§ The Earl of Aberdeensaid, that not having been present in the House on a former evening, he was unable to state precisely the terms in which the noble Earl (the First Lord of the Treasury) had contradicted a statement which had been made, during a preceding discussion, by himself as well as by the noble Duke 112 (Wellington) near him, respecting the transactions of the French Admiral in the Tagus, and more especially respecting that part of those transactions which related to an attempt on the part of the French Admiral to obtain for the French nation certain commercial advantages from Portugal. He had been informed, however, and he believed, with a degree of accuracy on which he might safely depend, that the noble Earl had stated, that a reference on this subject had been made to the French government, and that the French government, having expressed great surprise at the statement, had declared that there was no truth in the statement. The noble Earl, too, as he had been informed, had accompanied this communication with a glowing eulogy upon the good faith of the French government. It was not for him to object to the noble Earl passing eulogies on whom he pleased, but he could not help observing, that, knowing what the noble Earl, must know, and seeing what the noble Earl could not help seeing, he was greatly surprised that the noble Earl should have ventured to have contradicted on such authority a fact which had been positively stated by the noble Duke and himself. His case was a very simple one; and if he was obliged to re-state it, and to substantiate every syllable that had fallen from himself and from the noble Duke, the fault rested with the noble Earl, and not with him or with his noble friend. Their Lordships might recollect, that on a former occasion he had adverted to the entrance of the French fleet into the Tagus, and to the convention of the 14th of July, by which convention the French Admiral engaged to send away the greater part of his fleet within ten days. Before, however, those ten days had expired—on the 22nd of July—the French Admiral proposed a sort of supplementary convention, the object of which was, to extort from the Portuguese government further concessions, and to obtain from Portugal commercial advantages for the French. This was the statement which he had, on the occasion he had before alluded to, made to their Lordships. When he made that statement, he spoke with the convention in his hand, and in again addressing their Lordships, he also spoke with that convention in his hand. On the former occasion, however, he had done little more than allude to the contents of the convention, and he had called the attention of their Lordships 113 to no other part of those contents than that in which the commercial interest of this country was concerned. But now he felt himself called upon to state more fully the nature and objects of this convention. It consisted of eight articles: and, before proceeding to notice them, it was, perhaps, necessary for him to state, that the only cause he had ever understood to exist for this convention—for it was not founded upon any infraction of the former convention—arose out of some erroneous statements which had appeared in certain non-official Portuguese journals, he believed in some Oporto newspapers. This, he repeated, was the only cause he had ever heard of for this second convention—the first article of which provided, that the erroneous statements complained of should be corrected in the Lisbon Gazette, the correction having been first submitted to the revisal and approval of the French Admiral. The second article related to French travellers arriving at Lisbon. Instead of being compelled to remain in port, there was to be an immediate verification of their passports, and they were to be admitted without, delay. Agents were to be appointed, who would be charged with the execution of the duty of verifying the passports. The third article related to alleged insults which had been offered to the first French ship which arrived under the tricoloured flag in the Portuguese ports; and the French Admiral expressed himself satisfied with the explanations given therein upon that, subject. The fourth article was that which intimately concerned this country; and to that he must entreat the particular attention of their Lordships, especially as it was the article upon which he had founded the statement which the noble Earl had contradicted. First, however, he must inform their Lordships, that the proposition of the French Admiral was very different from what it might be imagined to have been, by the tenour of the article agreed upon. The proposition of the French Admiral might be understood from the answer which was couched in the following terms:—"Sur les représentations de M. I'Amiral, au sujet de la défaveur qui frappe le commerce Francais à Lisbonne, comparativement au commerce de I'Angleterre, M. le Vicomte de Santarem a promis que dans le cas d'un renouvellement de traité avec les pavilions etrangers, son gouvernement serait disposé, et il s'engageait lui même 114 à mettre la France au rang des nations le plus favorisées." The proposition of the French Admiral was considerably modified by the government which it was addressed—by that government which we still called our ally, although we were doing all we could to overthrow it. The fourth article of the convention, therefore, as it was finally drawn up, merely declared that the Portuguese government was disposed to treat upon commercial affairs advantageously to France, and reciprocally to Portugal. It ran in the following words:—Sur les reprèsentations de M. I'Amiral, au sujet de la défaveur qui frappe le commerce Francais à Lisbonne, M. le Vicomte de Santarem ayant fait des explications sur ce sujet, a declaré que dans le cas de se trailer dans I'avenir des arrangemens de commerce, le gouvernement Portugais est disposé à trailer sur cela d'une maniàere avantageuse pour la France et reciproquement pour le Portugal." The fifth article of the convention provided, that indemnity should be given to the French subjects in Portugal. The sixth article declared, that all French subjects should be set at liberty who were in confinement upon accusations of having committed political offences. The seventh article provided for the security of French subjects in the absence of the squadron, and placed them entirely under the protection of their own government. A French gentleman was to be established at Lisbon as Judge Conservator, who would be an agent of the French government, and whose duty it would be to watch over the liberty and