Lords Sitting of 12 July 1831

MINUTES.
Bill. Frauds on Creditors went though a Committee.

LORD LIEUTENANTS (IRELAND) — "EXPLANATION BILL"
Viscount Melbournemoved, that the Report of the Amendments on the Lord Lieutenants of Counties (Ireland) Bill, be brought up.
The Earl of Shaftesburybrought up the Report.
Viscount Melbournemoved, that it be received.
The Marquis of Londonderrysaid, that in rising to offer himself to their Lordships' notice on this occasion, he laboured under some degree of embarrassment, more particularly as he was afraid, after what had passed yesterday, that the step he was about to take would not be strictly in accordance with the rules of their Lordships' House. He understood the noble and learned Lord opposite, however, to express a wish yesterday evening, and even to signify, that he was rather anxious that he (the Marquis of Londonderry) should take an opportunity of setting himself right with regard to what had occurred on a former evening; and he also understood it to be generally admitted, considering the particular circumstances under which, and the mode in which, he had then been attacked, that it would be only fair to give him an opportunity for making some explanation on the subject. If, nevertheless, he should be unfortunately interrupted in the course of the observations which he should now feel it his duty to submit to their Lordships, by the complaint that he was out of order, he could only say, that during the period that he had been a witness of their Lordships' proceedings, he had upon several occasions seen the same individuals address their Lordships three or four times upon the same question, and on the same night. He trusted, therefore, that if there was any intention to resort to the strict rule of

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order, it would not be harshly enforced in his instance, but that in future it would be strictly applied, not only towards him, but towards every other Member of that House. Their Lordships would recollect, that when, upon a former evening, he was personally attacked by three noble Lords, and when he ventured to make an explanation in reply to what had fallen from them, he was informed that it would be impossible for him to proceed in that explanation then, but that he would have an opportunity of making it on the bringing up of the Report on the Bill. He stated that circumstance to show, that it was not through any fault of his, if the explanation which he was now about to offer to their Lordships was not strictly in order. He begged to say also, that he meant to take that opportunity to again draw the attention of their Lordships to the subject of this particular Bill, which went to give the Crown more extended power and patronage in Ireland than any Bill that had ever been submitted to their consideration. With respect, in the first instance, to the observations which had been made by noble Lords opposite on a former evening, against him (the Marquis of Londonderry), he must say, when it was asserted that there was much extraneous and unnecessary matter in his speech, that there was much more in the reply of the noble Viscount, the Secretary of State. It was too much to be told by the noble Secretary, that noble Lords on that (the Ministerial side) might, as he did, employ such hard words as "gross ignorance" and "perverted understandings" towards individuals on the Opposition side of the House, and that when the individuals thus unjustly attacked should endeavour to repel such an attack, by restating what they had said, they should be arrested in their explanation, as he had been, and prevented from making it by a cry of "Order." He begged to tell noble Lords on the opposite side of the House, that if hard words were to be thus employed towards him, he would return them to those who used them four-fold. In the observations which he had made on a former evening on the present Bill, and which had so unaccountably provoked that attack which he now wished to answer, he had spoken hypothetically. He put certain cases on that occasion, and he said, that if this Bill should pass, and the nominations of those Lords Lieu-
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tenants should be made, it was very likely that the persons so appointed would all profess the same political tenets, and if that should come to pass with a Radical Chancellor on the Woolsack, he then asserted, that the Magistracy in that country might possibly in a short time be of such a description as he, as a loyal subject, and a Magistrate of Ireland, would be extremely sorry to witness. What then happened? Why, the noble and learned Lord opposite immediately rose, and proceeded to deliver himself as if he (the Marquis of Londonderry) had made a particular attack upon him, and indeed the noble Lord went on in such an animated and personal strain of argument, that it would almost seem, that the allusion, though not at all intended for the noble Lord, might perhaps apply in that quarter, thus verifying the ancient French proverb, "Ils' accuse qui trop s'excuse." If he had been allowed to give the explanation which he wished to give on that occasion, the noble Lord would have seen at once, that in making the allusion in question, he had not him at all in contemplation. He would have seen, that he did not allude to him as the future "Radical" Chancellor in Ireland, but to a much greater man than the noble Lord ever was or ever would be in that country. What he meant to say on that occasion was, that looking to the many changes which were in progress, he did not see why it was not very possible, that we might have, shortly, a Chancellor O'Connell in Ireland. He asserted, then, that he looked upon such a thing as extremely probable, and he did think that the noble Lord had no right to take such an hypothetical allusion to himself. He could assure the noble and learned Lord, that it was never once intended for him, and that at the time when he made it, another individual altogether was in his eye. So far with regard to that misunderstood allusion. He hoped he had now eased the mind of that noble and learned Lord of the idea of his having been accused of being a "Radical" Lord Chancellor. But the noble and learned Lord on that occasion attacked him (the Marquis of Londonderry), for supposing that his Majesty's Government would make such an improper use of the patronage which this Bill put into their hands as he had stated, and the noble Lord said, that it was unmanly, dishonourable, and base to suppose that the Lord Lieutenancies and Vice

