Lords Sitting of 24 March 1831

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. In favour of Reform, by the Earl of KINNOUL, from the Provost and Magistrates of the Royal Burgh of Perth; also praying the Town of

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Perth might have the privilege of returning for itself a Member to Parliament; that Town being a very flourishing place, and containing 23,000 inhabitants:— By the Earl of ESSEX, from the County of Essex, from Kettering, and Havering-atte-Bower:—By Lord DURHAM, from the Inhabitants of Chester-le-street, Durham:—By Lord KING, from the non-resident Freemen of Dover, from Rochester, and four other places:—By Lord SUFFIELD, from Wells:—By the Earl of GLESOAIL, from Ballymoney. For a Revision of the Tithe System, by Lord CALTHORP, from South Molton:—By Lord SUFFIELD, from East and West Flegg. For the Abolition of Slavery, by the Bishop of BATH and WELLS, from South Moreton and Hagebourn:—By Lord CALTHORP, from Southwark, and several Congregations of Protestant Dissenters. By Lord DURHAM, from the Workmen of Glasgow, fox a Repeal of the Duty on Newspapers.

BEER BILL.
The Bishop of Bath and Wellspresented a Petition from the Clergy of Bath, complaining of the alarming increase of immorality, pauperism, and vice, among the lower orders, arising from the great number of Beer-shops which had been opened under the Act of Parliament passed in last session. The right rev. Prelate concurred with the Petitioners in thinking that that Act of Parliament had had the most pernicious effect, and he believed that there never had been a Bill on the Statute-book more disgraceful to a Christian Country.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that the right rev. Prelate was not the only person from whom he had heard complaints respecting the Beer Bill. He had, in truth, heard similar complaints made by various persons in the west and north of England; but he believed that in the west of England the effect, of it had been worse than in the north. He therefore thought it his duty to bear testimony to the accuracy of the right rev. Prelate's statement of the bad effects of that measure. The original plan of the Bill was, he believed, very different from that which had been adopted. He did not know by what accident the change had been effected; but he supposed it had taken place in some stages of the Bill in the House, of Commons. He had brought a Bill into the House of Commons, in 1822 and 1823; but the object of that Bill was expressly confined to making the sale of Beer open, provided it was not consumed on the premises where it was sold; and his purpose was, to enable the poor man to send his wife or daughter to buy a pot of beer at places where they were not likely to meet with improper company. From all the accounts he had received, it would appear that many of the late disturbances in the country had originated in Beer-shops. He thought, there-
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fore, it would be expedient to take the subject into consideration, to see whether the evils complained of were merely temporary or confined to a small district; and if they were not found to be local in extent, and temporary in nature, he should wish to see the Bill repealed.
The Bishop of Bath and Wellswas glad to hear the candid statement of the noble and learned Lord. He had described the Bill as it was: he did not know what it was intended to be.

REFORM PETITION-COUNTY OF DOWN.
Earl Greypresented a Petition from the Freeholders of the county of Down, assembled at a public meeting, convened by the High Sheriff, in favour of Parliamentary Reform. The petition touched upon a variety of topics, and prayed, that in order to secure the purity of the House of Commons, the Members should be required to make oath that they had not procured their return by any species of corruption.
