Lords Sitting of 12 October 1831

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a second time; Consolidated Fund Appropriation; Arms Continuation (Ireland.) Read a first time; Valuation of Lands and Military Accounts (Ireland.)
Petitions presented. By the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, from the Landowners, Merchants, Freeholders, and Freemen of Shruel; and by Lord CLONCURRY, from the Protestant Freemen of Galway residing at Barna, to extend the Galway Franchise to Catholics equally with Protestants:—By the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, from the Vestrymen of Marylebone against the Vestry Bill; and from the Directors of the Poor of St. James's, Westminster, praying to be heard by Counsel against it. By Lord CLONCURRY, from Inhabitants of Kildalkey to disband the Yeomanry of Ireland; and from the Tithe-payers of Lea, Queens County, for Inquiry into the Irish Tithe System. By Lord KING, from the Freeholders and Inhabitants of Petersfield, in favour of Reform.
A Committee was appointed to consider the Office of Clerk of Parliament.

IRISH EMBANKMENT BILL.
The Duke of Leinster The Duke of Leinster moved the committal of the Irish Embankment Bill.
Lord Carberrysaid, he was induced to appeal to his Majesty's Ministers to request them not to forward this Bill in the present Session, when their Lordships had not had time to consider its provisions. The clauses in the Bill were numerous, and the powers given by them interfered

585
much with the rights of private property. It ought at least to be referred to a Committee up-stairs for further consideration.
The Duke of Leinsterthought the provisions of the Bill were likely to be beneficial to Ireland, and therefore, with great deference to the noble Lord, he could by no means agree to a postponement of it.
The Marquis of Westmeathsaid, the want of employment to the poor of Ireland was the great evil to be combated, and he conceived the provisions of this Bill would go far to lessen the evil, by causing the draining and improvement of land. He wished, however, some noble Lord, who was more conversant with its details than himself, would inform him, whether it contained any clause which would deprive the landed proprietor of a fair and adequate equivalent from the Joint Stock Companies.
The Earl of Gosfordsaid, he did not see anything in the Act which was likely to prejudice the interests of landed proprietors of Ireland, but on the contrary he thought its operation would be generally beneficial to the country.
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, the object of the Bill appeared to him to be similar in some respects to the general drainage bill which passed the last session, but that did not give such extraordinary powers as this Bill contained. He was quite sure his noble friend (the Duke of Leinster) had the good of his country fully at heart, but he must beg to suggest to their Lordships, and particularly to the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, whether at present it was not too late in the Session for such a Bill to go through the House.
The Lord Chancellorconfessed that, from the many heavy avocations which had laid upon his shoulders, he had not had an opportunity of looking through the Bill. But he might still have that opportunity, as it would depend on what might happen to-night in another place whether the Session would be at an end so soon as was expected. There was a bill in the other House which he was anxious to have passed, as part of an arrangement which would enable him to pay more attention to the bills which came into that House, which certainly often required that they should be inspected and examined.
Lord Plunkettstated, that great care had been taken in the preparation of the Bill, which had been last year under the consideration of a Committee of their
586
Lordships up-stairs, and had been very much considered and altered in a Committee in the Commons, so as to remove all the objections to it in that House. The great object was, to provide employment for the Irish poor, by extending inland navigation, and in that respect it would be of immense advantage to Ireland. Objections had been made to the principle of the Bill, on account of its supposed interference with private property, but it contained no unusual provisions on that head, and noble Lords must also remember that previous to permission being granted to a Joint Stock Company, the Lord Lieutenant or his Chief Secretary must cause a notice to be inserted in the Dublin Gazette, and appoint an engineer to report as to the cost and utility of the proposed works, and on his report it depended whether the works were to be undertaken. They must, in addition, have the consent of two-thirds of the landed proprietors, whose interests were concerned before the works could be proceeded with. It was on the whole highly desirable that the measure should pass in the present Session.
Lord Cloncurrysaid, the present Bill was a necessary preliminary to a general drainage bill, because it was impossible to drain the bogs until the banks of the rivers were cleared. He was, therefore, of opinion, the measure would be found extremely advantageous to the country.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, the provisions of the present Bill had been most fully examined by a Committee of the other House, and in his opinion it opened a vast field for industry and the profitable employment of capital. It was indispensably necessary, to carry on public works in Ireland, that some such regulations should be made as the present Bill contained; he, therefore, hoped no postponement of it would take place.
The House then went into a Committee.
The Earl of Wicklowwished to ask the noble and learned Lord (Plunkett), if it would not be adviseable to extend the provisions of this Bill so as to make it in effect a general drainage bill.
Lord Plunkettsaid, such a provision could be made by merely adding the words "or elsewhere" after the words "borders of rivers."
Several clauses were then agreed to. On the clause that the "Company may enter lands and dig for materials after notice given before any Justice of the

