EDUCATION (IRELAND)—PETITION. (Hansard, 13 April 1832)

Lord Holland
presented a Petition in favour of the new Ministerial System of Education in Ireland, agreed upon unanimously by the clergy of those bodies of Protestant Dissenters in and within twelve miles of the metropolis, known under the designation of the Three Denominations—Presbyterians, Baptists, and Independents. The prayer of the petition was, that their Lordships would give their assent and support to the system of National Education in Ireland proposed by his Majesty's Ministers. He did not mean, by anything he might say in presenting the petition to provoke a discussion on the subject of the new system of Education in Ireland. He should be sorry to create any discussion that was likely to interfere with that most important question which was at present pending in their Lordships' House; but it was his bounden duty on presenting the petition to describe who and what the petitioners were. They were not a corporate body, and therefore he did not propose that the petitions should be received as that of a corporate body. He was aware that it could be received only as the petition of those who signed it. But, in point of fact, they did form a most important, opulent, and influential portion of the great mass of the community, and had always been recognised as a most important body under the name of Protestant Dissenters, ever since the accession of the House of Hanover. These petitioners represented 36,000 of the most opulent and influential of that most respectable body—a body to which for its vigorous support of the principles of civil and religious liberty, and the right of private judgment, the country owed such a 324 heavy debt of gratitude, and to which he certainly felt most grateful. He did not, however, mean to take up the time of their Lordships by pronouncing any lengthened eulogium on this body. But he knew, notwithstanding the serious differences on the points of faith between themselves, they had, after much deliberation and consideration, unanimously agreed to petition their Lordships in support of the system of national education in Ireland proposed by his Majesty's Ministers. They were called The Three Denominations because, at the passing of the Toleration Act, they were divided into the three separate bodies of Presbyterians, Baptists, and Independents, for the purpose of more convenient correspondence with Government. They were all decided supporters of the right of private judgment, and the free use and circulation of the Scriptures; and having, after mature deliberation, agreed on this petition, he hoped that it would be the means of allaying the apprehensions, and dissipating much of the idle delusion which prevailed on this subject, both in this House and elsewhere. He moved that the petition, which was a very short one, be read.

The Earl of Roden
said, the noble Baron seemed to consider that a delusion existed in the minds of these other petitioners who had prayed their Lordships not to sanction the proposed system of education in Ireland. If such was the case, all he could say was, it was a delusion shared by the great mass of Protestants in Great Britain and in Ireland. He did not mean to cast any imputation on the noble Lord; but he was not surprised that he had been selected to present the petition, as he observed that several of those who signed it were Socinians. Neither was he surprised that they at least were agreed upon the propriety of adopting a system which went to exclude the use of the whole Bible from the people.

Lord Holland
It was signed certainly by his most respected friend, Mr. William Smith, and many most respectable persons of the same persuasion. But he might venture to say, that less than one-third of the petitioners were Unitarians. As to the writings of Socinus, perhaps the, noble Lord opposite had read more of them than he had done. A great body of the petitioners held the doctrine of the Trinity, and the other high Calvinistic doctrines; 325 and he believed that even the right reverend Prelates would not wish to exclude from the hands of the student of divinity the works of Doctor Lardner. But whatever they might be, whether Trinitarians or Unitarians, they had a right to petition their Lordships on this subject; and however differing among themselves, they had unanimously agreed upon this petition.

The Earl of Wicklow
said, the noble Baron, while disclaiming discussion, had contrived to make two speeches on the subject of education in Ireland. This was, however, he believed, the first petition which had come from any part of the country in favour of the new plan adopted by Ministers. He would in a few days make a motion for a return of the number of petitions which had been presented on this subject, in order that it might be seen what was the opinion of the public upon it. Noble Lords opposite called upon the House to agree to the Bill for Reform, on the ground that the opinion of the country had been pronounced in its favour. He might with greater reason, on the same ground, call on their Lordships to reject the newly-adopted plan of education in Ireland.