safety of French subjects. Finally, the eighth article of the treaty confirmed the former convention, but upon the condition that the Portuguese government should make no military dispositions for the defence of the fortresses in the Tagus during the stay of the French fleet in those waters. If this convention were signed, then the French Admiral engaged to do that which he had engaged to do by the former convention—namely, to send the greater part of his fleet out of the Tagus. This convention had the signature of Admiral Roussin attached to it. Thus, then, he had given to their Lordships the contents of this convention. The noble Earl would not, he presumed, venture to question the authenticity of the convention; and if not, he thought that he had said sufficient to justify the statement which he and his noble friend had made on a, 115 former occasion, and to show to their Lordships, that that statement was not made without good authority. If, however, the noble Earl should venture to cast the least doubt upon the authenticity of the document which he held in his hand, he should be compelled to trespass further on the attention of the House; but at present he did not think it necessary to say more upon the subject. He had no disposition to make any other observations on this subject, and his only object in thus stating the purport of the convention to their Lordships was, to set himself and his noble friend right with the House, which, he was sure their Lordships would see, had become necessary from the circumstance of the accuracy of the statement which they had made having been impeached by the noble Earl opposite.
§ Earl Greywas not at all surprised that the noble Earl (Aberdeen), with the feeling he had expressed on this subject—with an authority which the noble Earl seemed inclined implicitly to rely upon, and wedded to a particular interpretation of certain acts of which the noble Earl disapproved—he was not, he said, at all surprised, that under these circumstances, the noble Earl should have been anxious to pursue a course which the noble Earl considered necessary in order to set himself and the noble Duke right with the House. He would state at once to the noble Earl and to their Lordships, that the contradiction which he had given to the statement in question, rested exclusively on the authority of the French government, which authority was communicated in a dispatch—he would read a passage from it to their Lordships before he sat down, which had been received by his noble friend, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, from our Ambassador at. Paris. If he had understood the noble Earl rightly in what had fallen from the noble Earl on a former occasion, the noble Earl had said, that the French government were availing themselves of the power and conditions which resulted to them from their having a French squadron in the Tagus, for the purpose of procuring for themselves from Portugal certain commercial advantages, which could only be attained by France at the expense of this country. Now he would explain to their Lordships all that had been communicated to the Government on this subject. Two notes had been transmitted to the Foreign Secretary by 116 Viscount Santarem, the object of which was, to procure the interference of this country in order to effect the restoration of certain vessels which had already been taken by the French, and to prevent the French Admiral carrying away with him those or any other vessels that had belonged to the Portuguese government. It was true that, in one of these notes, the Viscount had said, that the French Admiral was attempting to enter upon negotiations with the Portuguese government—entamer des negotiations, was, he believed, the expression used by the Viscount. The Government, however, had received no intimation of such negotiations having been proposed, either from our Consul at Lisbon, or indeed from any other quarter, although, if the fact had been as the Viscount had stated it to be, it was natural to suppose that, if not from our Consul, at least from some of the many persons engaged in the Portuguese trade, the news of such negotiations would have transpired, and intimation of them have been transmitted to the British Government. Under these circumstances and these considerations, his Majesty's Ministers had not thought the communication which Viscount Santarem had made to them called for their interference, especially as, at the time that communication was made, the French squadron had left the Tagus. Besides, although this representation of the Viscount was made in order to procure the interference of this Government, for the double purpose of preventing the French Admiral taking away some vessels, and of inducing him to restore others, yet in that representation there was nothing stated which could lead the British Government to suppose, that the Portuguese government had in their own power the means of retaining the possession of those vessels. This, however, the British Government knew to be the fact. The French Admiral had stated to the Portuguese government, that he was willing, on his own responsibility, to restore these vessels, if the Portuguese government would release from custody 400 prisoners whom the French Admiral would name. The French Admiral did not propose that these 400 prisoners, all of whom he offered to name, should be set at liberty unconditionally; but that before their release they should engage, on their parole, not to take part in any hostile expedition which might be directed against the existing government 117 of Portugal. Well, under these circumstances it was, that, not hearing any thing of such negotiations from our consul at Lisbon, nor from any of the British merchants engaged in the Portuguese trade, the British Government had not thought that so vague a statement as that which he had communicated to the House, either called for, or would justify, any interference on the part of this country. The noble Earl, however, now referred to a convention consisting of eight articles, one of which was avowedly directed towards a commercial treaty, which treaty the noble Earl told them had been prevented by the Portuguese government. It would surprise the noble Earl, he thought, and he was sure it ought to surprise the noble Earl, to learn that this was the first time that he (Earl Grey) had heard of such a convention, and of this anxiety on the part of the Portuguese government with regard to the commercial interests of this country. He was of course fully aware of the nature of the first convention, which consisted of fourteen articles.
