Lords Sitting of 19 October 1831

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a third time and passsed; Crown Lands; Inclosure; (Standing Orders suspended).
Petitions presented. By two NOBLE LORDS, from the Catholic Inhabitants of Moycullen for the Extension of the Galway Franchise to Catholics, and from the Inhabitants of Silverston, in favour of the Reform Bill.

COAL TRADE.
Lord Wharncliffesaid, that he had learnt that a conversation had taken place in their Lordships' House a few days ago, upon the third reading of the Appropriation Bill, in which a noble friend of his had taken occasion to say something with respect to the operation of the recent removal of the Coal duties. His noble friend had complained that the result of the measure of removing the duties was, to occasion a very considerable loss to the revenue, without any corresponding benefit to the consumer. He stated that the price of coals to the consumer was only 2s. less, and that the difference between that and the 6s. of duty removed must go into some other pockets. He (Lord Wharncliffe) was anxious that the coal-owners should stand clear with the

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public, and he could assure the House, that if the public did not benefit to the full extent of the duties removed, the coal-owners were by no means benefitted by the difference, which had not gone into their pockets. The prices of coals at Newcastle and Sunderland were precisely the same now as they were before the duties were removed; and in point of fact, the coal-owners were losers instead of gainers. When the tax was taken off, the stock in London was extremely low, in consequence of the anticipation generally entertained that the tax would be reduced. The coal-owners continued to supply the market as usual for a few weeks, when the workmen at the pits seeing a favourable opportunity, struck for an increase of wages, and they kept the pits for seven weeks unworked; so that coals were actually imported into Newcastle in order to keep the different steam-engines at work. This had ended in an increase of wages to the amount of from ten to fourteen per cent, and as the price of coals had not increased, the coal-owners were consequently losers to this extent. In addition to this, the workmen by an agreement among themselves, would not work beyond earning a certain sum a day. This state of things was brought on undoubtedly from one of those combinations among the operatives, which caused increased difficulties every day, in carrying on any kind of trade in this country. The result of this combination among the colliers was, that the coal-owners could not supply the markets to the extent of making up their losses sustained by the increase of wages. He would only add, that if the workmen were allowed to proceed as they at present occasionally did, it would strike at the prosperity of the manufactures and commerce of the country. The coal-owners, it was to be feared, would not be able to supply the markets adequately with coals until next spring, if they had to contend with such combinations; but their inclinations and their interest both induced them to furnish an ample supply, as the reduction of price ought to cause an increased consumption which the coal-owners were anxious to meet. He should move, "that there be laid before the House a return of the prices in the London markets of seaborne coals, from the 1st of February to the 17th of October, 1831.
The Earl of Falmouthhad understood
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the noble Duke to have said, that the public had not derived the full advantage of taking off the duties, but he had not understood the noble Duke to say by whom the benefit had been reaped, although the presumption was, that it was the coal-owners.
Motion agreed to.

BANKRUPTCY COURT BILL.
The Lord Chancellor, in moving their Lordships to agree to the Amendments which the Bankruptcy Court Bill had received in the other House, felt it his duty to state to their Lordships what those Amendments were. The first was, the disqualifying of the Judges of the Court from sitting in Parliament, and this he should say was merely supplying what had been an inadvertence in their Lordships' House. There were one or two alterations in the Bill which were of little consequence, but he should open to their Lordships what were the main alterations which had been made in the Bill. The machinery for compensating persons who were to lose by the Bill, was perfectly satisfactory to those who, like Lord Thurlow, were concerned in it, and their Lordships could have no objection to this clause as it now stood. He would merely observe, that no compensation was in any case to be given in the lump, but only according to the claims of each individual. The only material alteration which the Bill had undergone, he would now explain to the House. He had stated in the first instance, that the Judges of the Court were to have retiring pensions after twenty years' service. They were now to have no pensions, and it was in his opinion that it was not necessary to give learned persons in such places retiring pensions. If a man at the Bar received his employment by the year, he had a precarious income, and was subject to various accidents. He might lose his health, become old, or might lose his business, without any fault of his, and he must be exposed to every accident, physical and moral, and to all the changes which those who followed the profession of the law so well knew themselves to be liable to. For these reasons every man of prudence made provision for his family, and when he came upon the Bench he was generally possessed of a considerable fortune. He would ask, why should not the Judges make provision for their families, either by laying up money, or by means of

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that most excellent invention of life-assurance? Why should not a man with a fixed income insure his life as well as a man who possessed a precarious income? In the case of a Judge, he could not see that there was any necessity for a retiring pension. If it should be found that the effect of this doctrine would be to prevent the getting of the assistance of men of sufficient ability and experience from the Bar, or if it should make men adhere pertinaciously to the gains of office after they were unfit for the adequate performance of their duties, then it would be fit that their Lordships should again send the Bill to the other House of Parliament; or rather, as this was a money clause, it would be fit that the other House should of itself revise this clause. He had to move that the Amendments be agreed to.—Ordered accordingly.

