feeling towards the clergy. Not a word bad, however, been said by his noble
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friend, or by any other member of the Government, to countenance such a supposition. No, the report came from those who, in spite of all just and fair feeling, had thought fit to propagate that for which there was no foundation. If those individuals chose to associate together, and to declare that the Government had not their confidence, they might do so; but they ought not to make accusations, or to send forth insinuations which were unsupported by fact. If, under these circumstances, the Protestant clergy of Ireland were assailed by difficulties, on whose heads ought the blame to rest? Why, on the heads of those who propagated these, he would call them, unfounded slanders. The noble Lord at the head of the Irish Government had had repeated opportunities of expressing his sentiments on this subject, and he had never, in any one instance, where it was referred to by him, omitted to state that he was most anxious to support the clergy of the Protestant Church. Neither were his mere empty declarations; because, whenever the Government of the country had been called on to support the clergy, in every instance, without exception, the most prompt and cheerful assistance had been afforded to them, and the Protestant clergy of Ireland felt grateful to his Excellency for his support. He begged pardon for detaining the House so long on this question, but, connected as he was with the Irish Government, he felt it to be his duty to say thus much. Undoubtedly he should concur most heartily in every measure which had for its object the support of the Church, and the maintenance of its rights.
Petition laid on the Table.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, he felt it necessary to refer to the case of a Roman Catholic gentleman, Sir Emanuel More, who, it was reported, had advised the inhabitants of the district where he resided, not to submit to the law which subjected them to distraint for tithe, for the purpose of asking noble Lords opposite if any attempt had been made to collect evidence of the fact, and, in the event of evidence being found, if it was intended to prosecute the offender?
Viscount Melbournedid not know what had been done in respect to the particular case adverted to by the noble Lord. But in other cases of a similar nature he knew that attempts had been made to collect evidence.

HOLLAND AND BELGIUM.
The Earl of Aberdeenhad yesterday stated that he was desirous of taking the first opportunity, after seeing the treaty which had been laid upon the table on Thursday last, of offering some observations to their Lordships upon the subject, but the absence of the noble Lord yesterday prevented him from doing so. It was not, however, his intention then, nor was it his intention now, to enter into the details of the treaty. Other opportunities more convenient than the present would occur for the purpose; and he had already, upon one or two occasions, availed himself of their Lordships' indulgence to offer observations upon the subject. He would only say now, that every day served to strengthen his conviction of the disastrous consequences of this treaty, that he was more and more convinced its natural termination must be war, and that the more it was considered the more clearly its impolicy and injustice appeared. But there was one circumstance of a very remarkable nature connected with this treaty. It was thrown upon the table of the House without a single word of comment or explanation, although the noble Earl must perfectly well know that in the whole history of the diplomacy of this country there was no instance of a treaty only ratified by some of the high contracting parties being laid on the table of that House. The treaty presented a case wholly without precedent. On the first day of the Session, his Majesty said in his gracious Speech that a treaty had been concluded by the five Powers for the settlement of the affairs of the Netherlands, and that as soon as it was ratified he would give directions that it should be laid upon the Table. The ratifications were to arrive on the 15th of January. This date was afterwards extended to the 31st of the same month. This day having passed, the noble Earl, by command of his Majesty, laid the treaty upon the Table, not condescending even so much as to say, that it had not been ratified by all the Powers. It was not usual to print the ratifications with treaties, so that they had upon the Table the treaty signed by the Plenipotentiaries of all the five Powers; and, in the absence of the ratification of three of them, they were left to believe, unless they obtained information from some other source, that it had been ratified by all the five. The act professed to be what it was not, the act of five Powers, instead of the act of only
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two of those Powers. He thought that in the circumstances of the case the House might reasonably have expected explanations from the noble Earl. The circumstances of this treaty opened some very difficult and complicated considerations. It was a matter of doubt whether the treaty was in any degree valid, or, the treaty professing to be a reciprocal and general obligation among five Powers, and being executed only by two of them, how far this circumstance affected the validity of the compact. Into this he did not now inquire, although he professed he was not aware whether the five Powers undertook a joint guarantee, or whether each was singly or separately bound. Perhaps this did not admit of a very easy solution, and therefore he should not ask the question. Neither should he ask whether the noble Earl expected the ratification of the three Powers, or when he expected it. When this ratification arrived, if it should ever arrive, the treaty would not be less unjust, nor less impolitic, than at present, but it would then be what it professed to be, the treaty of five Powers, and not the treaty only of England and France. If, on the other hand, it should not arrive, but be finally withheld, then he must conclude that the Ministers of the three Powers had exceeded their instructions. In the present aspect of the affair, it was at least obvious that some explanation was required.