§ Earl GreyPerhaps the noble Earl would allow him to go on. He was fully aware, he said, as others might be (for it was published in the Lisbon Gazette) of the nature of the first convention, which consisted of fourteen articles, and to which were attached six additional articles, making in all twenty; but the six additional articles contained nothing of importance. He had stated to their Lordships, that the contradiction which he had given to the statement of the noble Earl rested exclusively on the authority of the French government, and he had promised to read to their Lordships the passage from the despatch which conveyed to the Government the authority upon which he had made the contradiction of which the noble Earl complained. The despatch was from Lord Granville; it was dated the 9th of September, 1831, and was addressed to Viscount Palmerston. It ran thus:—
My Lord,—Count Sebastiani expressed to me this morning, his surprise at the assertion which has been made in the British Parliament and elsewhere, that the French government, taking advantage of their naval force in the Tagus, had endeavoured to make a commercial treaty with Portugal. Count Sebastiani authorizes me to state to you that Admiral Roussin entered into no commercial negotiation whatever with Portugal.Now, this was the authority on which he 118 had contradicted the statement of the noble Earl, and in making that contradiction he had certainly added an expression of confidence in the honour and good faith of Count Sebastiani and the French government. He begged to assure the noble Earl, that he was far from being disposed at this moment to withdraw that confidence, or to retract the opinion which he then expressed. The noble Earl had stated the grounds on which he had been induced to make the assertion in question, and to which he (Earl Grey) had now offered a contradiction, and had, on his part, stated the authority upon which he rested that contradiction. On which side the truth was, remained to be proved; but, in the mean time, he begged the noble Earl and the House distinctly to understand, that he had not the slightest doubt of the accuracy of the statement made by Count Sebastiani, and that, notwithstanding what had fallen from the noble Earl, he did not harbour the least suspicion of the honour and good faith of the French government.
§ The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that when he spoke on this subject a fortnight ago, he had seen the papers which were in the hands of his noble friend (the Earl of Aberdeen.) From the perusal of these papers it was, that he had said that he was fully convinced that the French Admiral had proposed, by a commercial treaty with Portugal, to place France upon the same footing as the most favoured nation, that was to say, as England—with regard to commerce. He had moreover stated, upon the same authority, that the Portuguese government had resisted this proposal, and that the result of this resistance was, that the convention had not been of such a nature as the French expected and desired. Now, the noble Earl admitted that he had no knowledge of these circumstances when the former debate took place, and also, that the information he possessed on this subject had been received by him since that time. In spite, however, of the information which the noble Earl, had subsequently received, he must repeat, that he was authorized by those documents to say what he had said, and that he adhered to his former assertion. But let him ask the noble Earl how it had happened that our Consul-general at Lisbon—the Consul-general upon whom the noble Earl the other night had passed so eloquent an 119 eulogium—had not, even in September, given the noble Earl information of a negotiation which had been concluded in July? If the noble Earl should think, that he had no reason to complain of this, the noble Earl must at least be struck by the remarkable proof which the circumstance afforded of the total want of confidence of the Portuguese government in our Consul-general. This want of confidence must, to say the least of it, be highly detrimental to British interests in Portugal; and he did think, that for that reason, if no other, the noble Earl ought to inquire carefully into the conduct of that individual, in order to ascertain if there were not some reason for this unfortunate government—for unfortunate he must call it—refusing to place the least confidence in the Consul-general of this country. Government had, it appeared, sent out two ships of war to Portugal; for what purpose he would not inquire. If this were done to give protection to his Majesty's subjects, he could have no objection to it. But he hoped that that protection would be called for on a better foundation than was set forth in published letters with respect to supposed rights and privileges. He did not understand why protection should be given for acts which were against the laws of the country into which those individuals had been received. He admitted that his Majesty's subjects in Portugal had a right to certain privileges, but he denied that there was any privilege by which British subjects in the country of an ally could claim protection if they committed acts contrary to the laws of that country. For his own part, he feared that all the measures which had recently been adopted with reference to Portugal would end in a civil war in Portugal and Spain. He felt very anxious on this subject; and viewing all the circumstances as he did, he was desirous that his Majesty's Government should give a proper check to the Consul-general at Lisbon; and that they should let his Majesty's subjects in Portugal know, that they had no right to seek protection, if they acted in defiance of the law of the country, or if they attempted to disturb the public peace. He would, without hesitation, declare, that if Government proceeded in this way, the lives of none of his Majesty's subjects in Portugal would be safe. He had expressed his sentiments thus freely, because he was anxious to preserve the 120 interests both of Portugal and of this country.