The Marquis of Londonderrywas unwilling to break through the sort of understanding which their Lordships had come to, not to discuss the question of Reform on the presentation of petitions; but knowing the mode in which the petition just presented had been got up, he should ill discharge his duty, he conceived, if he did not put their Lordships in possession of the circumstances connected with the petition which had come to his knowledge. There was, in the county of Down, an independent club, or rather a radical club, and the members of it convened a meeting for the purpose of agreeing to a petition to the legislature on the subject of Parliamentary Reform. The meeting was not attended by any person of consideration or property; the petition was signed by the lowest freeholders in the county; and there was not an individual of respectability whose name stood affixed to that petition. He begged leave further to state, that after the petition was thus got up, it was determined to send it to the Representatives of the county, in order to be presented to Parliament, if their sentiments accorded with the opinions contained in the petition; but as it prayed for Annual Parliaments and Vote by Ballot, the Representatives of the county, knowing that, the entire sense of the county was averse to these propositions, refused to support the prayer. A discussion then took place in the Court-house upon the

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petitions, and these gentlemen, not being able to carry their object there, adjourned to a private room in the town of Down-patrick, and having got up the petition sent it about the county to get signatures; and their Lordships might form an idea of their success, when he told them that only the names of 1,300 freeholders were attached to the petition, coming from a county which contained 25,000 freeholders. It might perhaps be asked why. if the present petition did not express the sense of the county, had not a counter-petition been got up? He replied,—for the same reason which had operated upon the people in different parts of England against sending petitions. It was not that they had not strong feelings on the subject; but they had shown a degree of tranquillity, and a feeling of apathy, because they never conceived it possible, that such a measure of Reform as the one proposed, would be entertained. He happened to hear the noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government announce his intention of proposing a measure of Reform, which the noble Earl had promised should be efficient and moderate. It certainly was a very efficient one, but where the moderation was to be found he was at a loss to discover. He considered it to be only a resting place to Universal Suffrage and the Vote by Ballot. He was glad that the noble Earl had stated himself to be opposed to Universal Suffrage, Vote by Ballot, and Annual Parliaments; because it would be his greatest consolation, if the proposed Bill passed into a law, to have the assistance of the noble Earl in opposing those propositions. He was afraid that, if the Bill passed, the hitherto unrivalled Constitution of England would be destroyed, and the country become a prey to all those calamities which were now desolating the other parts of Europe. He was sorry to say, that undue influence had been employed in the course of the debate on the proposed measure, and, notwithstanding what had fallen from the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, he considered the introduction of the sacred name of the Sovereign as highly unconstitutional and mischievous. It had had the effect of making a loyal people believe, that in getting up petitions for Reform they were advocating the royal wishes. He said in his place, that the people of England were deceived by such an improper proceeding, Threats had also been held out by
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Cabinet Ministers of a dissolution of Parliament, such threats were still held over the heads of hon. Members; but he could not believe, that the noble Earl sanctioned such declarations on the part of some of his colleagues. It had also been stated, that if the Bill did not pass, Ministers could no longer carry on the government of the country. Such declarations were exceedingly unfair, for the measure ought to be allowed to stand on its own merits alone; and he hoped the noble Earl would declare that those unfair helps which had been given to the Bill did not meet with his approbation. He was glad the noble Lord had expressed himself unfavourable to the Ballot, because he knew that in another place some Members of the Government had declared their approbation of the Vote by Ballot. The Bill had been termed a revolutionary measure. He would not give it that epithet, for he could not believe that the noble Earl, surrounded as he was by some of the highest aristocracy in the land, and disposed to uphold his order, could knowingly, bring forward any proposition of a revolutionary nature. But his (Lord Londonderry's) belief was, that the measure would effect the ruin of the aristocracy. Notwithstanding it might be said that the measure, while it took away close boroughs on the one hand, upheld the aristocracy on the other, yet he defied the noble Earl to make good that position when the Bill came to be discussed by their Lordships. The whole system of Representation would be so completely changed, that the communication of the aristocracy, with the Members of the other House, would be entirely destroyed. The whole machinery of our unrivalled Constitution would be swept away, and he did not believe that any Minister, after the passing of the Bill, could form a permanent Administration. How, for instance, if the proposed Bill had been in operation, could the Secretary for Ireland, after being rejected by one place, have been brought into the House of Commons to carry on the business of the country? If the aristocracy did not rally together, they would find that in a short time that House would be shook to its very foundation. He was sorry to have observed the power of the Crown diminishing of late; but he feared, if the proposed Bill passed, it would still further diminish. When he saw, that not only an extreme mea sure of Reform, but also extreme measures

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of retrenchment were proposed,—when he saw the system of government which was now acted on, and which went to the root of every thing hitherto held sacred, he maintained that the danger to the country was imminent, and, as long as he was able, he would stand up and protest against a measure, which tended to place England in the same unhappy state of revolution and anarchy as prevailed at the present moment on the Continent. He said this advisedly; for he had long considered the subject, and he was sorry that he must offer the noble Earl his opposition on this question.
