Lords Sitting of 23 June 1831

MINUTES.
Petitions presented, by Lord DUN-DAS, several Petitions from Hawick, Falkirk, and other places in Scotland, for the Reduction of Taxation, for the Abolition of Negro Slavery, and for Parliamentary Reform. By Lord KING, for the Abolition of Tithes, from Chetsford, Farnborough, Orpington, and Keston, and from several places in Ireland; as, also from Carlow, against the Grants to the Kildare Street Society, and for the Repeal of the Union; and from the Licensed Beer sellers of Brighton, to have Spirit Licences. By the Bishop of FERNS, from the Students of Trinity College, Dublin, to have their Elective Franchise assimilated to that of Cambridge and Oxford.

HIS MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that he had to inform the House, that their Lordships had waited upon his Majesty with the Address of that House, to which his Majesty was graciously pleased to return the following most gracious answer: —"My Lords—I thank you for your loyal and dutiful Address. I receive with pleasure your assurance that you will proceed to an early consideration of the matters which I have recommended to your attention; and I rely with confidence on your zealous support of my endeavours to maintain the peace and promote the prosperity of my dominions."
The Duke of Richmond moved that his Majesty's most gracious Answer to the Address be entered on the Journals.

ABUSE OF PATRONAGE (IRELAND).
Lord Plunkettsaid, that the absence of his noble friend (Earl Grey) would induce him to defer until to-morrow the adverting to a subject, the notice of which it gave him the greatest uneasiness to postpone for a single moment. He alluded to
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a most gross and scandalous libel upon himself, which had appeared in some of the public prints, purporting to be observations made by a Member of the other House of Parliament, and imputing to him (Lord Plunkett) conduct of the most unjustifiable description. The whole statement was a gross and abominable falsehood from beginning to end, and he was wholly at a loss to imagine where the materials for so foul a calumny could be found. Indeed so utterly destitute was it of the slightest semblance of truth, that he was perfectly unable to conjecture by what extraordinary effort of ingenuity such a statement could be fabricated. This statement, in which there was not one particle of truth, was put forth as having proceeded from a man of honour, a gentleman of respectability, and the Member of an important county in Ireland. And he thus adverted to the matter, to ascertain if any of their Lordships could offer any excuse for this most false, scandalous and libellous statement. He would to-morrow bring the subject under their Lordship's consideration.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, that he concluded an hon. Baronet, a friend of his, was the Member of the other House of Parliament to whose observations the noble and learned Lord alluded. He had had some conversation with his hon. friend, as to the statement of the extraordinary interference of the Government in Ireland during the late elections. Of this he was sure, that a more honourable man, or one more incapable of making any unfounded statement, injurious or libellous towards any individual whatever, did not exist. He would almost pledge his honour that for any statement which had been made by the hon. Baronet, he would be able to give such satisfactory reasons to the noble and learned Lord as would induce him not to bring the subject under public discussion, until some private explanation had been given respecting it. As far as he understood the matter, the particular statement repeated by the hon. Baronet had been made to him in Dublin, by an individual who asserted that he knew its truth. It was clear, therefore, that the hon. Baronet took his information upon trust; that his statement had been made upon hearsay. Such being the case, he was sure that the hon. Baronet would be quite ready to give up his authority. Therefore—
The Lord Chancellorapologized for