Lord Hollandsaid, that his noble friend was perfectly justified in the statement which he had made on a former occasion. His noble friend had received so clear, so direct, so decided a contradiction from the French minister, of the assertion made by the noble Earl, that he could not, in common justice, have acted otherwise than he had done. When the noble Earl, relying probably on public papers and private letters, commented on the negotiation and convention between France and Portugal, surely it was incumbent on the head of the Government of this country to declare, that looking to the official information, he had no reason to believe that the observations of the noble Earl were well founded. Perhaps the noble Lords over-the-way would permit him to imitate the conduct which they pursued in the new province that they had undertaken, and, instead of answering all their interrogatories, would allow him to put a question to them. He certainly had the same reason and the same right to put a question to them as they had to press many questions on the Government. Those noble Lords had talked very loudly about their authority: they had stated to the House, that they had undoubted authority for all that they asserted. Now, he was perfectly convinced, that the noble Duke and the noble Earl were quite incapable of stating in that House, as a fact, that which they did not believe to be a fact; but one thing they had not stated, and that was, on what authority they had described the French convention with Portugal as they had done. The noble Earl laughed, but that laugh did not afford sufficient proof that the question which he had put was not a fit and proper one. It had been alleged, that the Consul at Lisbon had behaved improperly; an attack had been made on that honourable, and able, and vigilant gentleman; the noble Lords opposite took it for granted, that an obnoxious convention had been signed, that the propositions made by the French Admiral were generally known, although no information on the subject had been transmitted to this country, and that our Consul had grossly neglected his duty, or had totally lost the confidence of the Portuguese government. Now, surely, when this was made a matter of charge against a gentleman who was abroad, he had, a 121 right to ask on what ground that charge rested? If it were demanded of Ministers whether they had any authority for giving credit to this accusation, they must at once say that they had none. So far, therefore, they were at issue with the noble Lords opposite on the question of fact. There could, he presumed, be no doubt, that on this, or on any other subject, no noble Lord would assert that which he did not firmly believe. The question, then, in its present stage, must be argued with reference to probabilities. Now, looking at the subject in that point of view, he could not conceive why the convention should have been postponed by the French Admiral for eight or ten days, supposing that it was meant to operate against the English Government, instead of being pressed forward with all possible haste. But it appeared that the noble Earl over-the-way had been employed for the last three years in search of the virtues of Don Miguel. He believed, that the noble Earl had not had much sport in the course of his search, and had started very little game. But at length he had discovered the mighty secret. He had found that Don Miguel, however, ill treated, remained true to the English interest; that "though deserted in his utmost need" by the English Government, he remained firm to his engagements, and rejected a certain portion of the convention. Now he would try this assertion by the standard of probability, and he would ask, which was the more probable, that such a fact, if it had existence, did not reach the English Government, or that the noble Lords were misinformed on the subject? Let it be remembered, that at the commencement of this Session of Parliament, the noble Earl began by stating facts, as they were called, with respect to the conduct of this Government, in circumstances connected with Lisbon and Terceira, which did not deserve in either instance the description that he had given of them. The noble Earl stated, that this Government had refused the use of British chartered vessels to Don Miguel at Lisbon. Now what was the fact in this instance? Why, there was felt on the part of the commander there, a doubt on the subject. He was not certain whether he would be authorised to accede to the request which had been made; and he sent home to this country, without delay, to procure the necessary information. Not an hour was lost in having the 122 law on the subject explained, and when it was explained, as little time was lost in allowing the vessels to go out, being legally employed by the Government. But then the noble Earl had further stated, that at Terceira a very different measure was adopted. There, the noble Earl asserted, this Government had submitted to