Earl Greyexpressed his regret if his absence yesterday had been productive of inconvenience to any of their Lordships. But it was unavoidable, as he had been engaged with his Majesty in Council until eight o'clock. The noble Earl said, that, in the peculiar circumstances of this treaty, some explanation was required from him. It was not usual, he believed, to accompany the presentation of such treaties with any explanation; nor did the peculiar circumstances of the present case appear to him to create any necessity for explanation, since it was perfectly notorious to everybody who ever read a newspaper that the treaty was not ratified by the five Powers. If an express declaration from him of that fact was required, he now said, that this treaty had been ratified by France, Great Britain, and Belgium. Now, one word as to the practice that such treaties were not presented to Parliament until they had been ratified by all the parties. The habits of his life had not been such

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as to rend or hi in familiar with such subjects. He readily admitted that he had no information or experience which, upon a subject like the present, could entitle him to enter into competition with the noble Lord. But yet, eminent as were the attainments of the noble Earl in this department of knowledge, he did not always prove to be infallible. As an instance, he might mention that, the other night, the noble Earl pronounced the signature of a treaty only in the French language to be a thing wholly unprecedented, but he had scarcely got home before a list was laid before him of a considerable number of treaties which had been signed precisely in the same way. Nor was the noble Earl quite correct in the present instance, for Spain was included among the powers mentioned as parties in the Treaty of Vienna; and that treaty was laid before Parliament, although Spain had not executed it, and did not, in fact, execute it for two years afterwards. They had been much blamed on account of the publicity which had been given to the recent negotiations, and had been told that every step in the proceedings had regularly appeared in the foreign papers. He had felt all the inconvenience of this, and he hoped the ancient and more wholesome practice would soon be revived, and that negotiations would not henceforth be promulgated until they were mature. However, these publications having already taken place, the treaty having also been ratified by France and England, and as much discussion had already arisen upon the subject, in which repeated discussions the noble Earl had been a principal party, he had thought it advisable to lay the treaty before the House. It was a complete transaction as between France and England, and as a transaction between these powers only had it been produced. With respect to the probability of the ratification by the other Powers, the noble Earl did not require any answer. He had, however, no objection to say that he entertained the most sanguine expectations that all the Powers would ratify the treaty at a very early period. The noble Earl was more confident than ever that this treaty would lead to the most disastrous consequences. He could only say, that he was as confident as the noble Lord could be in his opinion, and as ready to defend the grounds of his confidence, that by means of this treaty they had established the peace of Europe, on what, he trusted,
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would prove a secure and lasting foundation.
The Earl of Aberdeensaid, that the present case differed from that of Spain, to which the noble Earl referred as a precedent, inasmuch as that the signatures of the Plenipotentiaries of all the Powers were here affixed to the treaty. The case to which the noble Lord referred bore no resemblance to the present, because there appeared in that case no signature of the Spanish minister. There was no question of recognition in that instance, as the Spanish minister had never signed the treaty. The present transaction, which was incomplete, appeared on the face of it to be complete. The case of the Treaty of Vienna bore no resemblance to it, because there the want of the signature of the minister of Spain was a transaction clear and intelligible on the face of the document. He found no fault with the presentation of the treaty; he only said, the circumstances required explanation. With respect to the future consequences of it, the proper time to judge would be hereafter but at present he would deliver it as his opinion, that England and France had agreed to a treaty which carried war in its front

GLOVE TRADE.
