Lords Sitting of 1 March 1831

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. For the Abolition of Slavery, by the Bishop of LITCHFIELD and COVENTRY, from Coventry and other places in his Diocese. By the Duke of NORTHUMBERLAND, from certain Roman Catholics of the County of Gala-ay, for the extension of the Elective Franchise to the Catholics, in the same manner as to the Protestants. By Lord WHARNCLIFFE, for the Repeal of the Duty on Coals from Newcastle, and from South Shields. For Parliamentary Reform, by the Duke of GORDON, from Banff, Scotland; also from Bristol, praying that Ballot and Universal Suffage might be rejected from any plan of Reform that might be brought forward:—By Lord KING, from Farmers and Landowners in certain Parishes in Sussex, and for a Commutation of Tithes:—By the Karl of SHAFTESBURY, from Warwick:—By the LORD CHANCELLOR, from Manchester, and from Salford, which might be considered as forming a part of Manchester: the former signed by l2,000, and the latter by 2,000; from the Merchants and Manufacturers of Halifax, in Yorkshire, signed by 6,670 persons; from Elland; from Wakefield; and from Harlington, Lincolnshire:—By the Earl of RADNOR, from Basingstoke, Lymington, Cork, and Headcorn:—By the Earl of CARLISLE, from Beverley. Against the General Register Bill, by Lord MELBORNE, from Stradbally and Ballylaneen; for an alteration in the disposal of the Grants for Education (Ireland) and for a Revision of the Poor-Laws, from Sherington.

CHANCERY REFORM.
The Lord Chancellormoved, that the order for the committal of the Lunatic Bill be discharged. The Bill was not yet ready for having the blanks filled up, but it would be ready by to-morrow. He did not mean

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to steal a march on his noble and learned friend (Wynford); but would, as he had before intimated, re-commit the bill on Monday, that their Lordships might have an opportunity of discussing the principle. He wished to take this opportunity of adverting to the calculation made the other night by the noble and learned Chief Baron, as to the diminution from the emoluments of the Lord Chancellor, by the Reform Bills. He had examined into the subject further, and he was only the more convinced, that his own calculation was correct, and that of the noble and learned Chief Baron wrong. He had stated the diminution at 7,500 l. while the noble and learned Chief Baron estimated it at 2,500 l. But that noble and learned person had done so by an error in fact, and an error in arithmetic. He had proceeded on the assumption, that the fees of the country Commissioners were not to be abolished. That was an error in fact, for they were included in the fees to be abolished. There was a fee of 6l. to the Lord Chancellor on the certificate, and of all other absurdities this was the most gross. What was a certificate? It was a discharge granted by the creditors, and certified by the Lord Chancellor, so as to make it an answer to all actions at law, &c, and it proceeded on the recital that the bankrupt had complied with all the legal requisites—that is, that he had given up every farthing he had in the world; and then the Lord Chancellor said, "I certify that you have given up all you had in the world, and now pay me 6l." This was to the last degree absurd, and it was one of those abuses that was to be and ought to be put an end to. The other error of the noble and learned Chief Baron was one of arithmetic. The real fact was this. The gross amount of the Lord Chancellor's emoluments was 17,000 l. Out of this, 2,500 l. was paid to the Vice-chancellor, leaving 14,500 l. From this sum, 7,500 l. was taken by these reforms, leaving for the Lord Chancellor only 7,000 l., as he had before stated. He also took the opportunity of rectifying a mistake which had, as he understood, arisen in some quarters, as if he had said that 7,000 l. a year was quite sufficient income for the Lord Chancellor. He considered this as no great compliment to his generosity or common sense, whatever it might be to his wealth. That a man who was
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in a situation in which he would be forced to spend 10,000 l. a year, whether he would or not, should make up the deficiency of 3,000 l. out of his own private fortune was scarcely to be expected from one whose fortune was not ample? and that, too, for the pleasure of hearing and deciding causes, and other hard labour. The pleasure, however exquisite it might be, would be thus purchased too dear. A complaint had been made in some quarters too, that he had, in his speech the other night, said more than was necessary as to the fees in the Masters' Office. But it was not optional with him whether to make the statements or not, for he had disclosed nothing but what he had been obliged to disclose before. Applications had been made to him to be examined before a Committee of the House of Commons. Their Lordships gave him leave to go, and he did go, and there he was obliged to state every particular respecting the Masters' Office, which he had stated in his speech, and in greater detail than in his speech. It was there, on the Minutes of that Committee, ready to be printed, so that it was quite useless for him to deprive his general argument of the advantage afforded by the statement, when that statement had been before openly made. But, to show the inconsistencies of the objections made to the disclosures in his speech, he had to inform their Lordships, that in other quarters he had been blamed for screening the Masters' Office, and not being so open in his communications as he ought to have been. The charges were unfounded both in the one way and in the other. It was true that one individual among the Masters had refused to take certain fees, but it was quite impossible for one man to effect a thorough Reform, unless supported by the head of the department and the general law of the country.
Lord Wynfordwas extremely happy to hear that the noble and learned Lord meant to diminish the expense of bankruptcy proceedings. It was a reform which was much called for. He was not aware of the particulars of his noble and learned friend's plan, but he hoped the matter would be placed on a proper footing, by a permanent law, and that the examinations should be taken in the ordinary way, by a Judge. It would, he thought, be a great improvement if the Judge were to have a diserc-