Earl Greyfelt himself called upon to make a few observations to their Lordships, in reference to the speech which had just been delivered by the noble Marquis. He would first of all advert to what had fallen from the noble Marquis, with repect to the petition which he had presented from the county Down. The noble Marquis had stated, that that petition did not represent the sense of the county. He (Earl Grey) could not, of course, pretend to speak with certainty as to the feelings which prevailed in that county, and all he could say was, that the petition had been sent to him, as one emanating from a county meeting, called by the regular authorities, and held under the presidency of the High Sheriff. It had also been stated to him that, at the meeting so convened and so held, no opposition was made to the adoption of the petition; and that the petition had been signed by 1,300 persons, every one of whom was either registered, or entitled to be registered, as a freeholder of 10 l. a year. But the noble Marquis had stated that there was not annexed, to the Petition the signature of any one person of respectability, and that it was signed by—he thought the noble Marquis's expression was—the lowest rabble. He could not be expected to know many of the gentlemen of the county of Down, but the first signature he saw upon the petition was that of Nicholas White, the High Sheriff,—not affixed in his official capacity, but placed at the head of the roll, as the signature of an individual who subscribed to the opinions expressed in the petition. The next name on the petition was that of a gentleman, whom he asked the noble Marquis whether he would designate as an individual belonging to the lowest classes, as a man of no respectability in Downshire, or as a person not respected by the noble
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Marquis himself? It was the name of Alexander Macdonnell.
The Marquis of Londonderryhere interrupted the noble Earl. He said there was a physician of that name living in Belfast, and he might be a freeholder of the county of Down for all that he (the Marquis of Londonderry) knew to the contrary. He thought that there was no occasion for the noble Earl to go through all the signatures attached to the Petition, because the noble Marquis (Lansdown) could tell the noble Earl how many names of respectability were attached to it. He would maintain what he had said, that there was not a man resident in the county, of any consequence, whose name could be found in the petition.
Earl Greyhad no intention to go through the whole list of signatures attached to the petition; but he would refer to one more in contradiction to the general assertion of the noble Marquis, that no person of respectability had signed the petition; and that was the signature of Mr. Forde, a gentleman who had once represented the county of Down, and who had often contested the election for the county in opposition to the person supported by the interest of the noble Marquis's family. He was a gentleman of large property and great respectability, and certainly was not one of the lowest rabble. That name alone, then, contradicted the assertion of the noble Marquis, that no person of respectability had signed the petition. He knew it was very often the custom, when petitions were presented, containing prayers not palatable to individuals in that House, to attempt to throw discredit on them, by saying that they did not speak the sense of the country; and the noble Marquis, following that laudable course, had stood up and stated that petitions had been got up in different parts of the country in favour of Reform, he knew not by what arts and stratagems, while on the other hand a degree of apathy prevailed on the part of those individuals who were opposed to the proposed measure of Reform. That was an assertion for which he believed no satisfactory reason could be stated. He, on the contrary, believed, that there never existed in the country so general and so nearly unanimous a feeling in favour of any measure as that which had been expressed in favour of the plan of Reform which had been recommended to Parliament by his Majesty's

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Ministers. But this, it seemed, was a wholly fallacious appearance, and produced by the apathy of those who objected to the measure of Reform. If such apathy existed in individuals, this conclusion at least was to be drawn therefrom,—that there was not that general feeling of danger in the country which the noble Marquis had described as existing, and which he had said called upon their Lordships strenuously to oppose the proposed Bill, in vindication of their own privileges, and in support of the authority of the Crown, and the principles of the constitution, which, according to the noble Marquis's statement, the proposed measure tended to subvert. If such apathy existed in the country as the noble Marquis had described, it was plain, that it was not from the feeling of the people that the proposed measure deserved the character given to it by the noble Marquis. As to the principle on which the measure proceeded, and the particular way in which it would operate, he was not disposed on the present occasion to argue before their Lordships. The argument of the noble Marquis, as well as that of other persons, consisted, as he said last night, merely of a strong assertion of individual opinion. This he would, however, state, that the principle of the measure was the principle of Reform, and was founded on the necessity, in the present state and feelings of the country, of some reformation of the representation of the people in Parliament being made. He should like