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interrupting the noble Marquis, put him right on a point of Order, but there was a distinction, perhaps subtle, but certainly necessary, which he wished to submit to the noble Marquis's consideration. If any Member of the House of Commons said any thing of any noble Lord, however gross and unfounded; if he charged any noble Lord with any offence, however scandalous and vile, it was for the House of Commons, if it so thought fit, to punish or take cognizance of the accusation; but the House of Lords had no power what ever to do so; the law of the land, the Bill of Rights, declared, that no Member of the House of Commons should be called in question elsewhere for any statement which he might think proper to make in that House. But, if any publication took place out of doors, of any statement made within the walls of the House of Commons, whoever made that publication was without any defence whatever; for he could receive no protection from the privileges enjoyed by a Member of the House of Commons. This was a plainly marked line of distinction; and the noble Marquis would, therefore, at once see, that a Member of the House of Commons could not be called over the coals in the House of Lords for any thing which had fallen from him in his own House of Parliament. Under these circumstances, therefore, the noble Marquis had, perhaps, better wait until tomorrow, when his noble and learned friend had intimated his intention of bringing the subject forward, and he might then apply his observations to the statement which had been made in the newspaper, and not to the Member of the House of Commons to whom that statement was imputed.
The Marquis of Londonderrywas obliged to the noble and learned Lord for setting him right. His only anxiety had been, to defend his hon. friend from the charge of having advanced any statement, without having, at least, some reason to believe that it was founded in truth; for the hon. Baronet alluded to had come to him that morning in great anxiety, requesting him to give this explanation, should the subject be mooted by the noble and learned Lord.
Lord Plunkettobserved, that he should bring the subject forward, not for the purpose of attacking any Member of the House of Commons for what he might
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have said in the House of Commons, or for what had been imputed to him in a newspaper; but for the purpose of publicly defending himself from one of the grossest and foullest attacks that was ever made upon an individual.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack had certainly placed the matter on its true ground. If an attack appeared upon any noble Lord in a newspaper, to whomsoever that attack was imputed, it was the duty of that noble Lord to stand forward and defend his honour and character; but if the attack was made in the other House of Parliament, then it was not open to any noble Lord to bring the conduct of that Member under their Lordships' consideration.
Lord Plunkettrepeated, that the attack upon him was of the grossest description. He was charged with trafficking in judicial and other offices for the purpose of influencing the late elections in Ireland; and with having, in one particular instance, bartered an assistant Banister's place for thirty votes. He had also been charged with promising appointments in the Church (he wished he had any to give) for similar purposes. These charges were made upon hearsay, and he called upon any man, cither in that or the other House, to state the grounds on which this gross slander was founded.
The Marquis of Londonderrycould not think it possible that his hon. friend would have brought forward such charges, without conceiving that there was some foundation for them, whether good or not; but whether these charges were to the extent represented he could give no opinion.
Lord Plunkettagain denied, that there was the slightest foundation for the charges. If any person said, that they were founded, to any extent whatever, he said that which was not true.
The Motion for inserting his Majesty's Answer to the Address in the Journals, agreed to.

BEER BILL.
The Bishop of Bathand Wells presented a Petition from the Clergy and other Inhabitants of his Diocese, praying for the Repeal of the Beer Bill. The petition was signed by every clergyman in the Diocese, and stated, that pauperism had much increased since the passing of the Act. The right rev. Pre-

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late warmly supported the prayer of the petition; and maintained, that the Bill had had a most demoralizing effect on the people. Every third or fourth house in some of the country towns was become a beer-shop; and the greatest excesses were, in consequence, committed. In Somersetshire the pernicious effects of this Bill were too palpable. He called on the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, who professed himself to be so friendly to the improvement of the people, to assist in putting an end to a system by which the people were vitiated. He called on the noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government, who was so anxious for Reform, by the repeal of the Bill in question to effect a reform of the most desirable character. With respect to the description of Reform for which the noble Earl himself was so zealous an advocate, he (the Bishop of Bath and Wells) was bound conscientiously to declare, that he could not give it his assent. At the same time he must assert, that not one of their Lordships was more ready to respect and promote the liberties of the people than he was.
The Earl of Malmesburywas glad to hear such opinions fall from the right rev. Prelate, which, he was sure, would have much weight with their Lordships. He had been by no means favourable to the Bill against which the right rev. Prelate had just presented a petition. At the same time, to repeal a law after it had passed, was a very different thing from opposing its adoption. He was quite aware, that the law had been productive of many evils; but were there not ways in which the number of those evils might be diminished? What he suggested was in no hostility whatever towards the people. On the contrary, he was influenced by a wish for their comfort, and that comfort could not be better consulted than by an improvement of their moral habits. The scenes of debauchery which occasionally took place in the beer-houses were of the grossest description. Would it not, therefore, be advantageous to give the Magistrates some control over those houses? He wished that the poor man should carry his beer home to his family, instead of exhausting his means and health in these houses of excess, and entering into scenes of the lowest debauchery. Instances had even occurred in which parties had drawn out their earnings from the savings' banks to indulge in these excesses. The Act had
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not the same bad results in large towns as in agricultural districts, which made him suppose, that the Legislature would be likely to view it in too favourable a light. He hoped his Majesty's Government would see if, by giving the Magistrates a control over these houses, or by some other legislative provision, the evils which the Bill had occasioned might not be corrected.
Viscount Melbournewillingly admitted, that the noble Earl had never shown any hostility to the people. His anxiety to improve their morals was itself a proof of the interest which he took in their welfare. He perfectly concurred also in the noble Earl's statement, that there was a great difference between objecting to a bill before it was passed, and repealing it after it had been passed. He likewise agreed with the noble Earl, that it might be practicable to add some police regulations to the Bill, which would have the effect of diminishing the evils complained of. The matter should, undoubtedly, be considered by his Majesty's Government. He should certainly say, that the opinion of the country generally was, that the effects of the Bill had been pernicious. They were, however, unequally so. The evils were not so much felt in towns. That increased the difficulty of legislating upon the subject; as one law was required for the country, and another for the town. He must say, however, that he thought the declaration in the petition, of the very sudden and extensive change which the Bill had produced in the morals of the people, was in a great measure fancy and exaggeration. He did not know how it would be possible to give the Magistrates a greater power over the beer-houses without an absolute return to the licensing system; but some police regulations seemed to he necessary, and the subject should receive the immediate attention of Government.
The Earl of Malmesbury The Earl of Malmesbury, in explanation, observed, that he by no means wished to return to the licensing system.
Lord Teynhamrecommended, as the best means of remedying the evils complained of, the abolition of the hop and malt duties, which would enable the people to brew their beer at home.
The Marquis of Salisburydid not think the Bill had been attended with that great demoralization which had been represented, although it had been injurious in many