outrages the most unexampled—to acts that were decidedly opposed to the law of nations, against which they had made no representation, they had offered no remonstrance. The whole of this matter would be placed before their Lordships, with the regular documents, in the course of a few days, and therefore he should not dwell at any length upon it. But what was the fact in this case? Why, it was found, that an irregularity had been committed, with reference to certain British vessels; and the moment that that irregularity was known, measures were taken to obtain satisfaction for it. No later than the 5th of last month, the noble Earl had, from his place opposite, told them, that the people of the Azores were hostile to the new Government. The noble Earl and his friends, who were not in general friendly to popular feeling—who, above all things, seemed to dread democracy—appealed not withstanding to popular feeling when it suited their purpose. In this particular instance, however, all that they had said about popular feeling in the Azores had been completely disproved. On the 5th of August the noble Earl said, that the people of Terceira he believed, but the people of the other islands he positively knew, were in favour of Don Miguel, and were opposed to the military commission or regency which had been established. Now, every thing that had since occurred proved, that this statement was entirely at variance with the fact. Not only did Terceira remain firm to the new order of things, but an expedition fitted out from that place had captured the Island of St. Michael. After the noble Earl had made the statement to which he had alluded, it was ascertained from an officer commanding one of his Majesty's ships—than whom a more gallant or more experienced officer did not exist—who had recently left the Azores, that a small body of troops sent from Terceira, without artillery, had taken the populous island of St. Michael's. They, with the assistance, be it observed, of the people of the island, captured the artillery of the enemy, and seized on their fortified camp. The gallant 123 commander to whom he had alluded felt himself called upon to bear testimony to the skill, gallantry, and courage of those who had achieved this conquest; and he was not less pleased with their conduct after the victory, the characteristics of which were mercy and humanity. In all that he had thus said, he only meant to have it understood, that the noble Earl might have been misinformed, that he might have been mistaken. He should now touch upon the circumstance of the sailing of the French fleet for the Tagus. When that event took place, they were told, with many grave looks, nods, winks, and cheers, that the fleet had not sailed for the purpose of accomplishing an accommodation with Portugal; and they were pretty plainly told, that they would soon find, that France had other and very different objects in view [Hear, hear]. The noble Earl cried "Hear, hear." Now he should be glad to know, what other object, what other views the conduct of the French had since manifested? It was said, "Oh, they are sending a fleet out for the purpose of revolutionizing Portugal." Well, they proceeded to Portugal—they remained for a fortnight or three weeks in the Tagus; and yet there was no oppressive exaction—there was no attempt at revolution. The French went away, and left Don Miguel to himself. Now, said the noble Earl, you shall see how closely the people will rally round their adopted monarch. But what occurred immediately after the departure of the French? Why, a mutiny took place, with which the French were wholly unconnected. This proved two facts—first, that there did exist strong disaffection in Portugal; and secondly, that the French had nothing to do with the excitement of that feeling. The information which some parties in this country received from Portugal was really amusing. He supposed it gave as much pleasure to them, as the rumour which reached Don Miguel gave to him, when he heard that the Reform Bill was to be thrown out, and that the present Government were likely to be dismissed from office. It certainly appeared that a sweet intercourse was kept up between some individuals in this country and the court of Don Miguel. They could waft sighs and hopes alternately from the Tagus to the Thames, and from the Thames to the Tagus; but the statements which had been made in that House, and 124 which had been repeatedly controverted, proved how little dependence was to be placed on the facts which were elicited by that species of communication. With respect to the convention alluded to by the noble Earl, he knew nothing. The Convention of the 14th of July contained fourteen Articles which had been published, besides six which were not published, and it was just possible, that those six might have been reduced into four. Nothing which had transpired, however, proved that these Articles, whether six, four, or eight, differed from the other Convention.