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Lieutenancies would be given only to the friends and supporters of Ministers.
Lord Plunkett—I did not use the word "dishonourable."
The Marquis of Londonderry.—Well, the noble and learned Lord had characterized the supposition as a "base and unmanly supposition." Now he thought, that that was rather a hard expression. He could assure the noble Lord, that with every respect personally for the noble Lord, and for those noble Lords opposite with whom he acted, he (the Marquis of Londonderry, could not put such confidence in them, with respect to the purity of their appointments or nominations, as to suppose that they would be entirely devoid of that love of patronage which persons in power seldom failed to exercise when they could. He really thought, that of all persons the present Ministers were least entitled to credit for such extraordinary purity, and considering the short time during which they had been in power, they had made a greater distribution of the patronage which they necessarily possessed amongst their private friends and kinsfolk, than had ever been made by any former Ministers in so limited a period. That statement, he believed, would scarcely be disputed, and he held in his hand a list of fourteen or sixteen places which the noble Earl at the head of the Government had conferred upon his immediate friends and relatives. He would not go into a discussion of that matter then, as the noble Earl had never made a personal attack upon him, and as he entertained a private respect and regard for the noble Earl: he would only say, that there was the list of the places which the noble Earl had given to his friends and relatives. With regard, however, to the noble and learned Lord, he must say, that when that noble and learned Lord talked of the impossibility of Government giving away the offices which would be created by this Bill, through any but the purest motives, and in any but the purest manner, he (the Marquis of Londonderry) could not avoid referring to the quantity of patronage which had been engrossed by that noble and learned Lord's family and friends. He would briefly state the result of the information which he had received on that subject. First of all, there was the noble and learned Lord's son, the hon. and rev. Mr. Plunkett, holding a valuable living near Bray, and a Government patent-office in lieu of another living near Drogheda;
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next came the hon. J. Plunkett, Assistant Barrister for the county of Meath, and Crown Prosecutor, the emoluments of which amounted to about l,000 l. a-year. Then there was the hon. David Plunkett, who was Prothonotary of the Court of Common Pleas, and Registrar also of the said Court; next came the hon. Patrick Plunkett, who was Counsel to the Excise, and Crown Prosecutor for Leinster, and twin brother, as it were, to the gentleman holding the office of Crown prosecutor for Meath; there was also a brother-in-law with 4,000 l. a-year, and another Plunkett with a lucrative place, but he believed that gentleman was no relation of the Lord Chancellor's. There were several other Plunketts on the list, with which, however, he would not trouble their Lordships, as they might not be relatives of the Lord Chancellor, nor owe their appointments to him. Now, when he saw appointments of this kind, which, he dared say were very proper appointments, since the noble and learned Lord had praised his family very highly in that House, especially for their conduct during the late elections,—when, he said, he saw appointments of this kind, he could not have much faith in the purity of the dispensation of the patronage under this Bill. As the noble and learned Lord's family engrossed so many good things now, the noble and learned Lord might think they were deserving of some more as soon as there were more to be given away. The noble and learned Lord had afterwards stated, that he did not know whether he (the Marquis of Londonderry) was a Whig or a Tory. He was sorry to think, that any one could have any doubt upon this subject, —could have any doubt that he had never done any thing which should cause him to be suspected of being a Whig. With one exception, he had always supported Tory Governments. He lamented the necessity of that exception, but when he saw a Tory Government departing from those sound principles in which he had been brought up, he thought that it was his duly to oppose it. If the same Government were to come in again, and act in the same manner, especially with regard to foreign policy, as in the case of Greece, he should again oppose that Government. With the single exception, and he challenged the noble Lord to find another, of his unfortunate position with regard to a Tory Government,