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cases. The houses licensed under the Act, however, were falling into the hands of brewers, which he apprehended would go far to decrease the evils complained of.
Lord Kingobserved, that the different effects in the towns and the country was attributable to this circumstance—namely, that in large towns the Poor-laws were inoperative, and the poorer classes knew if they spent all their money in beer they would have no relief, and must suffer; whereas in the country, the poor man knew that if he spent any extra money which he might make at harvest time, instead of laying it by for less profitable seasons, he should not suffer, is he should have parochial relief. Though he should be sorry to see the Act repealed, he thought it might be amended.
The Bishop of Bath and Wellsexpressed his thanks to the noble Secretary of State for the Home Department, for having promised to turn his immediate attention to this important subject, and he trusted to meet with the cordial co-operation of the noble and learned Lord.
The Lord Chancellorobserved, that no pains had been wanting on his part to inquire into the subject before the Bill was passed. He agreed with the noble Earl, who had said, that it was one thing to object to the passing of the Bill, and another, the Bill having passed, to propose its repeal. He hoped that in the introduction of any superintending or controlling power, nothing would be done to alter the great principle of the measure, or tend to restore the licensing system.

EMPLOYMENT OF LABOURERS.
The Earl of Winchilseabegged leave to inquire if it was the intention of his Majesty's Government, in the course of this Session, to bring forward any plan for the purpose of affording agricultural relief, by providing for the surplus population, by home colonization or otherwise. If Government had no intention of producing any plan for the relief of the people in the agricultural districts, he gave notice that it was his intention again to lay on the Table the bill he had introduced last Session, for the purpose of compelling parishes to employ the unemployed labourer. He was convinced that some enactment of that kind was necessary, as he knew several parishes in Kent, where sixty or seventy able-bodied men were receiving weekly relief. He was certain the present state
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of things could not continue; and that if the people were left without employment, they would be ready again to break forth into outrages, and there would be a display of much worse feeling, and a more terrible and mischievous spirit, among the agricultural peasantry, than that which created so much alarm some months ago.
Viscount Goderichsaid, that it was by no means certain that there was a surplus population throughout the country—in some parts of it there certainly was not; although in other places a great want of employment did exist; however, it was the intention of his Majesty's Government, in the course of the present Session, to propose to Parliament two bills, one of which, on the subject of emigration, he expected would prove an advantageous measure, and would most probably give great relief. With regard to any plan for home colonization that was a matter of greater difficulty, and he could not undertake to say that Government had made up their minds on the subject.
The Earl of Malmesburywas happy something was likely to be done. He would recommend the repeal of an absurd regulation which limited to twenty acres the quantity of land a parish could rent for the employment of its poor. He recommended, too, the employment of such labourers as were out of work, at a regular and standard rate of wages, and he thought some such plan would remove part of the evil at present existing. As to emigration, that, in his opinion, would encounter insuperable difficulties in many parishes, although it might be useful in others.
Lord Suffieldconsidered this question most important—not inferior to the subject of Reform. Reform would be the means of effecting a great deal of good, but he was not so absurd as to suppose that Reform, though carried to the utmost extent, would at once relieve the country from all its difficulties. It had been said, that a superabundance of population did not exist in all parts of the country; but that was no reason, in his opinion, why means should not be taken to remedy the evil where it did exist. He did not believe, that the eastern part of the country, with which he was connected, was exempted from the evil; and with respect to Norfolk, he could confirm what had fallen from the noble Earl (Winchilsea). Being acquainted with these circumstances, he could assure the House that he would en-