587
Peace who was authorized to settle a compensation."
The Earl of Wicklowthought this was too great a power to be given to any persons considering the object to be attained. Some regulations ought to be established also to prevent Companies cutting through farms. It appeared the clause, as it at present stood, gave that power, and it might tend to inconvenience individuals very much.
Lord Plunkettsaid, he did not see the force of the noble Earl's objection, but if he considered that the evil he apprehended was not sufficiently guarded against, he could suggest a clause to meet his object when the report was brought up.
Clause agreed to.
The question was then put, that the following words stand part of the Bill, "Companies to fill up holes and pits not further useful, and fence them off, under a penalty of 5l."
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, the penalty was not sufficient, because, as a Company was to have the power of entering upon land for the purpose of digging, they might put the proprietor to a greater expense then the amount of penalty would cover.
Lord Plunkettsaid, the payment of any damage committed under such circumstances was provided for in another part of the Bill.
The Earl of Gosfordsaid, there was no necessity whatever to increase the penalty because, by another clause of the Bill it was provided that arbitrators were to be appointed to assess all damages committed under such circumstances.
Clause agreed to.
The question was then put upon the following words, "that any suit or action pending with regard to any lands not to hinder the Company from proceeding with the works."
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, this clause was very objectionable, inasmuch as a proprietor might commence a suit, but that would not stop the works, and by their continuing to go on the damage might be irreparable.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, the works were certainly to be proceeded with notwithstanding the commencement of a suit, but if it was decided in favour of the proprietor, an equivalent amount of damages would of course be awarded him; but as the clause in its present shape was guarded by other clauses of the Bill, unless
588
it was allowed to stand, the whole progress of any contemplated improvement would be stayed.
Clause agreed to.
On the clause "that the Company be allowed to possess themselves of floodgates, &c,"
The Earl of Mountcashelsaid, he thought this clause was liable to the objection of allowing Companies to encroach upon ornamental pieces of water, which ought, in his opinion, to be protected.
Lord Plunkettsaid, the introduction of the words "park, garden, or demesne," would meet the noble Lord's objection.
The words suggested by Lord Plunkett, were then added to the clause, which was agreed to.
Upon the question, "that witnesses have their reasonable costs paid," being put,
Lord Carberrysaid, it would be very desirable that some provision should be made, that an annual account of the expenses and returns of such Companies should be made, in a similar way in which such returns were made by Grand Juries.
Lord Cloncurrysaid, there was a general regulation by which all such bodies were compelled to make an annual report to the Commissioners in Dublin.
On the question that the clause "respecting penalties and forfeitures for offences committed under this Act," stand part of the Bill,
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, he had examined very carefully all the provisions of the Bill, and the result in his mind was, that landed proprietors were not sufficiently protected from the operations of these Joint Stock Companies. He thought, therefore, that whenever operations were commenced under the provisions of the Bill, the persons undertaking them ought to give security to double the amount of the estimate of the expense of completing such works, because it might happen that works of great extent would be undertaken, and before their completion the funds of the Company be exhausted. How, in such a case, was the proprietor of the land to be remunerated unless some such security was given? He therefore trusted the noble Marquis (the Marquis of Lansdown) would fully consider this point before the Bill passed through another stage.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, he would certainly consider the point mentioned by the noble Earl.
The remaining clauses were agreed to.
The Marquis of Lansdownthen moved an additional clause, which was agreed to. That the consent of the Lord High Admiral must be obtained where works are carried on in rivers, as far as the tide flows, or the person acting without obtaining such consent would be guilty of a misdemeanor, and be liable to all the expenses incurred.
House resumed. On the question, that the Report be received the next day,
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that in the mean time he would take care to make himself fully acquainted with the provisions of the Bill, which he had not yet had an opportunity of doing. This Bill, he understood, had undergone a severe scrutiny in the other House, but nevertheless, seeing the state in which other bills had come up from thence, it would be necessary to look into it.
Report to be received the next day.

