Lords Sitting of 22 March 1831

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Bishop of BATH and WELLS, from Rochdale, for limiting the hours of Labour in Cotton Factories; from Derby, against suffering Idolatrous practices in the East Indies. By the Duke of GLOUCESTER, from the Society of Friends in England, against Negro Slavery. By the Earl of ABERDEEN, from Aberdeen, against any alteration in the Timber Duties, and against the Tax on Steam-Boats. By the Marquis of DOWNSHIRE, from Achrony, for an Alteration in the Grants for Education (Ireland). For Reform, by the Earl of RADNOR, from Ross (Hereford), St. Andrew's, in Wells, Somersetshire, and various other places:—By the Marquis of CLANRICARDE, from places in Ireland:—By the Duke of NORFOLK, from Paddington, Retford, and Andover:—By Earl CAWDOR, from Haverfordwest:—By the Marquis of CLEVELAND, from Shrewsbury:—By the Marquis of DOWNSHIRE, from Down:—By the LORD CHANCELLOR, four lists, one containing thirty-two, another twelve, another twenty-seven, and another thirty petitions, from various parts of the kingdom:—By Earl GREY, from the County of Northumberland, signed at a Meeting held at Morpeth, on the 16th of March, in favour of Reform, and approving of the plan before the House of Commons; and, in the absence of the Duke of Bedford, from the Inhabitants, and from the Mayor and Corporation of Bedford; with forty-three others from Montrose, North Shields, the Tailors of Edinburgh, and from Gates-head, Killarney, Cork, St. Giles's, (Camberwell), the Tower Hamlets, St. Bride's (Fleet-street), Kingston-on-Thames, &c.:—By Lord DURHAM, signed by 25,000 of the Operatives of Glasgow; and from the Inhabitants of St. James, Westminster.

PUBLIC OPINION ON PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
Lord Rollepresented a Petition from Exeter against the Bill for Parliamentary Reform, and said, that some of the petitions which had been sent to that House in favour of the Bill, particularly one from Exeter were signed by boys of fourteen years of age.
The Duke of Richmondwished to ask the noble Lord who informed the House that some of the petitions in favour of the Bill were signed by boys, if he had any doubt that the voice of the whole country was in favour of Reform.
Lord Rollecould not say whether that were the case or not, but he had the
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strongest possible objections to the Ministerial measure.
The Marquis of Salisburyadmitted, that the general sentiments were in favour of Reform, but he denied that the voice of the whole country demanded it.
The Marquis of Clanricardesaid, he was convinced the voice of the country was of but one accord as to the necessity of some Reform, though many persons wished to qualify the extent to which the measure should be carried. Notwithstanding all that had been said on the subject at public meetings and elsewhere, he had heard of one person only who had the courage to declare that in his opinion no Reform of any kind was necessary. He could only declare, that he believed the desire for the measure was general, and the feeling was participated in most fully by the people of Ireland.