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deavour to promote some measure of relief, were he not aware that Government intended to apply some other remedy besides emigration to the evil complained of. He had good reason to believe, that Government would institute inquiries, with a view to ascertain speedily to what extent it would be possible and expedient to employ the superabundant population at home. That belief made him passive on the subject, for he had every confidence that his Majesty's Government would, if possible, relieve the country from this great embarrassment.
The Marquis of Salisburysaid, that thinking it doubtful whether any measure for giving employment to the labouring classes would be brought in by Government, he should on Monday next move for the re-appointment of the Committee which sat last Session, to consider laws affecting the poor.
Viscount Melbournesaid, he felt great embarrassment in replying to the question which had been asked, whether it was the intention of Government to bring forward any measures for the alleviation of the distress of the poor classes, because if he said that Ministers had no measures for that object in contemplation, they might be accused of supineness and indifference to the wants of the poor; and if he replied that Government had some plan in view, he might excite hopes which would end in disappointment. The subject was one of great difficulty, of which no other proof need be given than the length of time during which it had been agitated, the number of reports which had been drawn up, and the difference of opinion which prevailed on the subject. Each person had his own nostrum, to which he obstinately adhered, regarding with inveterate hostility the nostrum of every one else. The House had already been informed by a noble friend of his, that a bill was to be introduced for the purpose of facilitating emigration; and he also promised to take the subject of home-colonization into consideration, without, however, expressing any opinion, favourable or unfavourable, on the matter. He could not say, that Government had any plan in view on which they placed such confidence as need make any other person, who had any measure to recommend, hesitate to do so.
The Lord Chancellorthought their Lordships must feel the inconvenience of a practice which had of late crept into
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that House, and which was not permitted in the other House of Parliament—that of entering into a debate when there was no question of any kind or sort before them. He conceived, that it would not lessen their Lordships' dignity, and would certainly be infinitely more convenient, if they departed from such a practice, one consequence of which was, that the closest reasoner could not stick to the question, because there was no question whereto to stick. Whenever their Lordships indulged in these irregular debates, they got into a conversation quite as rambling and desultory as a talk round a fireside, and not half so amusing. The question into which their Lordships had entered was an extremely important one, and though he deprecated continuing the subject in the present unprofitable manner, being desirous rather to have an opportunity of delivering his sentiments on every branch of the question when it came regularly before the House, he trusted that he should not be considered as deviating from the advice which he had just presumed to offer their Lordships, if he expressed his opinion, that some attempts ought to be made to relieve the evil which had been brought under the notice of the House by the noble Earl (Winchilsea), and the sooner the better. God knew whether any good effect would result from those attempts; but they had no right to despair. He always thought it time enough to say "I can't," when he had tried and failed. Whenever a man said "I can't" before he had tried, their Lordships might safely conclude that he meant "I won't." He was decidedly of opinion that the present Session, short and busy as it might be, should not be suffered to pass, without endeavouring to apply a remedy to the evil. That remedy must be of two kinds— namely, to give relief to the excess of population over the demand for labour, which existed in some parts of the country (many noble Lords, he knew, said that it existed in all parts of the country, but it was sufficient for him that it existed in some, and might exist in all if necessary precautions were not adopted), and to afford means, under due regulations, for emigration. The latter plan, he was aware, would only afford temporary relief, and must, of necessity, be an inadequate remedy for the evil; and unless their Lordships applied the axe to the root, they would have to resort to emigration