EXCHEQUER COURT—(SCOTLAND.)
The Duke of Buccleuchwished to know if the noble and learned Lord would lay upon the Table of the House the returns for which he had moved, relative to the Exchequer Court of Scotland, they were, "An account of the number of cases in the Court of Exchequer in Scotland, distinguishing undefended causes, causes tried, defended causes tried, and causes compromised without any trial, for the last five years, distinguishing each year.
The Lord Chancellorhad no objection whatever to lay the papers upon the Table of the House. He should take the opportunity of his being upon his legs to advert to an observation which had been made relative to the amendment of the Bankrupt-laws themselves. A Commission had been sitting during the whole of the last twelve months, and learned Commissioners had been added to it, in lieu of those who had been promoted to the Bench. The Commissioners had entered into the most important questions of law—such as the law of debtor and creditor and the great subject of imprisonment for debt. They had collected a vast mass of the most important information from persons experienced both in law and in trade, and they had examined between 300 and 400 persons, so that they would be able to make a Report which would be the foundation of some of the most salutary alterations which ever were made upon such great and important subjects. He had been asked whether he intended to abandon the plan
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of local jurisdictions—the plan of making justice more cheap and more accessible to all men. He would answer, that he intended to adopt the salutary suggestions of the present Chief Baron, and to submit to the Commissioners of Legal Inquiry the whole question of those local courts for the purpose of its undergoing the most thorough investigation. In six months or less, a very important Report would be made from the Commissioners upon the subject of the local court jurisdiction.
The Earl of Hardwickebegged to ask his noble and learned Lord, whether it was his intention to make any improvement in the laws respecting creditors who avoided the payment of their just debts by leaving the country, and residing abroad. He now knew a person who resided at Boulogne for this purpose, though he regularly received an income of 800 l. a quarter, from his property in this kingdom.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that the subject which the noble Earl had mentioned was one of the very highest importance, and it had received a due consideration from the Commissioners of Law Inquiry. It would be a very imperfect arrangement which did not provide for cases such as the noble Earl had mentioned. He (the Lord Chancellor) abstained from stating the principles upon which the Commissioners had proceeded; but he would say, that a more shameful, scandalous state of the law could not possibly exist, than that of which persons could avail themselves by going abroad, or living within the rules of the King's Bench, and thereby avoid the payment of their debts. He himself knew a man of 8,000 l. a-year who lived in the rules in order to avoid his creditors. The expenses of law proceedings, those of the Insolvent Court, the discharge of prisoners, the expenses of debtors while in gaol, and those of collecting debts, amounted altogether to 600,000 l. a-year, and all this was abstracted from the funds of the creditors. In addition to this the sum of 116,000 l. a-year was spent in justifying bail. If the Report of the Commission of Law Inquiry was attended to, this sum of between 700,000 l. and 800,000 l. a-year would be thus swept away from such a useless direction, and added to the fund for the payment of creditors.
Viscount Melvillewished to take that opportunity of making an observation or two on the Court of Exchequer in Scotland. The reason why so small a number of cases

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were decided in that Court was, the system adopted of trying such causes in inferior Courts where it was usual to compound for penalties: when prosecutions were instituted, the defenders were induced to enter into compositions, and to pay a composition for the penalties, in order to save expenses. That was the cause of so little business being done in the Court of Exchequer. That power of compounding was one which ought not to be intrusted to an inferior Court, but ought to be under the control of the highest law officers of the Crown. That was a system which had grown up of late years.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, the same system of compromise in revenue causes prevailed very much in the Court of Exchequer here also. The Crown neither gave nor received costs; and it was often thought adviseable to compromise. The revenue causes occupied but a very small portion comparatively of the English Court of Exchequer, the Judges of which tried other causes, and went the circuits. The Scotch Court, on the contrary, was entirely confined to revenue causes. The returns called for by the noble Duke (the Duke of Buccleuch) extended only to the number of causes tried in the Scotch Court of Exchequer in each year during the last five years. If the noble Duke pleased, this might be extended to twenty years.
The Duke of Buccleuchsaid, he should be happy to attend to the suggestions of the noble and learned Lord.
A return was accordingly ordered of the number of causes tried in the Scotch Court of Exchequer in each year during the last twenty years, distinguishing between those compromised and those not compromised.