BANKRUPTCY COURT BILL.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that when asked last night on what day the second reading of this Bill should be taken, he stated that he was in daily expectation of receiving an answer from the Lord Chief Baron to a letter he had written to him on the subject; but as he had not received an answer today, and as he did not wish to keep the House in suspense, he thought the better course was to fix Monday, 18th, at once, which would be the first Monday after the recess, as the House would meet on the 13th of April, the Judges being summoned for that day. He wished to avail himself of the opportunity to acquaint the House that besides the two Bills which he had presented on the subject of Chancery Reform, and which had gone through some of their stages, there was another which had not yet attracted the notice of the House, because he waited until a noble and learned friend, who intimated an objection to it on the evening when he opened the measure generally, and which he must still delay, as he would not wish to put it forward even a single stage in that noble Lord's absence. There was also a fourth Bill which he had not explained, but which he would now state was intended for the regulation and improvement of the Registrar's and Six Clerks' office. He had in the first instance stated, in a concise manner, what extent of saving-he hoped to accomplish; but it appeared from what had been said by his noble and learned friend (Lord Wynford), that his

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noble friend did not agree in his calculations, which had induced him to make still more strict inquiries, and he was happy now to say, that the actual saving would be even more than he had at first expected. He and his noble friend had both taken the average amount of the Commissioners of Bankrupts' emoluments, and he found that their fees or salaries, instead of being 300 l a year, was, on an average, above 400 l. and many of them made no less than 700 l. or 800 l. a year. The whole annual expense of the Commissioners of Bankrupts, and of the present system, was 63,197 l. In former times, it reached as high as 100,000 l. a year, but the present might be taken as the reduced expense of the system, the business itself having fallen off, and the Insolvent Debtors' Court having appropriated a part of it to itself. The expense of the new system, at the highest computation, would be 34,200 l. a year, but if he took from it 7,000 l. a year for the salary of the Lord Chancellor, it would be only 27,000 l. He would, however, include the 7,000 l. for the Chancellor's salary, and let the whole charge stand at 34,000 l. which deducted from the 63,000 l. left the total saving in the business of bankruptcy alone at 29,000 l.; and if the Chancellor's salary were deducted, and placed by Parliament on any other fund, the actual saving to the country on this single branch of its judicature would be 36,000 l. a year. The fees to the Master and Clerks in Chancery, under the present system, amounted to 51,000 l. Under the new plan the expenses would be 38,000 l., leaving a saving of 13,000 l. The expenses of the Registrar's department was 34,000 l., it would be 16,000 l.: leaving a saving of 18,000 l. So that, if he saved in bankruptcy 36,000 l. in the Masters' and Clerks' office 13,000 l., and the Registrar's office 18,000 l., the whole saving made by his three Bills in Chancery would amount to 67,000 l. And if he deducted the Lord Chancellor's salary 7,000 l., the saving would be at least 60,000 l. Now a saving of 60,000 l. a year would be considered by some persons as a trifling reduction of expense, in a country which spent as many millions; but stilt it should not be under-valued, the more particularly when accompanied by what he hoped it would be—by a better mode of doing the business, and by the striking off what he had already described, and, what no one but a professional man could be-
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lieve existed, by the striking off the practice of copy-money and gratuities, by which alone the expense of a Chancery suit would on the average be diminished 200 l., and by which, in large suits, bills for 800 l. would be reduced to 600 l.
Lord Wynfordsaid, no one would rejoice more than he was disposed to do, if his noble and learned friend succeeded in actually saving 60,000 l. a-year to the country: but still he feared that his calculation was founded on erroneous views, and he would be happy to come to a clear understanding about them. In the first place, his noble friend took the average of the Commissioners of Bankrupts' fees at 400 l. a-year; but surely he must have gone to years of great distress, like 1825, or 1826, to establish such a sum.
The Lord Chancellorwas unwilling to interrupt, but it would save trouble to state, that the average of the three last years had been taken.
Lord Wynfordsaid, that though he was most willing to place confidence in the assertion of his noble friend; still, as he felt that he must have gone on wrong data, he would beg of him to put some paper on the Table by which his statement could be borne out. He hoped that his noble friend would give their Lordships an opportunity of knowing from whence his facts came, for they must be, in truth, very different from any that he had been able to meet with in the course of his inquiry. The noble Lord took the whole expense of the Bankrupt Commissioners at present to be 60,000 l., but in that he included a number of items which were incidental to each case of bankruptcy independent of the Commissioners. He was sure there must be some great fallacy in his noble friend's calculations, and he was convinced, though he had never had any professional experience in that branch of practice, and though he was not thoroughly acquainted with all the facts, that the true charge did not amount to 21,000 l. a year, and he would undertake to prove the fact at their Lordships' bar; and, further he would pledge himself to show that the expense of the new ten Judges, two Registrars, seven Chief Clerks, and thirty Assignees, proposed to be created by his noble friend, could never be supported for 25,000 l.—no, nor even for 50,000 l. a-yean An allusion had been made, on this as well as on a former occasion, by the noble Lord, to the petition from the City of Lon-

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don on this subject, and he was not surprised that the merchants and traders of the city of London should come forward to support a measure which would relieve them of expense, and throw it on the rest of the kingdom; and he confessed he looked on them something in the light of interested persons. He hoped that some papers would be laid on the Table to prove the justness of the noble Lord's calculations, and he trusted that the scheme of economy would not turn out to be an increase of expense; and as he felt that the country was to be saddled with an expense which belonged to the city of London, so he also thought that the measure ought to have been introduced not in this, but in the other House of Parliament.