to know whether or not that was fact? Was that the general sentiment of the country, or was it not? Could it be denied that there never was any thing so nearly approaching to unanimity, as the feeling, that the principle of Reform was completely established, so completely indeed, that there could hardly be found a single individual to dissent from it? Placing out of consideration the unanimous declarations of opinion on the subject of Reform at all the public meetings in this country, he would refer, in support of his assertion, to the division in the House of Commons. He should be told, no doubt, of the limited majority of one; but only let the House consider how the matter stood with respect to the principle of Reform. How, he asked, was that large minority obtained, except by declarations made on the part of every one who spoke on the principle of the measure, that if the second reading of the Bill was rejected, another measure
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of Reform, though not the same, should be offered ["No, no"]. He said, "Yes, yes." He had, therefore, in favour of the principle of Reform, besides the general declarations of the sentiments of the people of England, the unanimous vote of the House of Commons, given in one of the fullest houses ever assembled; for every one, without a single exception, admitted that some Reform was necessary; though some persons objected to the proposed measure as being too extensive and dangerous. If he understood the noble Marquis rightly, he also advocated the principle of Reform; he was for gradual measures —a bit-by-bit Reform; which had this disadvantage over all others, that while it discredited our institutions equally with a large measure of Reform, it satisfied nobody, and sowed in the hearts of the people the seeds of discontent, and would at last lead to the bringing forward, in its worst state, those very measures which the noble Marquis so much dreaded. The noble Marquis had stated, that the proposed Bill was only a step to Universal Suffrage, and that it was some comfort and consolation to him, that he (Earl Grey) had declared his opinion without reserve against that and other extensive and obnoxious theories of Reform. That was a consolation which the noble Lord might have had long ago. Never, at any period of his life, had he not stated his decided opinion against Annual Parliaments and Universal Suffrage, and latterly—because it was only latterly that the subject had been brought under the public notice—against the Vote by Ballot. But the noble Marquis had also said, that the proposed measure was inconsistent with the statement he (Earl Grey) had made of his intention to propose a moderate Reform. He must, in justice to himself, recall their Lordships' attention to what fell from him on the first day of the present Session, in the course of the discussion on the motion to address his Majesty in answer to his gracious Speech. At that time, so strongly was he impressed with the necessity of granting Reform, from the state of things and feeling of the country,—having always been convinced of the justice and policy of the measure, that he stated to their Lordships his opinion, that one of the best steps that could be taken to conciliate the sentiments of the country, and restore the confidence of the people in the Legislature, which was so necessary to the security of the Govern-

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ment, was to address themselves immediately to the question of Reform. This he had stated at a moment when it was most distant from his expectation, and he might also add from his wish, that he should be placed in the situation in which he had then the honour to stand. When the situation which he then filled was offered to him—under circumstances which, he conceived, made it his duty not to decline the proposal—by his gracious Sovereign, in a manner which would command his respect, gratitude, and affection, as long as he lived, he strongly urged to his Sovereign—and his services were accepted on that condition—that he could not faithfully and usefully serve his Majesty if he were not permitted to propose a measure to Parliament of the description which had been submitted to the other House. This brought him to what was one of the great complaints of the noble Marquis—namely, that undue influence had been employed with respect to the Bill before the House of Commons;—that use had been made of the sacred name, which he agreed with the noble Marquis in saying, ought never to be introduced for the purpose of influencing the votes of Members of that or the other House of Parliament. The noble Marquis had said, that the name of a gracious personage had been abused, for the purpose of giving undue weight, by the assumption of his authority, to the statement made in favour of the measure. He thought the noble Marquis would acquit him of having done any thing of the sort: nor was he aware that any body whatever had stated any thing more than that which was to be collected from the manner in which the proposition had been made; because, when any measure was introduced, as a measure proposed by his Majesty's Ministers, without using his name in any way that was improper or unconstitutional, it must be well known that the measure could not be so introduced without the sanction and authority of that master whom they served. He was not aware that any thing more than that had been done to influence the decision of Parliament on the proposed measure of Reform. The noble Marquis thought it unworthy in him to lend himself to any proceeding calculated to influence the vote of any person. He had done nothing of the sort; but as a Minister of the Crown he had discharged his duty faithfully to the Sovereign who had accepted his services on the condition he had
