Lords Sitting of 14 August 1832

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a third time:—Roman Catholic Bequests; Assessed Taxes; Composition; Laud Revenues (Scotland); Lord Chancellor's Salary.
Petitions presented. By the Duke of WELLINGTON, from Berbice, not to have Relief tacked to adopting the Orders in Council.—By the Earl of ROSSLYN, from Merchants of London, for Protection for the Rights of the Holders of Greek Bonds of 1824.

PARTY PROCESSIONS (IRELAND).
On the Motion of Viscount Melbourne, the House went into Committee on the Party Processions (Ireland) Bill.
The Duke of Wellingtonmoved, as an Amendment on the preamble of the Bill, that the word "religious" should be left out, as by that means the Bill would be more general in its effect.
The Earl of Glengallthought it very desirous that this Amendment should be adopted.
The Marquess of Westmeathalso supported the Amendment, and complained that the Bill was directed against one por-
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tion of the people of Ireland—the Protestants. All he wanted was, to take this sting out of it, which might be done by the Amendment proposed.
Earl Greyprotested against the insinuation of the noble Marquess who had last spoken, that the Bill was directed against the Protestant portion of the Irish community. On the contrary, the object of the Bill was to put down and to prevent all assemblies or meetings that were calculated to excite religious animosities, and which so much tended to endanger the peace of that country. It had been said, that the law was sufficiently strong to accomplish this object, and that, therefore, it was unnecessary to come to Parliament for assistance; but he would remind their Lordships, that though proclamations had been issued by the Lord Lieutenant against such assemblies, yet those proclamations had been set at nought, and trodden under foot, and he could assure their Lordships, that letters which had been received from Ireland, stated, that the peace of Ireland could never be permanently established or secured, unless some such law as that now proposed was passed. With respect to the Amendment proposed by the noble Duke, he must say, that he thought it would go very far to affect many innocent assemblies and processions, which, he was sure, the noble Duke would be sorry to suppress.
The Duke of Wellingtoncould not see how it would affect innocent bodies, for the very preamble of the Bill showed that its provisions were only directed to bodies carrying fire-arras, or bearing emblems calculated to excite religious animosities. His object in proposing the Amendment was to make the Bill more general.
Earl Greyhoped, that as the objection of the noble Duke was not to the principle of the Bill, that he would allow it to pass its present stage, and reserve his Amendment until the third reading.
The Duke of Wellington acquiesced.
The Bill went through the Committee.
The House resumed.

FORGERY.
On the question that the Report of the Forgery Bill be brought up.
The Earl of Rosslyn, in the absence of his noble and learned friend (Lord Wynford), who had last night expressed his intention to submit an Amendment, so as to make an exception in the cases of the forgery of wills and powers of attorney, from the other cases of forgery for which the Bill provided, begged leave to move, instead of that Amend-

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ment, of which his noble and learned friend had given notice a clause having the same effect to exclude from the provisions of the Bill, all persons convicted of the forgery, or altering any will, codicil, or testamentary document, or writing, with intent to defraud any body corporate, or any person or persons whatsoever; and all persons convicted of the forgery or altering any power of attorney, for the transfer of stock in any of the public funds, either in the Bank of England, the South Sea House, or in the Bank of Ireland, with intent to defraud any corporate body, or any person whatsoever; and that all such parties so convicted should be punishable with death.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that his opinion upon this subject remained the same as he had last night expressed it to their Lordships, and he certainly could not bring his mind to take that distinction between the forgery of wills and powers of attorney, and the forgery of negotiable securities, which the noble and learned Lord, who was not now in his place, and for whose opinion he (the Lord Chancellor) had the greatest respect, had adopted. He had, on a former occasion, stated to their Lordships the reasons why he could not make that distinction which it was now sought to establish. He was willing to admit that a distinction was to be made in cases of the forgery of powers of attorney to this extent—that in such cases the certainty of having parties to prosecute was much greater than in others. With respect to the forgery of wills, he well remembered when the subject was last under discussion in this House in the year 1830, when a noble Marquess had introduced a hill on this subject from the other House of Parliament, the main force of the argument against that measure rested on the distinction which was then taken with respect to wills. The reason why the law had been so severe, arose from the facility with which forgeries of negotiable securities could be carried into effect, and, therefore, the same argument which would retain the capital punishment in cases of the forgery of wills and powers of attorney, would equally apply for retaining it in all cases. Indeed, he thought it more properly applied to the retention of the punishment of death in cases of the forgery of negotiable securities, than in the forgery of wills or powers of attorney. The facility was greater to forge a check than to forge a will. In the latter case, the party forging had to undergo a scrutiny from
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doctors and surrogates without number, while in the case of a check he had only to make his appearance once. It was true that this difficulty might be got over by a combination, but then a conspiracy of that kind always multiplied the risk a thousand fold; and, therefore, it was, that he thought if there was one case of forgery for which the capital punishment ought to be inflicted, it certainly ought to be for the forgery of negotiable securities; and he equally thought, that if there was any case in which the capital punishment ought to be rejected, it was in the cases of the forgeries of wills and powers of attorney. This was the argument which had been used in both Houses of Parliament; and having already, on a former occasion, stated his reasons for objecting to this Amendment, he would not now trouble their Lordships further than to say, that though he should not now oppose the Amendment, yet he at the same time felt it his duty to protest against it.
The Bishop of Herefordsaid, he should be extremely sorry if the opinions which he advocated could take away any real securities that at present existed against the commission of this offence. He thought, however, that the punishment of death gave no security, for it prevented many from prosecuting; and criminals relying upon this, committed the offence from which they would have been deterred were there a certainty of the infliction of the minor punishment. Many of the petitions which had been presented to their Lordships stated, that the reluctance of parties to prosecute, of Juries to convict, and of Judges to execute, had rather destroyed than secured the interests which it was desired to protect. He should oppose the exceptions of the noble Lord.
Earl Greysaid, that his conviction on this matter was founded rather upon opinions than upon facts. The only question to be considered was, whether the introduction of those exceptions would prevent prosecutions, and the subsequent execution of the law in such cases. He did not think that it would have such an effect. He remembered, indeed, that an instance had been quoted in which sympathy had been shown for the fate of a culprit of this description (he alluded to the case of the late Mr. Fauntleroy). He (Earl Grey) however, felt no such sympathy; for if ever a man deserved the full penalty of the law, when he recollected the number and magnitude of his crimes, and

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their deplorable consequences to others, he must say that Fauntleroy was that man. There was also a morbid sympathy expressed for that atrocious murderer Thurtell, but he did not think that that sort of feeling prevailed to any great extent. His opinion upon the whole was in favour of the exceptions, and he had the less reluctance in coming to such a conclusion, because, if found to be useless or impolitic in their operation, it would be always in their power to remove them.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that professional men saw a great deal more of the effects of capital punishments in preventing parties from prosecuting than could be possibly brought under the notice of those who were not professional.
The Clause agreed to and Report received.