The Lord Chancellorreturned with much satisfaction the compliment which his noble friend paid him, and he begged to assure him, that he believed his assertion, when he. stated that he was very little acquainted with the subject, as every word that had fallen from him bore testimony to that truth, and furnished an argument against himself.
Lord Wynfordbegged not to be misunderstood. He did not say, that he was unacquainted with the subject, for he had made such inquiries as convinced him he was right in the view he took, though he could not pretend to a knowledge derived from professional experience.
The Lord Chancellor.—Than, for the first time in his life, he could doubt his noble friend's assertion; and he would tell him, that, while he thought he had examined the details, he was altogether in error—certainly not wilfully—but in error he was. The noble Lord should recollect that he himself was the first person to argue the subject on the ground of economy; but, for his part, he maintained that, if the expense was to continue the same, and the business was placed on a better footing, a true economy would be practised, and the interests of the country advanced. He should have preferred debating the question in any other place; but as his noble friend had thrown down the gauntlet, and had endeavoured to put the Bill at a discount by showing that it was expensive, he would do the best he could to convince him—he was sure he could convince their Lordships—that his noble friend was wrong. The inquiries his noble friend had made must have been of the most incorrect nature if the inform-
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ation they furnished him calculated the salaries of the Commissioners at 21,000 l. But his noble friend, on the contrary, ascribed the errors to him, and thought that he had taken erroneous data; but what would his noble friend say if he learned that all his information came from the Commissioners themselves? What would he think of him if he found that he had gone to the fountain head, and sought the fact from the Commissioners of Bankrupts? What would his noble friend say, when he heard that he had taken—suppose twenty of the first answers that came in to the circulars he wrote to those gentlemen, and that the average salary of the twenty, by their own showing, was 410 l. a year. Would he not admit that that was a tolerable good standard for the other fifty Commissioners—much better than if he had taken any particular list which might be the highest or the lowest? Would not his noble friend admit that these returns were documents by which he could not be misled. His noble friend, however, in his anxiety to make out a case, contended that the average of 400 l. a year must have been taken from 1825 or 1826; and he said that those years were years of great distress, and productive of much bankruptcy business. Did no one know that these were years of great distress but the noble Lord? And what became of his noble and learned friend's argument, when he was told, that the three years of 1828, 1829, and 1830, were taken to form the average? These years were, perhaps, more than usually unprofitable in Equity; and he was certain that, in taking the average of them, he was not overstating the mark; but, perhaps, his noble friend could only see one side of the question; and as there were none so blind as those who would not see, he feared that while he had presented the truth to their Lordships, his noble friend had shut one eye; and if he did, he could only tell his noble friend that it was not he who deceived him, but that he deceived himself. His noble friend asked for a comparative statement of the expense of the old and the proposed system. He (the Lord Chancellor) had got it, chapter and verse, and their Lordships might clear the bar, and order the proper officer, who had given it to him, to depose it on oath before them. He had said, that the whole expenses of the old system were 63,000 l., and that his new plan would cause a saving of 36,000 l. a year; and he found out

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by the simplest mode in the world—namely, by subtracting from 63,000 l., the expense of the new plan, 34,000 l., that there remained 29,000 l.; and adding to it the Lord Chancellor's salary, which might be placed on another fund 7,000 l., it would produce a saving of 36,000 l. And he assured the noble Lord, if he applied to the proper officer, that he would get the same results. His noble friend still seemed to dissent from him, and feared he had been only misled by him. But how had he come by the information? Why, by means of the proper officers. Let those officers be called to the bar and sworn, if his noble and learned friend wished, it. He should have no objection to this. He had shown their Lordships, too, how the saving he proposed to make would be effected; but his noble and learned friend., who had said that he knew little about the matter, and had proved that he really knew nothing, declared that he could not conceive how this saving could be made. But how could he help this? How could he help his noble and