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stated, by proposing in conjunction, with his colleagues a measure of Reform, though the noble Marquis thought that there must be a difference of opinion among them with regard to the Vote by Ballot. That measure of Reform, which had occupied so much of the attention of the public, and which was looked upon by the noble Marquis with so much alarm, did not proceed upon the principle of the Ballot, nor did it contemplate the adoption of the principle of the Ballot. It had, however, he could inform the noble Marquis, met with the unanimous concurrence of all his Majesty's Ministers. Under these circumstances, he left their Lordships to judge between the noble Marquis and himself, whether there was any foundation for the charge that undue use had been made by the Ministers of the Crown of that sacred authority under which they acted, to influence the votes of Members of either House of Parliament. The noble Marquis had also complained that threats had been held out of a dissolution of Parliament in the event of the rejection of the measure, and had called on him for some explicit declaration on that point. He would make no such explicit declaration, All he would state was this,—that he considered himself to be committed to the proposed measure, without the possibility of compromise or retreat; by that measure he would stand or fall; and he was determined not to consent to any thing which would detract from its efficiency. He was not presumptuous enough to say, that the measure was so complete and unexceptionable that there might not be some matters requiring correction; but to nothing in any degree detracting from its efficiency would he ever consent. He said again, by that measure he would stand or fall; and without wishing to throw out any threat, yet he declared, that to carry a measure which he believed was calculated to do the greatest good it was possible for any measure to do, by silencing the voice of complaint, by removing the cause of discontent, by uniting in confidence and affection to the Government of the country the people of, the country,—to carry a measure of this description to which he stood committed, there was no proceeding, dictated by public duty, from which he would shrink. Now, he hoped he had expressed himself explicitly enough, and satisfactorily, at least, to the noble Marquis. Any thing more he did not know that it was neces-

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sary for him to say. To the assertion that the measure was revolutionary, he would answer by the contrary assertion, that it was not revolutionary, but constitutional. To the assertion that the measure was calculated to subvert the privileges of that order (using a word which, as the noble Marquis knew, it had been imputed to him almost as a crime for having uttered) to which he belonged, he replied, that it was his opinion that the measure would not cause their subversion, but prove their best support. He was a member of the aristocracy by situation; still more so, some perhaps might think, by disposition and habit. He did not deny that. At the same time he did not uphold the aristocracy as a useful order(using that obnoxious term again) on any other ground than this, that it formed one of the orders of the Constitution necessary to its general support, connected with all, and united with all, for purposes of common advantage. If the aristocracy ceased to bear that character, he was no longer one of that order. It was to support the aristocracy in that useful situation by which it formed the connecting medium between the Crown and the people, that he had proposed the measure of Reform. He should be always ready to support the privileges and rights of that body; and when he was told that the proposed measure would subvert the aristocracy, his answer was, that it would support the aristocracy, by taking from the members of it that power which made them odious to the people, and by placing them in that situation where the influence they were desirous to possess must depend on their cultivating a good understanding with the people; becoming known for their good offices; supporting the principles of the Constitution, and the rights of the people, and by the performance of all those duties for which, and for which alone, the public trust, and confidence, and all the privileges they enjoyed, were given them. He had nothing more to say on the present occasion; but thus much he could not help stating. It was impossible for him to remain silent after the sort of attack which had been made upon him; and having vindicated himself, he should sit down, leaving the petition from the county of Down to be received by their Lordships as the petition adopted at the county meeting regularly convened. He should say no more at present; but when the day came for entering at large into argument in sup-
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port of the measure for which he and his colleagues stood personally responsible, he should be prepared to maintain, that it was calculated to preserve the institutions of the country.
The Marquis of Downshiresaid, that a considerable number of the signatures to the petition were those of gentlemen with whom he had long had the honour of being acquainted, and he knew them to possess considerable property in the county. With respect to the measure which had been introduced into the other House of Parliament, he approved of its principle and would be happy to give it his support if some of the details should be modified.