Viscount Strangfordpresented a Petition from the Master Glovers and others connected with the Leather Glove Trade in the City of London, to which the signatures of nearly forty most respectable firms were annexed. The petitioners complained of the almost total ruin brought upon the masters and workmen, to that important branch of national industry, by the free importation of French gloves, and by the inordinate extent to which smuggling in that article was permitted to be carried; and they prayed for a return to the ancient system of protection by means of prohibition. As he certainly was not prepared, without further evidence, to go the length of joining in that prayer, he did wish that instead of it, the petition had contained one for a full and complete inquiry into the causes of that distress which the petitioners notoriously and undeniably suffered —an inquiry which he thought their Lordships could not in common justice and humanity refuse, unless resolved to shut their ears to the cries of a starving and suffering population — a charge which, manifold as were the modes now employed

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of vilifying the House of Lords, would never, he trusted, be brought against that Assembly, whatever might be said or thought of recent proceedings in another place. When he spoke of inquiry, he did not mean a hole-and-corner inquiry, confined to two or three selected and favoured individuals, who derived a discreditable profit from the continuance of abuses and irregularities in the importation of foreign goods, but a fair and open inquiry, embracing all the points of the question, and proving or disproving the allegations of the petitioners by evidence at their Lordships' Bar. Such a petition, he was happy to say, would now be presented, and be supported by advocacy far more powerful than his, and in a quarter far more likely to command their Lordships' attention. The petitioners, whose prayer was now before their Lordships, had requested him briefly to advert to two or three things which had been urged against their claims to the notice and commiseration of Parliament. He must crave their Lordships' permission to do so. In the first place it was said that the quantity of foreign gloves smuggled into this country was so small, owing to the lightness of the duty, that no possible injury could result to the home manufacturer. They asked, in answer to this, whether 4s. per dozen was a light duty on gloves which could be sold here at first cost, duty included, at 12 s. 14 s. 16 s. 18 s. 22 s. and 24 s. per dozen? He might say, a duty of 5s., for such was the duty on the higher-priced gloves, amounting with Customhouse charges and freights, to nearly thirty-five per cent. Now, these gloves could be guaranteed across the channel, and were notoriously and publicly guaranteed for twelve and a-half per cent to fifteen per cent, safe from all accidents, damage, or injury whatever. Was this then a trade, the petitioners asked, which held out no bonus on smuggling? Was not the difference between fifteen per cent and thirty-five per cent a sufficient temptation to practise it? It had been ludicrously stated that the entire quantity of gloves smuggled into the United Kingdom in the course of a-year did not exceed 100 dozens. Noble Lords were perhaps not aware, but they might have ocular demonstration of the fact, by going into any glove manufactory, that 100 dozens of gloves could be packed and compressed in a tin case of eighteen inches square. He did not mean small women's
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gloves, but gloves that would fit the fullest-sized Peer or personage in that House. And would it be pretended that only one of those very portable, and, to the smuggler, very convenient cases of eighteen inches square was smuggled into the United Kingdom in the course of a-year? Let those who would, believe it; he, for one, did not. In the second place, the thriving condition of the trade was inferred from the increased quantity of gloves manufactured. He had yet to learn that the increased quantity of any manufactured article was of itself proof of the prosperity of that manufacture; the true question was, whether this increased quantity was produced at a remunerating rate to the masters and their workmen; and, if otherwise, the proof of prosperity, drawn from increased consumption, fell to the ground. Again, it was said, that the trade must be prosperous because there were now forty or fifty manufactories established in places where there were but twenty or twenty-seven before. How did this question stand? When the prohibitory system ceased, many of the largest and most respectable manufacturers declined business altogether, foreseeing that under the new system their trade could no longer produce interest on the capital employed in it. Those who replaced them were either their foremen or workmen, who, having saved something in the more prosperous times of prohibition, thought that the retirement of their masters made room for them, and so they set up for themselves—with what success their present condition, and that of their families, and the augmentation of the Poor-rates in the places where they were settled, sufficiently attested. This notion, therefore, that the breaking up and Macadamizing a few great and flourishing factories into a number of smaller and inferior ones was a proof of prosperity, did seem, in his humble judgment, to be an absolute fallacy. It was like saying, that a joint of meat which would feed five persons was increased in its size and power of yielding nutriment by being carved and subdivided into fifty smaller pieces. The plain truth of the matter was, that the glove trade could not afford the profits of the master in addition to the wages of the workman. So the workmen started up into masters, and each man's miserable garret became his more miserable manufactory. And this was called an increase in the number of masters and of manu-