REFORM—POPULAR EXCITEMENT.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, I beg, my Lords, to present to your Lordships a petition from the Magistrates and Inhabitants of the town of Peterhead, in Scotland, in favour of the Reform Bill. In doing so, I am anxious to avail myself of the opportunity which I was prevented, through a mere accident, of taking advantage of last night, to say a few words on this subject. I take this opportunity to declare, that I consider it my duty to state in the face of your Lordships, and of the country—a duty which devolves upon me, not merely as filling the situation which I do in your Lordships' House—not merely as being at the head of the magistracy of the kingdom—but a duty which devolves upon me as one of, I will venture to say, the most constant and sincere friends of the great measure of Parliamentary Reform—I repeat, my Lords, that I feel it my duty thus publicly to state, that the wit of man could not possibly devise any course of proceeding more calculated, beyond all others, to put in jeopardy the passing of that great measure, than proceedings of violence or outrage against the persons or properties of individuals. Whether such individuals differed from the public opinion or not, with regard to Reform, signified not one straw. A breach of the King's peace, whether committed against the person of any noble Peer, against the person of any Member of that or of the
590
other House of Parliament, or against any individual whatsoever—any such violation of the public peace, under the present excitement that exists with regard to this great measure, should be universally considered and set down as the worst species of enmity that could possibly be employed for the purpose of preventing the success of Parliamentary Reform. The people, who are jealously, anxiously, and devotedly desirous of the passing of that great measure, should not permit themselves, on account of any temporary disappointment in that respect, to be betrayed into proceedings which could alone be expected from the bitterest foes to the success of that momentous measure which they had so much at heart—they should not allow any temporary defeat which their hopes and wishes may have experienced, to drive them into a course of proceedings inconsistent with the public tranquillity, and destructive of the peace of society. I call upon them as their friend, and as the friend of Reform, not to give way to any such unfounded disappointment. I tell them that Reform is only delayed for a short period; I tell them that the Bill will pass—that the Bill must pass—that a Bill founded on exactly similar principles, and equally extensive and efficient as the Bill which has been just thrown out, shall, in a very short period, become part and parcel of the law of the land. Let not the people, I repeat, indulge in any degree of disappointment, for they may rely upon it, that through the exertions of their friends in the Ministry and their friends in Parliament, such a measure shall ere long be passed. But if the King's peace shall be broken, and if the friends of Reform will not also show themselves to be the friends of public order, the success of that measure which they all so much desire may not be attained. I now give the people this advice—I give it to them not so much as that of the head of the magistracy in this kingdom, but I give it to them as the friendly advice, the sincere and honest admonition of a zealous and ardent advocate and supporter of efficient and rational Reform—I tell them that riot, violence, or outrage, cannot promote but may defeat the success of such Reform—that it is not by such means, or by the adoption of such proceedings, that his Majesty's Ministers or their friends in both Houses of Parliament would ever desire to see the triumph of that cause secured—a

591
triumph which, if good order and tranquillity be maintained, must follow almost immediately, and that the only way by which the people can possibly frustrate that measure consists in breaking the King's peace.
Lord Wharncliffe Lord Wharncliffe rose to express the great satisfaction he derived from hearing the sentiments of the noble Lord on the Woolsack. Assuredly, if any thing could tend to impede the advancement of Reform, it would be attacks on person or property. He hoped that the people of England would understand this. For his own part, he had opposed the Reform Bill, and how he should act with respect to any other measure must depend upon the circumstances that might come before that House. But while he made this declaration, he would again state emphatically, as he had stated last Session, that he was convinced the time had arrived when the question of a Reform in the Commons' House of Parliament must be taken into serious consideration, with a view to amend and improve the whole system of Representation. As to the precise measure of Reform, there might be a difference of opinion: but the measure which seemed best calculated to insure the safety and prosperity of the country should have his hearty concurrence.