Lords Sitting of 4 March 1831

MINUTES.
Bills. The Appropriation Bill, Consolidated Fund Bill, and Officers' Salaries Bill, passed through a Committee. The Dublin Asylum, and Manchester Gas Lights' Bills, were read a first time.
Petitions presented. By Lord RODEN, from the parish of St. Peter, Hereford, for the Privilege of Endowing Churches. By the Earl of KINNOUL, from the Keepers of Post-horses and Carriages of Perthshire, Clackmannanshire, Fifeshire, and Forfarshire, for the Abolition of the Duties on Horses and Carriages let for hire:—By the Duke of GORDON, to the same effect, from the Counties of Aberdeen and Inverness. By the Earl of HARDWICK, from Royston, against the Coal Duties; also from some parts of Cambridge, Norfolk, and Caermarthenshire, praying for the Abolition of Negro Slavery. By the Earl of RADNOR, from the Congregation of Conway Chapel, and other districts of Caermarthen, with the same prayer; also from Sandhurst and Newenden, for the Repeal of the Malt Duties. By Lord CARBERRY, from certain Shipowners, &c. of Sunderland, against laying an additional Duty on Timber imported from our own Colonies. By Earl GREY, from Oakhampton, in favour of Reform:— By the Earl of KINNOUL, for certain Districts of Forfar-shire, to the same effect.

TITHES AND CATHOLICS (IRELAND).
Viscount Clifdenpresented a Petition from the Parishioners of Graig and Ullard, in the diocese of Leighlin, praying for Relief against the System of Tithe Collecting in that parish. He took that opportunity of making a few observations on the subject; and, in the first place, with reference to a statement made by his noble friend (Lord Farnham) the other night, he
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had received a letter from Dr. Doyle, the Roman Catholic Prelate, in which that right reverend Prelate stated, that the Mr. Doyle to whom his noble friend had referred, was not a nephew or cousin of the right reverend Prelate, but a relation so distant, that he was no relation at all. Dr. Doyle had certainly too much sense to encourage any tumultuous opposition to tithes; nor indeed did he believe that his noble friend had said, that Dr. Doyle had anything to do with the matter. Mr. Doyle denied having encouraged any tumultuous meetings against tithes, and he was a very respectable man. He had, indeed, received a letter from a Magistrate, in which he stated, that many persons had been ready to make affidavits that Mr. Doyle had not harangued the people, nor promoted resistance to the payment of tithes. He also knew, however, that it had been stated, that affidavits of a directly contrary tendency could be produced. But he agreed in the remark made by a noble Secretary of State (Lord Melbourne) the other day, that in a state of so much excitement and irritation, it was not difficult to procure affidavits from either of the parties against the other. In considering the subject of tithes in Ireland, it was necessary to keep in view, that there