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factories. Now, in the next place, with regard to the increased importation of skins. Was it pretended that all these skins had been made into gloves? To say nothing of their employment for books, for shoes, for carriage lining, and for 100 other uses, he should like to know what quantity of them had been re-exported to the continent, from the utter impossibility of working them up in this country with any thing like a profit. He believed that the attention of the noble President of the Board of Trade had been directed to this point on the 17th of last December; at least he had seen a very courteous letter from that noble Lord stating that the matter should receive his fullest consideration. In truth he was enabled to say, not only with reference to that subject, but to other applications, that the attention of the noble Lord to the various deputations which waited upon him on these matters gave the greatest satisfaction. They all concurred in acknowledging that he would be the best President of the Board of Trade ever known if (for on these occasions there must always be an if) he did not happen to have a Vice-President under him. Lastly, with respect to the injurious effects which the introduction of what were called Berlin gloves had had upon the leather glove trade, he would beg leave, in the first place, to state, that this was not by any means a new trade, sprung up within the last twelvemonths, as had been fallaciously pretended. It had now existed some years, and, therefore, the recency of the introduction of this article into common wear could not be assumed as the cause of the actual decline in the leather-glove trade. But it so happened, moreover, that a very large portion of these gloves were made by the leather-glove-makers themselves. Admitting, however, that an equally large portion were manufactured in Leicester, or Nottingham, or elsewhere, what did this prove but, that the stocking trade having become less profitable, the manufacturers added to their business the making of Berlins? He was instructed, besides, by the petitioners, to declare (and he honoured the English feeling which prompted the declaration), that they were not disposed to complain, and that they did not complain, of any fair, natural, and honourable competition, in any branch of industry, with their own countrymen and fellow-subjects. What they complained of was, the not natural,
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the not fair, the not honourable preference accorded to the foreign workman over them and theirs—a preference which, he must be allowed to say was not the result of fashion or taste, or of superior excellence in the article so prepared, but was solely the consequence of the false and fatal principle, that cheapness was the only thing at all worthy of the consideration of Statesmen—the one great summum bonum, the idol to which all our best and most valuable national interests were, one after another, to be sacrificed. He begged pardon for thus trespassing on their Lordships' time, and concluded by moving that the petition should lie on the Table.
Lord Aucklanddisclaimed any compliments paid to him at the expense of his right hon. friend. Both of them, and all the other members of his Majesty's Government, were most anxious to do all that was safe and practicable for the relief of trade. He believed a great deal of misconception had gone forth upon this subject, both as to the inducements held out to illicit trade, and the quantity of gloves imported. Both Custom-house officers and smugglers had been examined, and they had proved by calculations that the profits were too small on this article to be a strong inducement to smuggling. In respect to foreign silks, the profits being very considerable, the inducements were admitted to be proportionably the greater. He was certain that if the advice of the petitioners were followed, and the prohibitory system again introduced, it would only add to the wealth of the smuggler.
Lord Wynfordobserved, that, from some cause or other, great distress prevailed throughout the country, and that Parliament should do all in its power to afford relief. The most effectual way to discover if any remedy could be applied was, to institute a full and efficient inquiry into the state of trade in all its branches. The depression of the glove trade would be found, he was afraid, only a feature of the general depression.
Viscount Strangfordsaid, that he could not pretend to contest the accuracy of the statements of the noble Baron opposite, as to the degree to which smuggling had been carried on, as the noble Baron had possessed advantages far superior to any which had ever fallen to his or he believed to the lot of most other men. On the noble Baron's own shewing he had obtained the

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auricular confessions of smugglers, the last persons from whom he should have expected an avowal that smuggling did exist. He had the authority of a more respectable class for repeating that smuggling did prevail to a very great extent, and that it was principally carried on in the manner which he had described; the goods smuggled being thus secured from mildew, damp, and other injuries. With respect to Berlin gloves, he had learned from the best authority that the trade had subsisted for many years, and that, therefore, it was not any new injury to the leather-glove trade, especially (as he had stated before), since the leather-glove makers themselves manufactured that article in considerable quantities. With regard to what had fallen from his noble and learned friend behind him, he would repeat that the inquiry to which he had alluded would be proposed, not by himself, but by parties far more deserving of their Lordships' attention. He concluded by presenting another petition, with a very great number of signatures, from the glovers and others of Great Torrington, in the county of Devon.
Petitions laid on the Table.