§ The Earl of Aberdeendid not think, that the noble Lord who had just sat down, could lay his hand upon his heart, and say that the objects of the French government, in their conduct towards Portugal, were not such as he had stated them to be. Indeed the noble Lord seemed to be speaking of what he really knew nothing about. He thought, that the noble Lord might at least have hesitated before he gave currency to a contradiction of what he and his noble friend near him (the Duke of Wellington) had stated, unless his purpose was merely to amuse himself and the House. But if the noble Lord was really sincere in the opinions which he had stated, he held in his hand the Lisbon Gazette, in which the articles of the Convention were published, in compliance with the first article; and he could satisfy the noble Lord, from that paper, of the facts which he seemed to doubt. But he should not dwell further on the subject, because he himself was fully satisfied of the accuracy of his own statements. In his opinion it was the duty of every Member of Parliament to inform himself, as well as he could, of every transaction with a foreign government, so far as the honour and interest of his country were concerned. And having done so, he thought it was proper to lay his information before the Legislature, and thus to enable the Government to make what use of it they might think fit. He had pursued this course, and he thus gave the noble Earl an opportunity of taking such steps as he might deem expedient. As to what had fallen from the noble Baron opposite, he would only say, that till he could rail the seal from those official documents, it would not alter the case. With respect to his (Lord Aberdeen's) assertion, as to the refusal to allow two British ships to convey information to Portuguese vessels coming into 125 Lisbon, that a French force was stationed in that part, he would explain and defend it. He had said, when he learned that British shipping were employed against the Azores by the government of Terceira, that a different conduct had been pursued at Lisbon; for that the British Consul there (not the British Government) had detained British vessels, and prevented them from giving notice to ships homeward bound to Lisbon, having British property on board, that a French force was in the harbour. That, he maintained, was true to the letter. The British Consul had so acted. He did not, and he never could believe, that the British Government had sanctioned any such proceeding. But what happened in consequence of the conduct of the British Consul? Why, the French fleet captured many vessels; and if the British Consul had not detained those ships, the vessels thus taken must have escaped, The most serious inconvenience resulted from that proceeding. He complained of that, knowing, as he did, that very unpleasant consequences were produced by it; and he must still contend, notwithstanding the observation of the noble Baron, that the statement he made was perfectly correct. The noble Lord had animadverted on an observation formerly made by him, when he said, that the French fleet had proceeded to the Tagus with a different view from that of mere restitution. That undoubtedly was his opinion then, and he would add, that it was his opinion still. He believed that individuals expected very great events in that country after the arrival of the French fleet. Indeed, the British Consul at Lisbon had such expectations, and expressed his hopes and feelings very strongly on that subject. "But," said the noble Lord, "after the departure of the French, a mutiny, a disturbance took place, whereas none occurred while they were in the Tagus." Certainly an attempt at a rising, a sort of mutiny, had occurred, but he must say, that the foundation on which the noble Lord had rested this part of his argument confirmed every sentiment that he (Lord Aberdeen) had ever put forth on this subject. The insurgents, on the occasion referred to, were joined by no one, and they did not amount to more than 300. Both the civil and the military force opposed them, and therefore he had a right to state what he had formerly done with respect to the foundation on which 126 the Portugusee government stood. He had no personal object or interest in making those statements. He acted on information which had been communicated to him, and on which he thought he could rely, and his decided belief was, that if Portugal were left to itself, the present Government of that country would be as firmly established as that of any nation in Europe. Of this he was sure, that much misery must ensue, and that much wretchedness must be produced, if, in consequence of a supply of money from this country, civil war were introduced into Portugal. It would, he was convinced, be found a task of extreme difficulty to overturn that government, whether it were attempted by foreign or domestic means. He merely wished to set himself right on these points; and, admitting that the subject was one of extreme difficulty, he should not pursue it further.