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were two great hierarchies—from the Archbishop down to the Curate. On the me side was the revenue, and on the other he preponderance of property and population. The party with the small revenue envied the party with the large, and the party with the larger feared the party with the small, when backed by property and numbers. It might be said, "Oh, it is not to be supposed that the Catholic Clergy would envy the Protestant Clergy their possession of the tithes, nor was it possible that the Protestant Clergy should hate or fear the Catholic." Well, be it so; but, in the meantime, it was absolutely necessary that these violent courses should be put an end to, otherwise the Protestant Clergy must be reduced to starvation; for he tithes would not be paid. The truth was, that the two parties would never agree well together, until a liberal provision should be made for the Roman Catholic Clergy. This was what was intended to be clone by Mr. Pitt and Lord Castlereagh, when they proposed, thirty years ago, to bring forward the motion which the noble Duke had carried two years ago. But the noble Duke did not undertake to make a provision for the Catholic Clergy by his measure, and he was not surprised at it, for he had enough on his hands, without meddling also with that; but, at the same time, it was a thing that must, at some time or other, be done. Perhaps some might think that the Church property of Ireland ought to be divided between the two hierarchies. But he was persuaded that this could not properly be done. The loudest clamour would be set up against it, and it might be attended with disadvantages, which would more than counterbalance the benefit. The Church revenue, therefore, he apprehended, must be left with the Protestant Clergy, while the Catholic hierarchy was paid by voluntary contribution from their flocks, and both were a heavy burthen on the country. Something, however, must he done to relieve the country from this heavy burthen of a double hierarchy. The Rev. Mr. Alcock, the Rector of Graig, was a man who had reached a considerable age—a very respectable man, and very well behaved. The parish was a large one, and he had perhaps less than his strict dues, when he accepted of 720 l.. a year. Mr. Doyle had been priest of the parish, and a Mr. Macdonell was Mr. Alcock's Curate, and against neither of
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them did he mean to say anything. But they were both clever men, in the prime of life, and of great activity, and it was not perhaps surprising, if they were apt to come into collision. Upon the whole he was convinced, that these disputes could never be put an end to, nor could the parties be pacified, until a liberal provision was made for the Catholic Clergy, and sooner or later the subject must be taken up by the Legislature.
Lord Farnhamthought himself called upon to make a few observations on the statement of his noble friend. He had no sort of doubt but that many letters would be written on the subject, owing to the statement which he had thought it his duty to make the other night, and owing partly, no doubt, to the state of excitement in which the minds of the Irish people were kept on the subject of tithes. As to his statement, he had only said that which he had good reason to believe to be true. He had never stated, nor pretended to state, the genealogy of the Doyle race, about which he had no positive information, although he had been informed that Mr. Doyle, who was, or had been, parish priest of Graig, was a relative of Doctor Doyle, the Catholic Archbishop, who had promoted him. But he had no reason to doubt the facts which he had mentioned, which were, that Mr. Doyle had harangued the people against the payment of tithes, and had suggested measures to resist that payment—that he had encouraged tumultuous assemblies with the same view, and had made propositions to them on the subject, and encouraged them to adopt measures for securing a reduction of tithes —that tumultuous meetings were in consequence held on the subject of tithes, and for the purpose of resisting the payment, or reducing the amount. These were facts which had not been denied, and he was fully authorised in stating them. As for Mr. Doyle himself, he had said, that he was a person of great talent and activity, and he formerly had a very high opinion of him; but since he had been promoted by Dr. Doyle, he had assumed a very different character from that which he bore when he (Lord Farnham) first knew him. As to the proposition for granting a liberal provision out of the public money for the support of the Catholic Clergy, that was a plan in which he could never concur; and if ever it was proposed, he would resist it to the

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utmost of his power; and the principle on which he did it was this—that he never could con sent to make a Church a member of the State, which he believed to be completely in error. The Roman Catholic Church was founded in error, and ought never to be made a constituent member of a Protestant State. He fully agreed that some vigorous measures "ought to be adopted, to repel the conspiracy which existed in some parts of Ireland, against the payment of tithes, otherwise the Clergy of the Protestant Church there, would be left without a revenue, except through the medium of a distress; for there appeared to be conspiracies existing to refuse the payment of tithes by any other method.
Viscount Clifden.—The letters which he had received stated, that Mr. Doyle denied these charges point blank, and that he was preparing affidavits in contradiction to them. As to a provision for the Roman Catholic Clergy, they had the best of all titles to such a provision, for they possessed the flocks.
Petition laid on the Table.