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again. But he was glad to have it in his power to assure the House, that the Government, and himself individually, had taken the subject into consideration, with a view to propose a measure, not indeed to operate contemporaneously with the regulations for emigration, but somewhat after them in order of time, to make a more general provision to prevent the recurrence of the sad necessity for the country's best sons leaving her shores. This was the kind of remedy which he should prefer; but it was necessary to begin by removing the surplus population, and it would be then for Government to endeavour to prevent its accumulation again. That object was to be obtained by a revision of the Poor-laws, notwithstanding the immense and fearful difficulties which such a task imposed. It was known that so early as the years 1816 and 1817 he had applied his mind to this subject. From that time downwards he had not given up the investigation; and, at length, he believed that he saw daylight amidst the darkness which had hitherto enveloped the subject. He should not say a word as to the plan which he had decided upon; but he had taken the advice of his Majesty's Government as a body upon it; and he hoped and trusted that not many months would pass before a measure on the subject would be introduced to their Lordships, so matured, as at least to deserve their favourable consideration. He would not promise that it would be brought forward this Session, but he hoped it would not be delayed later than the next. It was intended to be preparatory to another measure for the consolidation and simplification of the existing Acts on the subject of the Poor-laws. The noble and learned Lord concluded by stating, that he thought himself called upon to make these few observations, in justice to himself and to his colleagues, to show that they were not neglectful of the subject. Emigration he considered a most inadequate remedy, unless assisted by other measures.
Lord Stourtonsaid, my apology to the House for transgressing its rules, after the remark which has just fallen from the noble and learned Lord, is, that any observations I have to make, of however little weight they may be to-day, would be still more worthless to-morrow. They refer to the statements of extreme and appalling distress in Ireland, and the im-
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minent hazard we run, that without extensive and immediate relief, wide districts will be exposed to the alarming danger of perishing under the joint and dreadful vicissitudes of famine and pestilence. So rapid is the progress of events, that it is true to say, there is death in our deliberations! Qui cito dat, bis dat, that is my maxim, that is my justification this night for transgressing the forms and rules of the House by prolonging this irregular conversation. The Speech from the Throne has informed the House of the enforcement of the Quarantine Laws, and other wise and salutary commercial regulations. But let not one other precaution be omitted—namely, that of propitiating the great Disposer of all things, the great God of mercy and of justice, by deeds of mercy to our own fellow-creatures and subjects, and let us have to say, in imploring mercy for ourselves, in beseeching of infinite goodness to avert this pestilence (of cholera) from our shore, that as we have done our utmost to arrest the progress of famine and pestilence in Ireland, so do thou, in thy mercy, Lord, avert pestilence from us. My Lords, if the statements be correct, and I have no reasons for questioning their accuracy, scenes of horror are passing in the south-western parts of Ireland, compared with which the Grecian Daughter is no longer tragedy. And now permit me to add, that the time is come when those who, from principles of political economy, may be most indisposed to afford temporary and casual relief, will find their justification in the peculiar state of Ireland, as exposed and laid down in the reports of our legislative Committees. What do these re- ports say? Why, that Ireland is in a transition state. But trust not. my Lords, to my memory; allow me to read a copy of the report, in the very words of a Committee of the other House of Parliament. One of these tells us "that the present difficulties of the situation of Ireland rather appear to be incidental to a transition from one system to another," (and that transition, so alluded to, is stated to be, from the cottier system to consolidation of farms,) "than to any which can be considered as permanent." Therefore, my Lords, I have a right to say, watch with peculiar care this transition state, and give temporary and casual relief under accidental and passing circumstances. The most inflexible rigorist for non-interference may he

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be satisfied; and if, in future times, when a more permanent and better system has been established, and your remedial measures now in progress or in contemplation, viz., of bog-reclaiming, emigration, redemption of wastes, and other prospective remedies, have been in operation, your present relief, however extensive, cannot be appealed to as a precedent. You may shew the bogs which you have laid down in these your present channels of charity, and say, these were applicable only to that transition-state in which Ireland was then placed; and you have no right to the same interference in your more settled and improved condition. To Ireland, in its present state, may be applied the story of a person who had fallen down exhausted in the streets of Paris. Her complaint was the wolf in the stomach! Two medical men were in attendance upon her, of whom the one said, the malady was without a remedy; the other, that he knew of an infallible cure; but that the ingredients of which it must be composed were at Constantinople. The humane by-stander exclaimed—"Then, Gentlemen, as one of you conceives this dreadful disorder to be without a remedy, and your remedy (turning to the other Doctor') is to be fetched from Constantinople, permit me in the interim to prescribe for this poor creature. My advice is, that you will give without delay a little food to this person, in order to stop the gnawings of this devouring worm—of this wolf that is now preying upon the vitals of this unfortunate person." I say the same—I approve of the remedial measures in progress to afford a more permanent and effective cure for the complaints of Ireland. But all I ask—all I prescribe is, that you will administer without a moment's delay a little food, a little meal, some potatoes to stop, at least to assuage, the cravings of this devouring wolf in the stomach, that now is preying, through wide districts, upon the very vitals of a famished people.