§ Earl Greysaid, it must appear evident to their Lordships, that extreme inconvenience resulted from the introduction of such discussions as the present. He should say nothing whatsoever with respect to the strength or weakness of the Portuguese government; but when the noble Earl alluded to money furnished from England for the purpose of inciting revolt in Portugal, he wished to know whether the noble Earl meant to say, that the Government of this country had concurred in any such proceeding? [The Earl of Aberdeen: "No."] He was very glad to hear the noble Earl say "no," because, if the expression were not explained by the noble Earl, a false and improper inference might be drawn from it. It now appeared, however, that the Government stood acquitted by the noble Earl of having sanctioned or acquiesced in any such proceeding; and he could most positively state, that there was not any foundation for an insinuation of that nature. Whether money had been at all furnished or not, he could not take on himself to say. He certainly had no reason to believe that money had been furnished for the purpose alluded to; but, on the contrary, he had every reason to doubt that there was any foundation for supposing that money had been so applied. The noble Earl, addressing him, had said, "that, seeing what he (Earl Grey) had seen, and knowing what he had known, he was astonished that he 127 should have placed such confidence in the representations of the French government." Now he would repeat, after having seen what he had seen—after having known what he had known—after having obtained all the information which it was in his power to accumulate, that he was inclined to adhere to the opinion which he had formerly expressed; and not having, in the course of these transactions, seen any reason to doubt the good faith of the French government, he considered himself justified in giving credit to the despatch of the French minister. The noble Earl was surprised that he should adhere to the contradiction contained in that despatch, in opposition to a statement made by the noble Earl and the noble Duke near him. If the statement made had been founded on their own knowledge, he certainly should be extremely cautious in entertaining a doubt on the subject. But the noble Earl himself had admitted, that the statement, did not rest on his own knowledge, but that it was derived from the information of others, on which he had every reason to rely, at the same time that he declined stating by whom that information was furnished. Now he was certain, and he thought that the noble Earl would not deny the fact, that the information in question must, in the nature of things, have been received from the Portuguese government, who were, of course, interested in giving the best representation they could to any circumstances affecting the character of that government. The noble Earl might have derived his information from very honourable persons, but it was very natural that they should be biassed; and whatever came from them must therefore be taken with certain grains of allowance. He (Earl Grey) had no other knowledge on the subject beyond what he had already stated. The noble Earl had alluded to the Lisbon Gazette. The fact was, that some incorrect statements having appeared on the subject of the negotiation in certain unofficial Portuguese papers, the French insisted that the errors should be corrected in the Lisbon Gazette, which was complied with; and no such article as the noble Earl alluded to, was to be found in that publication. The actual carrying on of the negotiation for special commercial advantages rested on the statement of the noble Earl, founded on the representations of others. Certainly, that statement was brought 128 forward under circumstances that were subject to some suspicion; and it was denied by the French minister, in expressions as strong as language could possibly furnish, that any such transaction had ever taken place. There the matter ended. He did not blame the noble Earl for the paucity of his information; but he would only say, that if individuals furnished noble Lords with materials of this kind on which to found attacks upon the Government, they must not be surprised if such proceedings were strenuously opposed—they must not be astonished if they did not produce all the effect that was intended. The noble Duke had said, that the British Consul was highly to blame, in not having apprised the Government of what he knew. If the British Consul were in possession of such knowledge as it was alleged that he was master of, and did not communicate it to Ministers, then certainly his conduct would have been highly blameable. But from all the experience he had of that gentleman, as well as from a careful review of the whole case, he believed it would be found that the Consul was not in fault; in addition to which they had the express denial of the French government on the subject. The noble Duke said, he would not enter into any observations as to the motives and objects of the conduct which the Government had pursued. He would not put any questions to Ministers as to their object in sending out these vessels, and he expressed a hope that they were not despatched for the purpose of interfering with the Portuguese government. Ministers had no such intention. They had adhered to that line of conduct, the propriety of which the noble Duke had himself admitted. All that he could say on that part of the subject was, that whatever might be the duty of Ministers, with reference to the protection of British subjects, they felt that they had no right, and certainly they had no inclination, to interfere with the law or government of Portugal. In conclusion, the noble Earl repeated, that the contradiction which he had put forth on a former evening rested on the decided assurance of the French minister, which he saw no reason for doubting.
§ The Earl of Aberdeenbegged to inform the noble Earl, the matter referred to was not a question of negotiation; the convention was concluded. He found no fault 129 with the conduct of the noble Earl, he acted from the information he had received. At the same time he must assert, that the authority of his information could not be doubted, for it rested on that of the convention itself. In ordinary times, if the French government attempted to impose injurious conditions upon Portugal, the British Consul would, of course, be the first person to be applied to by the latter Government, and to be informed of its difficulty. But, considering the situation in which Mr. Hoppner had placed himself, and his close connection with the French Admiral—a connection very unusual for a British Consul—it might be expected that he would be the last person to whom the Portuguese government would apply.
Lord Hollandsuggested, that the discussion should be suspended until the necessary documents were before the House.
§ Here the matter terminated.