The Marquis of Londonderryrepeated that the petitioners, taken as a whole, were not persons of wealth and influence in the county. He added that Colonel Forde had at first opposed the petition, although he had signed it afterwards on its being altered, and that Doctor Macdonnell had no great property in the county. He could have no pretensions to contend in declamation with the noble Earl, but he must support his own opinion according to the best of his ability—however unequal he might be to contend with such fearful odds as the noble Earl.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, that it was not his intention to prolong the discussion, having often had occasion to regret that discussions of this nature should take place with respect to important questions which were likely to come under the consideration of the House. Upon occasions of this nature their Lordships had not an opportunity of entering into the different topics which ought to be fairly argued and discussed, in order that the House and the public might understand what were the real opinions of the Members of their Lordships House. He confessed, therefore, that it was with great unwillingness that he had determined to trouble their Lordships with a few words that evening, in order to advert to what had fallen from the noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government. It was far from his wish to impute to the noble Earl or his colleagues any desire to introduce revolutionary measures into Parliament; but he must say this, that having looked at the measure which had been brought into the other House of Parliament under their auspices, he could not but consider that it would alter every interest existing in the country,—that in consequence of its oper-

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ation no interest would remain on the footing on which it now stood, and that this alteration must lead to a total change of men—he meant of men intrusted with the public confidence in Parliament. He was of opinion that this alteration must have a most serious effect on the public interests,—an effect which he confessed he could not look at without the most serious apprehension. He did not charge the noble Earl and his colleagues with a desire of overturning the institutions of the country, but he could not look at the alterations proposed by the Bill without seeing that those alterations must be followed by a total change of men, and likewise by a total change of the whole system of Government. Why, he asked,—for what reason was all this to be done? He would not now enter into the question of what was the opinion of the other House of Parliament, but he would say again, as he had said before, in the presence of their Lordships, that he saw no reason whatever for altering the constitution of Parliament. It was his opinion that Parliament had well served the country, and that it well deserved the thanks of the country for a variety of measures which it had passed, particularly of late years. He saw no reason for the measure now proposed except the reason stated by the noble Earl,—namely, his desire to gratify certain individuals in the country. It was possible that those individuals might be a very large body; it was possible, even, that they might be a majority of the population. He had heard no reason excepting this, why the measure should be introduced or adopted. Whilst he thus declared his sentiments, he begged their Lordships to believe that he felt no interest in the question, excepting that which he shared with every individual in the country. He possessed no influence or interest of the description which would be destroyed by the measure now proposed. He was an individual who had served his Majesty for now nearly half a century— he had been in his Majesty's service forty-nine years. He had served his Majesty in situations of trust and confidence. He had been in command of his armies;—he had been employed in embassies and councils for thirty eventful years of that period; and the experience which he had acquired in the various situations which he had filled imposed on him the duty of saying to their Lordships, that he could not look at the measure which had been introduced
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into the other House without the most serious apprehensions, that from the period of the adoption of that measure would date the downfall of the Constitution.
The Marquis of Clanricardesaid, that although he could not agree with the assertion of the noble Duke (Wellington), that the Ministerial plan of Reform had been introduced for the purpose of pleasing individuals, because he thought the measure was eminently calculated to promote the general good, rather than individual interests; yet he quite concurred with the noble Duke in thinking that the proposed Reform would please the majority of the nation; and that was one reason wherefore it pleased him, and for which it should have all his support. But it was not a large majority only that approved of it, almost the whole of the community he believed was in its favour, and this was a strong reason for concluding that it was well calculated to promote the best interests of all classes. He was not surprised, however, at the noble Duke objecting to that Motion which would turn out that class of men who had supported the noble Duke's Government. Their popularity and the opinion which the country entertained of their merits were shewn by the places they represented. They had generally fled from or been rejected at populous places and taken refuge in close boroughs. He denied that the measure would destroy the proper influence of the aristocracy and repeated that it should have his warmest support.
Lord Farnhamsaid, that he could not admit the correctness of the position laid down by the noble Marquis,—namely, that the opinion of Parliament should follow the opinion of the majority of the population. Parliament should represent the opinions of persons of wealth and property. The education and property of Ireland were opposed to the measure which had been brought forward by Ministers.
Petition to lie on the Table.
Earl Greypresented a Petition in favour of the Reform Bill from the county of Nottingham.
The Duke of Newcastlesaid, the petition could not be considered as that of the county; not above 200 persons being present when it was voted.
Earl Greysaid, that the petition had been agreed to at a meeting regularly convened, and was signed by many of the gentry of the county.
The Duke of Newcastleadmitted, to his sorrow, he said, that many of the gentry approved of the Bill; but was convinced that the majority of the yeomanry was opposed to it.
Earl Greysaid, that the correctness of the noble Duke's opinion on that point might be put to the test if a general election should take place.
Petition laid on the Table.