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at the head of which had been a noble Duke, whom he must ever regard as the greatest man in the country, his whole political career had been such as ought to have left no doubt upon the mind of the noble and learned Lord, or on the mind of any man, whether he was a Whig or a Tory. If the noble Lord had any doubts, he might have immediately relieved them by consulting the noble Earl near him, the First Lord of the Treasury, or by consulting the noble Lord who held the office of Privy Seal; for those noble Lords he entertained the highest respect, and he was sure that they would have informed the noble Lord, that he never had, in the whole course of his political life, departed from the principles, the Tory principles, in which he had been brought up. And really, when he saw accusations like these coming from one who had been the intimate friend of Castlereagh, the extoller of Canning, and now the colleague of Grey— from one who had travelled to each of these Administrations, though the principles of them were "wide as the Poles asunder"—when he saw such an individual attacking him, and declaring that it was impossible to tell whether he was a Whig or a Tory, he did think it a little hard to remain silent under such an attack from such a quarter, and could not help giving utterance to his feelings. He hoped, that his humble political career had been straight-forward at least, but the noble and learned Lord's career put him in mind of all the ages—the golden age, and the silver age, and the iron age, though which age now ruled the world, he would, for fear of still further vexing the noble Lord, hardly venture to affirm. Next the noble and learned Lord had been pleased to state something about his (the Marquis of Londonderry) being custos rotulorum of Down and Derry; but he should have stated the particular circumstances under which he held these appointments. The fact was, that in the county of Londonderry, the greater part of the estates were held under the London Companies, and there were few or no great resident proprietors in the county, and it was therefore found very difficult to get persons qualified to fill high and important places. He had represented the county for twelve years, and though his family estates and his place of residence were in the neighbouring county of Down, yet he had been appointed custos rotulorum of Derry,
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at the recommendation of the then Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. His situation in the county of Down was very different: he had succeeded to it after an individual whom the noble and learned Lord had once respected,—an individual who had received honours from his Sovereign, and this part of those honours his Majesty had been graciously pleased to extend to him (the Marquis of Londonderry) as his successor. In holding this situation, of the highest possible honour, as Down was the first county in Ireland, he felt that it conferred on him very great honour; depriving him of it, which he knew would be one of the effects of this Bill, would be taking from him what he considered to be one of the greatest honours he was possessed of, particularly as it was bestowed on him at the decease of his lamented brother. He felt, that he was the highest individual in the county: he spent much of his time there, and the county had, on many occasions, and particularly lately, displayed much respect and attachment to his family. He had felt it his duty to state thus much, and to state it openly, for, humble as his services had been, they were at least zealous, and he did feel most acutely, when he found, that one effect of the present Bill would be to place a Lord-lieutenant of the county over his head. As to the Bill itself, he thought it neither more nor less than a Bill which gave to the Government the appointment of thirty-two new Lords-lieutenant, these new Lords having the power of appointing Vice-lieutenants to the amount of about eighty. If the Government chose to exercise the powers of the Bill, they would have patronage to this extent, and he was placed in such a situation, that though he-might be allowed to enjoy the title of Custos Rotulorum, his services might be entirely dispensed with, and he might be deprived of all the influence and honour which that office bestowed on him. He regretted, that the noble Duke (Wellington) when he suggested some amendments to the Bill, did not look a little closer at its probable effects, and if he had, he was sure the noble Duke would not have given it his support. The Bill would give the Ministers who carried its provisions into execution a great power over the elections in Ireland, which was not at all desirable for the independence of the gentlemen of that country. This being the case, he protested, and should to the last protest,