learned friend's want of conception? How could he do more than reply to his noble and learned friend in his own way, and say, that he could not conceive how his noble and learned friend could find a difficulty in understanding simple arithmetic. But his noble and learned friend said, that the object of this Bill was, to conciliate the merchants of the city of London. Undoubtedly, he was gratified that his Bill should have been supported by a petition signed by 4,600 persons connected with the mercantile interests of the metropolis, and he must say, that any objection against that petition came with a bad grace from those who were ready to trumpet forth the independence and integrity of the mercantile classes, beyond all endurance of panegyric, when they could receive any assistance from them in their opposition to Reform. If the authority of these classes was good for one thing, it was good also for another: and yet the House was to be told that it must listen to the merchants of London when they presented a petition on political subjects, on which they must know comparatively little, and that it must turn a deaf ear to them when they presented a petition on a subject which they must know best of all,—he meant their own interest in matters of bankruptcy. "Who doubted," said his noble and learned friend, "that all these respectable
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persons would put their signatures to a petition in favour of a measure which would transfer the expense of matters in bankruptcy from themselves to the country?" Now the old plan was to pay the Commissioners by fees levied on the bankrupt's estate, and these fees were all specified—
Lord Wynford.—Is that in the Bill?
The Lord Chancellor.—No.
Lord Wynford.—Hear, hear.
The Lord Chancellorwished that his noble friend would not merely cry "Hear, hear," but would also listen, and not only listen, but inwardly digest what he had to say on this subject. If his noble and learned friend would only bring an equal mind to the consideration of this subject, and would calmly apply his excellent understanding to a full investigation of it, he would see, that he (the Lord Chancellor) could not put this in the Bill, for the Bill related to the future expense of the system. Whoever had heard of such a preamble as this—"Whereas such and such fees are now taken by the Commissioners of Bankrupts, and it is expedient that they should cease and determine, be it enacted, &c.?" Such a preamble must contain every fee taken by the Commissioners, and would, therefore, soon run to a most inconvenient and disagreeable length. No such preamble ever was on the Statute Book, nor was ever dreamt of even in a fairy tale. The fees, moreover, were not taken away by this Bill. If his noble friend could show that by this Bill the fees were to cease and determine, and the Consolidated Fund was to provide for the salaries of the Commissioners, let him show it; but he contended, that all this Bill did, was to say, that instead of 63,000 l. odd which you now pay in fees in Bankruptcy, you shall in future only pay 34,000 l. a year. In like manner you shall have a reduction in the fees paid in the Masters' and Registrar's office to that extent which he had already stated. All the expense was, in future, to be raised in the same way as at present; it would, however, be less in amount, and all that diminution in amount would be a saving to the suitor. He could assure his noble and learned friend, that if he wished it, all the minute particulars of the expenses of his new plan should be laid on the Table of the House. Those particulars would be found to be such as he had stated them, and he had got them from the most respectable men in the profession.

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Their Lordships should examine them themselves, and if they so thought fit, they should have the individuals and their books produced before them. That was, of all things, the thing which he most sired. "But," said his noble friend, "new Judges were made unnecessarily, with new salaries." Now all that he proposed to do was, to make ten Judges instead of seventy Judges in matters of bankruptcy. The salaries of these Judges would be 21,000 l. a-year instead of 28,000 l., their present amount,—and he allowed 13,200 l. for the Registrar and his clerks, and all the other expenses. He had been told by some persons that he had pared down these expenses too much: but he had reason to believe, that if he had been even still more stingy, he could have got persons of respectability and talent to perform the duties. He objected, however, to having this Bill considered as a matter of economy. Nothing had done more harm than an unwise regard to a miserable economy; and he had often had occasion to lament, that it should be considered as superior to all other considerations. He believed that cheap justice was a benefit to a country: but cheap justice might in the event, turn out to be dear justice if cheap justice should turn out to be bad justice. He said that injustice was always expensive, and that the country might pay too little for justice.