MINISTERIAL PLAN OF REFORM.
The Lord Chancellorstated, that he had a variety of Petitions in his hand, praying for Parliamentary Reform. On that subject he would imitate the proper and prudent example of the noble Lords who had alluded to it the other night, and would abstain, for the present, from making any observations on the plan of Reform now under consideration in the other House, reserving himself till the question should come regularly before their Lordships for discussion.
The Duke of Buckinghambegged to interrupt the noble Lord, to inquire if these petitions prayed for the Ballot?
The Lord Chancellorcould not undertake to say that he had classed the whole of the Petitions, but a great part of them was from Scotch Counties and Boroughs, and he was not aware that any predilection for the Ballot had prevailed in that country. If it had extended to that country at all, it was certain that it was not generally prevalent. His Lordship then presented Petitions, praying for Parliamentary Reform, from St. Pancras, the borough of Ferres, from Petersfield, from Ludlow, from Lyme Regis, from Newburgh, in Fife, from Roxburgh, from St. Luke's, in Middlesex, from Fain, from Thurse,
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and from different places in Yorkshire and other Counties—in ail thirty-one. He had to apologise to the very respectable and numerous persons by whom the petitions had been signed, in thus reading them like a catalogue, instead of presenting them one by one, and having the prayers of them read in the ordinary manner. But he trusted that he should be excused, when it was considered, there being such a multitude of these Petitions brought forward, and in the course of being brought forward, that their Lordships would be overwhelmed with them, and a great deal of valuable time would be lost, if the ordinary course were to be followed.
The Duke of Norfolkspoke as follows: I am anxious, my Lords, to avail myself of this opportunity, publicly to express the high pleasure and satisfaction which I have derived from that excellent and admirable measure of Reform which his Majesty's Ministers have introduced into the other House of Parliament—a measure remarkably calculated to ensure the public confidence, and a general attachment to the institutions of the country. It is a measure which cannot fail to prove highly satisfactory to the nation, since it will be one of the best guarantees that could be devised for the public prosperity, and for the liberties and the happiness of all classes of his Majesty's subjects. There is already proof that it has been regarded with high satisfaction by the country, for a Common Council has been held this day in London, and a Meeting in Westminster, for the purpose of conveying to his Majesty's Ministers the sense of gratitude entertained towards them by these most important portions of the community, for the comprehensive and effective, yet wise, moderate, and prudent plan of Reform which they have submitted to Parliament; and it is worthy of remark, that the addresses were agreed to unanimously. It is to be regretted, that much excitement and irritation has prevailed in this country of late, in consequence of distress among the humbler and poorer classes, but nothing could be better calculated to allay these feelings than such a measure as this. I myself have always been a friend to Reform. I have been so from an early period of my life, as is well known to my noble friend at the head of the Administration. I am one of those who must suffer some loss from the adoption of the plan

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of Reform now under comsideration; but still I rejoice that such a measure has been brought forward; and I shall rejoice still more, if it should be passed into a law. I would gladly sacrifice ten times as much as I shall be called on to sacrifice, for the sake of a measure which will form so admirable a safeguard for the liberties of the subject, and is so well calculated to promote in every way the best interests of the nation.
The Petitions presented by the Lord Chancellor were then laid on the Table.

AGITATION FOR THE REPEAL OF THE UNION.
The Earl of Wicklowrose to present a Petition from certain Noblemen, Gentlemen, Magistrates, and Occupiers of Land in the County of Wicklow, declaring their abhorrence of those measures of agitation which had lately prevailed in various parts of Ireland, under the pretence of procuring a Repeal of the Union between Great Britain and Ireland. They stated, that they could regard such a repeal in no other light than as a dismemberment of the empire; and they prayed that the Legislature should adopt some strong measure to put an end to these agitations, which prevented the enjoyment by Ireland of those advantages which they had been led to expect from the Union. He was aware that agitation was no new feature in that country, for it prevailed among all classes before the passing of the measure for admitting the Roman Catholics into the Constitution, which had received the assent of the Legislature two years ago. Before that time, it was not surprising, that there should be constant agitation among all classes, but now that these political divisions were abolished, and that all classes were admitted to the privileges and blessings of the Constitution—when there was a real, instead of a nominal union, the petitioners thought it hard, that by these disturbances they should be deprived of the advantages which had been held out to them more than thirty years ago, as likely to result from the Union. He recollected, that the late Secretary for Ireland had mentioned in the House of Commons, last year, that there were several measures of amelioration in contemplation, to be brought forward for Ireland; and the noble Marquis (Lansdown) had mentioned something of the same kind previous to the recess. Now, considering that the present Ministers had had the advantage of
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whatever previous arrangements might have been made by the former Ministers, he was rather surprised that none of these measures had been as yet brought before either House of Parliament. The noble Marquis had said, that they could not all be brought forward in the present Session; but he was rather surprised that none had as yet appeared. He was anxious that they should be brought forward, and if he found them calculated to be of advantage to Ireland they would meet with his cordial co-operation. He had no doubt but that his Majesty's Ministers were aware of the awful situation of that country, and he was anxious that there should be as little delay as possible in the application of such remedies as it might be in the power of the Administration to apply.
Earl Greysaid, that no man could more fully concur than he did in the views of the petitioners, when they stated, that the agitation which had been lately set on foot was most pernicious to Ireland. He fully concurred with them too, that the object of the agitation would, if attained, be most disadvantageous, if not fatal, to the empire, and that the Repeal of the Union, if carried, would lead to its dismemberment. This was his view of the question, and so thinking of it, he, for one, in whatever situation he might be placed would give to any project for the Repeal of the Union his most decided and determined opposition. As to the prayer of the petition, that the Legislature should adopt some strong measures for putting down the agitation, most undoubtedly he should be prepared to apply to the Legislature to arm the Government with additional powers to put an end to these excesses, in case it should appear that such a course was necessary. But as long as the Government could entertain a reasonable hope that they could be restrained by the existing law, it was highly desirable to abstain from applying for additional powers. It did not require the recommendation of the petitioners to call the most anxious attention of the Government to this subject. The Government had already carefully and continually attended to it; and he appealed to their Lordships, whether there was any want of due attention, vigour, and decision in the Government of Ireland, in making use of the means afforded by the existing law to put an end to these pernicious tumults and agitations. And here he could not deny