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tionary power, to decide whether or not the certificate should be granted, even although the creditors should agree to it, as this would prevent many frauds.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that he would be glad to avail himself of his noble and learned friend's great experience, in making the Bankruptcy Bill as perfect as possible. He felt the weight of what his noble and learned friend had said, and very likely, in the course of his experience, he had known many instances of what were called white-washing Commissioners.
Lord Ellenboroughobserved, that as the noble and learned Chief Baron had been in office a considerable time longer than the noble and learned Lord who now sat on the Woolsack, it was probable that he was much better acquainted with the sources of the emoluments of the office than the present Lord Chancellor, and more accurate in his calculations.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that he had since examined the matter, and was satisfied that he was in the right, and he intended to call for the account and lay it on the Table. It was merely a matter of arithmetic.
Lord Ellenboroughreplied, that it appeared, then, that the noble and learned Lord had paid more attention to his fees and sources of emolument during the three months he had been in office than the noble and learned Chief Baron had paid to them during the three and a half years in which he had held the Great Seal.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, if I had looked narrowly and anxiously into the subject of my fc6s and sources of emolument for the purpose of increasing them, then I might have deserved the sarcasm in which the noble Lord has been pleased to indulge respecting me. If I had stood out obstinately against legal Reform, merely on account of the diminution in fees which I should suffer on account of these Reforms; if I had opposed the most important improvements on account of the pecuniary loss which would thereby fall on myself, and had refused to surrender anything without ample compensation, then I must have been prepared to bear such a sarcasm with an equal mind, and must have expected to be told, that I had looked more narrowly and anxiously into the sources of my emolument than my predecessor had done. But when I have
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looked into them, not for the purpose of increasing them, but for the purpose of giving much of them up for the good of the public, and when I have done so readily and at once, the first moment that the opportunity was afforded, flinging myself, or rather, flinging the office upon the discretion of Parliament, as to the amount of income which a person holding that, office ought to enjoy; when I have done all this, and sacrificed patronage to such a great extent, it is a little too much to be tauntingly told by any man, however celebrated he may be for his judicial disinterestedness and magnanimous disregard of fees, that I have been more remarkable than others in looking narrowly and sharply into the sources of my emoluments.
Lord Ellenboroughdenied, that he had meant to throw out a sarcasm; but the noble and learned Lord had, in his speech, adverted to the subject, of compensation for the emoluments which he gave up. He was unwilling to say anything as to himself; but if the noble and learned Lord, or any one else, would bring the subject of the fees of the office held by him before their Lordships, he was ready to meet him. The emoluments which he-derived from that office were the covenanted remuneration for the services rendered to the public by his father as Lord Chief Justice and to these emoluments he had as good a title as any noble Lord in that House had to the estates which he derived from his ancestors.
The Earl of Radnorobserved, that the noble Lord had spoken in such a way, that he had understood his words as being-designed to be sarcastic; but whether they were meant to be sarcastic or not, they were extremely ill-timed and ill-applied. His noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack, had been driven to the investigation by the observations of the noble and learned Chief Baron, and it was highly proper that he should set the matter in its proper light and on its proper footing. When his noble and learned Friend had made that speech, which had been heard within these walls and read out of doors with so much admiration and de- light—he spoke of the sources of the Lord Chancellor's emoluments from the information of others; but when the accuracy of his statement was questioned, what was more natural, and more proper, than that he should make further inquiries into the

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subject? Indeed, they had scarcely done their duty to his noble and learned friend, for he had not been at all complimented as he deserved for his really magnanimous disinterestedness, and total disregard of his own private concerns and personal comfort in comparison with the interests of the public. The House had broken up rather abruptly, otherwise he had intended to discharge that duty if no other had done so. Certain it was, that in whatever estimation his noble and learned friend's conduct was held in that House, it was regarded out of doors with that admiration which such truly generous, patriotic, and disinterested conduct deserved! On the public, both in town and in the country, the conduct of his noble and learned friend had made its due impression, and was duly estimated.
Lord Ellen boroughrepeated, that he did not mean to speak sarcastically.
The Marquis of Londonderryhighly approved of the noble and learned Lord's Reforms, especially in the manner of taking evidence in Courts of Equity. He himself had been extremely harassed, when he was concerned in a Chancery case, with affidavits, and had been exposed to a great deal of delay, vexation, and expense, which he might have avoided if the examination had been viva voce. He thought the noble and disinterested conduct of the noble and learned Lord was worthy of all praise.
The Earl of Winchilseaagreed that the noble and learned Lord ought to have been complimented for his admirable and eloquent speech, and for his generous and disinterested conduct. Any taunting remark about the noble and learned Lord's looking narrowly into his fees, came with an ill grace from the noble Lord, whoso fees of office, as he was informed, equalled the emoluments of the Lord Chancellor of England. The noble Lord had said, that he had as good a title to his fees as any of their Lordships had to the estates which descended to them from their ancestors; but then he ought to consider, that their Lordships had made sacrifices to the public out of these estates, to the amount of thirty-five or forty per cent, and supposing that the noble Lord had as good a title to his fees as they had to their estates, he ought to imitate their conduct, and sacrifice something to the public in these distressed times. Nothing-could be more unbecoming than to make
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sarcastic remarks, under such circumstances on the conduct of the noble and learned Lord, who had so liberally and disinterestedly sacrificed so much of his emoluments and patronage for the public advantage; and he had no doubt but that conduct was duly appreciated, and regarded with the proper feelings of respect by the great majority of their Lordships and the public.
Lord Ellen boroughobserved, that the account given of his emoluments by the noble Earl was completely erroneous.