Earl Greybegged leave to ask if there was any question before the House?
Lord Wynfordexpressed his regret that he had been misconceived in some instances, and misconstrued in others, with respect to the observations which he had offered on the Bankruptcy Bill. In his opinion, the saving' of money ought not to be made the paramount consideration in a measure of so much importance to the country as this measure. The object which he should rather have endeavoured to obtain would have been to have justice well administered, and, compared with this most important object, economy was a very secondary consideration. In order, however, that a comparison might be instituted on this ground between the existing system of the Bankrupt Laws, and that which was proposed to be substituted by the noble Lord on the Woolsack, he should beg to move at once for a return of the emoluments received by the Commissioners of Bankrupt within the last three antecedent to the present year.
The Lord Chancellorso far agreed in what had fallen from the noble Lord, and was so anxious to see that comparison instituted which was intimated, that he would very willingly second the Motion of the noble Lord, in order that the real amount of the receipts of the Commissioners of Bankrupt might be ascertained. He might, however, mention incidentally, that 60,000 l. was the whole of the money which was now raised for the purpose of paying the Commissioners for the space of one year, including all the expenses of the Court, and assigning, &c. There was, of course, an exception to be made with respect to the fees which these Commissioners received for their private practice, and which, of course, could not be ascertained: nor, indeed, was it necessary that it should. He must, however, beg to inform the noble Lord, that he had already, with a view to ascertain correctly the receipts of the seventy Commissioners, sent round circulars to them all, requesting a return of the money received by them in their capacity during the course of the year. He had received twenty of these returns, and he was in expectation of receiving the remainder to-morrow, when he would lay them before their Lordships, and possibly save their Lordships all further trouble in regard to the motion now before the House.
Lord Wynfordthought it necessary to press his Motion.
The Lord Chancellorexplained, that the Commissioners of Bankrupt held no appointment from the Government as such, but merely consisted of a number of barristers, to whom the Lord Chancellor sent round the Commissions in turn. The course was different with respect to the country, where the Commission was directed to any barrister who might be chosen for that office by the attorney who strikes the docket. It would, therefore, be perceived, that if the motion of the noble Lord meant to include a return of the fees received by the seventy Commissioners as practising barristers, it would be going beyond the necessary bounds, though he had no doubt that these gentlemen would have little hesitation in making that statement if it were decorously required of them. On the whole, therefore, he thought that as he was the returning officer, whose duty it would be to present those documents to their Lordships, it would be better to await the communica-

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tions from the commissioners, and he trusted he should lie under no suspicion of "wishing to withhold any documents which were necessary for the information of their Lordships on this important subject.
Lord Wynforddisclaimed all idea of casting any suspicion on the noble Lord on the Woolsack; but he contended, in opposition to what had fallen from that noble Lord, that the Commissioners, of Bankrupt were bonà fide public officers, and, as such, were bound to make such returns connected with their duties, as were required from them on the part of all competent authorities.
Lord Ellenboroughagreed in the view of the condition of the Commissioners of Bankrupt which was taken by the noble Lord on the cross-benches; for, in his opinion, any person who receives the public money is a public officer, and, as such, is liable to be called upon for returns which are connected with his official duties.
Earl Greycorroborated what had fallen from the two noble Barons who had last spoken, with respect to the liability of Commissioners of Bankrupt to be called upon, as public officers in the receipt of the public money, for returns of their receipts as public officers, but not as to their receipts as practising barristers.
The motion was agreed to and returns were ordered to be made by the Secretary to the Court of Bankrupts of the emoluments of the Commissioners of that Court during the years 1828, 1829, and 1830.