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himself the satisfaction of bearing his testimony to the wise and prudent, yet vigorous course which the Lord Lieutenant and the Irish Government had adopted, in the trying crisis in which they were placed; and it was to be hoped, that they would be enabled, by means of the existing law, to put down a system of agitation which was so detrimental to members of the community, but more particularly to those who were deluded by it. As to the notice which had been given of an intention on the part of the late Secretary for Ireland and his noble friend, respecting his intention to bring forward measures for the amelioration of Ireland, the noble Earl ought to consider that his Majesty's Ministers had had a great deal of other business in hand; that much was to be done before the measures in question could be put in such a shape as to be brought before Parliament. One measure had been already prepared—that which related to the Subletting Act; but it had been found necessary to send it back to Ireland, in order to have it as clear as possible from objections when it should be brought before the House. The bill, it was expected, would soon be returned from Ireland, and when returned, no time would be lost in laying it before Parliament.
The Duke of Wellingtonwished to ask the noble Earl, whether it was his intention to renew the law giving the Lord Lieutenant powers to suppress illegal meetings by Proclamation? The noble Earl was aware that it would expire in no very long time.
Earl Greyreplied, that it was certainly his intention at present to propose to the Legislature the renewal of the law in question, before the period of its expiration.
The Marquis of Londonderrywas surprised that the noble Earl (Wicklow) should now reproach the Ministers with delay, when he had formerly complained of them for their promptitude and activity. He fully concurred in the compliment that had been paid to the Lord Lieutenant and Irish Government.
The Earl of Wicklowhad only observed on a former occasion, that he was afraid that Ministers might undertake too much if they did more, at the outset, than adopt the measures prepared by their predecessors. The late Secretary for Ireland had stated in his place, that it was in contemplation to bring forward seven or eight measures
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for the amelioration of Ireland, and be had been led to infer from that, that they might have been in such a state of forwardness as to enable the present Ministers to introduce them without much delay. He most fully concurred in the just tribute of praise that had been paid to the Lord Lieutenant and the Irish Government, who had conducted themselves with equal prudence and courage.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, that the measures which the present Ministers meant to propose were not those which their predecessors might have had in contemplation. To be sure the subjects to which they related were the same, but the principles and views on which they were founded had not been pointed out by the late Ministers, but had been laid down in a most valuable Report of a Committee of the other House, the Chairman of which now held a high situation in his Majesty's Government. The notice given by the Secretary for Ireland, in the course of the last Session, was, that it was in contemplation to introduce measures founded on these reports. The present Ministers had the same principles, recommendations, and evidence before them as the late Ministers; but it did not follow that they were to adopt exactly the same measures. They had their measures to prepare for themselves, and every possible attention had been paid to them. But then, when it was considered what details were to be gone through, and how many points required attention, and how many technical objections were to be guarded against, it must be obvious that some time must elapse before these measures could be put into a proper shape for introduction into Parliament. Before they were brought forward, it was necessary that all the details should be thoroughly sifted.
Petition laid on the Table.