The Bishop of Bristol
did not object to the receiving of the petition, but he was apprehensive that this new system of education would go to supersede the use of the Scriptures in the schools, and thereby prevent a fair competition between the Protestant and Catholic. He must also protest against an opinion which seemed to prevail, that the Civil Magistrate had no right to interfere in order to protect the progress of the truth. An obligation to do that had long been felt and acted upon by the Legislature of this country in its endeavours to promote the interest of Protestantism. He had no wish to intimate that his Majesty's Ministers entertained any views hostile to that object, but he was apprehensive that the measure in contemplation might obstruct and tend to supersede the general use of, and reference to the entire volume of the Scriptures, by the free use of which alone religious errors could be removed, and without which no just system even of moral education could be grounded.

§ Earl Grey
said, it certainly was not his intention to enter at the present moment, into a defence of his Majesty's Government, or to promote a discussion with respect to the conduct pursued by them in 326 reference to the new system of national education for Ireland, the more particularly when he recollected the importance of the question which awaited the decision of their Lordships that evening. All, therefore, that he would state, upon the present occasion was, that Ministers were most certainly not opposed to the free circulation of the Scriptures; on the contrary, they were as anxious and as sincerely affected wards Protestantism as any of his Majesty's subjects, not even excepting the right reverend Prelates themselves; and so far from wishing to exclude the Bible, there was an express regulation made, whereby the free use of the Bible was provided for; the general system, however, being so constructed, as not to defeat the great object of giving national education to the people at large. He would not trouble their Lordships by going further into this subject at the present moment; but at the proper time, he should be prepared to maintain the propriety of the grounds on which his Majesty's Government had acted.

Lord Ellenborough
said, the noble Earl had stated that it was not his wish to promote discussion on this subject; but nothing was so likely to produce that effect as the course which the noble Earl had taken. He did not question the motives or objects of Ministers, but he differed in toto, from them with respect to the proposed system; at the same time he perfectly agreed with the noble Earl that nothing would be more inconvenient than to enter into a discussion on this subject at the present moment; and on that ground alone it was, that he would not reply to the observations of the noble Earl.

§ Earl Grey
had only stated the object of Ministers, and, at the same time, claimed credit on their part for entertaining a sincere desire to promote the Protestant interests, and to provide religious education. He had, moreover, distinctly reserved his opinion as to the means to be taken to carry those objects into effect to a more convenient time. Nothing, he thought, could be less likely to create a discussion than the course he had taken.

§ Earl Grey
said, that he had now to present a petition from a body of Dissenting ministers in London. These were men who held all the doctrines of the Church of England, and who, but for some slight 327 circumstances, would not object to sign the Thirty-nine Articles. They could not be accused of any wish to restrain the circulation of the Scriptures, and yet they approved of the plan of education recently adopted in Ireland. The petition had been placed in his hands by Drs. Bentley and Fletcher, who represented a body actuated by the purest spirit of Christian charity. He would beg leave to move that the petition be read, as he thought nothing could be more creditable to the moral and religious feelings of those who signed it.

Lord Ellenborough
said, that the petitioners seemed to imagine that if Parliament did not make this grant, there would be no education in Ireland; but that would be a great mistake, as probably two-thirds of the schools in connexion with the Kildare-street Society, would be kept up and supported by the exertions of private individuals. What was complained of with respect to the new plan of education in Ireland was this—that its practical effect would be greatly injurious to the education of Protestants. From the statement made by a right hon. Gentleman in another place, it seemed that one charge against the Kildare-street Society was, that they did not make that fair distribution of the funds committed to their management which would give equal advantages to the children of Catholics as well as Protestants. Now, it appeared that in the schools there were an equal number of Catholic and Protestant children, though the number of the former in the country was five to one greater than the latter. If the object was, to have the number of Catholic children in the schools in a greater degree proportioned to their numbers in the country, the effect of the new regulation would be to displace 41,000 Protestant children, and to put so many Catholics in their room.

§ Earl Grey
said, the object was, not to displace the Protestant children, but so to model the whole system, as that a greater number of Catholic children might avail themselves of the advantages which those schools gave.