COMMITTEE ON THE POOR-LAWS REPORT.
The Marquis of Salisburylaid on the Table of the House the evidence given before the Committee on the state of the Poor, as far as it had been hitherto taken, and called the attention of their Lordships particularly to that part of it which related to the advantage which the poor would derive from having plots of land in their occupation.
Earl Stanhopealso recommended that part of the evidence to the attention of

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their Lordships. He thought the plan would be attended with great advantage.
The Duke of Richmondthought, that it would have been better to have reserved the evidence until the whole of it had been taken; and the Committee had been occupied from the morning till four o'clock in discussing whether this portion of the evidence should be laid before the House now or not. He was anxious that it should not go forth to the public that giving the poor garden-plots was all the measure of relief which the Committee meant to recommend. The opinion of the Chairman might not be that of the Committee, and it was but fair that the noble Marquis should have stated that to the House. In his opinion, the distress— more particularly in the south-eastern districts of the country, arose from a superabundance of population—that was, in the existence in these districts of more hands than could find employment; so that the wages of labour were reduced to too low a rate, and many could not find employment at all for a great part of the year. Under these circumstances, he thought that a voluntary emigration might be attended with advantage, and that a plan might be devised, to enable such as chose it to emigrate to the Colonies, where there was a great demand for labour, and where the labourers were well paid. In the mean time, perhaps, it would have been better that the subject should not have been alluded to at all.
The Marquis of Salisburynever meant to say that giving the poor plots of ground was all that the Committee intended to recommend for them, nor was he aware that he had made any such statement. He had only recommended to the attention of their Lordships one point, which he thought had, on the evidence, been clearly made out. He had not said, that the plots of ground were to be limited merely to gardens.
Earl Stanhopeconcurred with the noble Marquis, that it was never meant to be stated, nor was it stated, that all that the Committee had to recommend for the advantage of the poor was the allowing them some allotments of ground, nor was it intended that these allotments should be confined to garden-plots. Every one must be aware of the advantage which the poor man derived from being able to keep a cow. In his opinion, it was highly proper that the evidence should, from
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time to time, be laid before the House, that the different subjects might be discussed, from time to time, before the Committee should make their Report.
The Duke of Richmondhad no inclination to prolong the conversation. His only object was, that there should be no misconception. His own wish was, that the Committee should have waited till it could make its report; but since the secrets of the prison-house must come out, he would mention, that some were of opinion that the poor should have one acre, some that they should have two, and some three. The noble Earl (Stanhope), to be sure, had not said much about currency, but he made ample amends by means of a witness which he produced, and who recommended, as the grand specific for the relief of the country, an alteration in the currency.
Lord Suffieldconcurred in the opinion, that it would be useful that the poor should have small allotments of land, but he certainly was not of opinion that the relief to be given to the poor ought to be confined to that. He was of opinion that where there was a superabundance of population, the plan of voluntary emigration might be properly resorted to. But superabundance of population was a relative term, and meant that there were more hands than could find employment. The business, therefore, was, to find employment for the poor, and he was of opinion, that every possible means ought to be adopted for finding them employment at home, before any encouragement was held out to them to emigrate to the colonies or any where else.
The Earl of Carnarvonthought, that if these interminable conversations went on, the time of the House would be as much misspent as the noble Duke represented that of the Committee to have been that day. He thought that it would be advantageous that the evidence should be laid from time to time before the House; and that portion of it now presented, certainly did go strongly to make out that it would be desirable that the poor should have small allotments of land. As to emigration, to compel that was entirely out of the question, but he did think that it would afford considerable relief to the poor to enable them to emigrate to the colonies, where there was a great demand for labour, and where, consequently, the remuneration for it was ample,