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against this Bill; for he saw no good that could be derived from it, but many evils. He hoped, that the Bill would be carefully investigated in the House of Commons, and that Ireland would not have to rue the day when such patronage was given to the executive Government in Ireland, to the destruction of loyal men; for loyal men he considered those to be who were attached to the principles which he believed to be the only conservative principles. He begged to ask, before he sat down, of the noble Secretary opposite, whether it was intended, after this Bill passed, that the Custos Rotulorum should be allowed to recommend to the magistracy, as by courtesy they had hitherto been allowed to do; or whether the new Lords-lieutenant alone would be charged with that important trust, or whether this power of recommendation would be divided between the Lords-lieutenant and the Custos Rotulorum? He had only now to entreat their Lordships' pardon for having trespassed upon them so long; but he felt that the Bill was so inimical to the welfare of Ireland, that he could not help once more publicly declaring his opinion of it. At the same time he felt so strongly what had been said of him on a former evening, that he could not avoid giving utterance to his feelings, and he must declare, that whenever he was so attacked he would most assuredly defend himself.
Lord Plunkettsaid, that as he had been so directly and particularly alluded to by the noble Marquis, he trusted he should be excused if he troubled their Lordships with a very few words. It was by no means his intention to prolong this very irregular discussion, especially as the greater part of the speech of the noble Marquis had related to matters personal between the noble Marquis and himself; and he must be allowed to say, that he did not think that cither he or the noble Marquis had any right to obtrude such matters on the public attention, much less to cause them to interrupt and to divert the course of public business. Let him, in the first place, set the noble Marquis right with regard to what he had said the other night, for a great portion of that it was quite clear had been misunderstood by the noble Marquis. He had never imputed any thing base or dishonourable to the noble Marquis. What he had said was this,—that when the noble Marquis
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charged the Government with a disposition to prostitute patronage to selfish and private purposes generally, or as respected that to be exercised under this Bill in particular, the noble Marquis charged the Government with being disposed to do that which was base and dishonourable. This he had said, and at the same time he had, in the most distinct terms, expressed his regret, that the noble Marquis should have imputed to his Majesty's Ministers a disposition to do that which he was convinced the noble Marquis would be ashamed to do himself if he happened to be in their situation. The noble Marquis had that evening, very much to his surprise he confessed, declared that he (the Marquis of Londonderry) had not alluded to him (Lord Plunkett) when he talked of a radical Lord Chancellor, but that he had alluded to another personage, who the noble Marquis was pleased to think might be Lord Chancellor at some future period. He willingly accepted the explanation of the noble Marquis, but he thought the House would see, that he had not been very rash in considering that the complimentary appellation of "radical Lord Chancellor" was intended for him, and not for any body else. For they were at that time talking of Irish appointments under a Bill about to be passed, and it was not unreasonable, therefore, that he should consider what the noble Lord said of an Irish Lord Chancellor as applying to him, and not to any future Lord Chancellor. Besides, a short time ago, when he had alluded to some very unpleasant charges that had been made against him in another place, and denied that there was the slightest foundation for those charges, the noble Marquis had said, that he thought that the person who made the charges must have had some ground for making them. Perhaps this circumstance had contributed towards his falling into an error, which the noble Marquis had now removed. He would say no more, therefore, on this part of the subject, he took the noble Marquis's explanation in good faith, and would leave the noble Marquis to settle the affair in the other quarter, and with the imaginary and prospective Lord Chancellor to whom the noble Marquis had referred. The noble Marquis had alluded to a noble relative of his, with whom he (Lord Plunkett) had lived on terms of intimacy and friendship, and of whom he had never

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spoken, either in public or in private, in other than terms of respect. From this allusion the noble Marquis had passed to his (Lord Plunkett's) public life, which the noble Marquis had very severely criticised. He had been in public life for a considerable number of years—between thirty and forty years—and he now called upon the noble Marquis, or upon any other person, to point out an instance in which he had departed from any one public principle which he had formerly professed. He would give the fullest scope to such an investigation. He would allow all that he had said, both in and out of Parliament, to be ransacked, and still he would challenge the noble Marquis, or any other person, to point out from what political principle, which he had once embraced, he had departed. Not that he should have thought that there was any thing disgraceful in such departure; for if he had seen good reason to abandon any principle which he had once professed, and had not abandoned it, he should have considered that he discredited himself. But what did the noble Marquis mean in finding fault with his having belonged to the Administrations of Lord Castlereagh and Mr. Canning? Did the noble Marquis see any thing inconsistent in that? He was at a loss to discover wherein it consisted; but if he had been inconsistent, he had been so in the company of so many illustrious men, both Peers and Commoners, that he could scarcely regret it. The noble Marquis had then complained, that he (Lord Plunkett) and his family possessed a very large share of patronage, but the noble Marquis had been very bountiful to him and his family in this particular, and had conferred upon him in his complaint a much larger share of patronage than they had ever had in their possession. In this part of his speech, too, the noble Marquis had been good enough to bestow upon him twins. Now, if that had been true, he should neither have regretted it nor thought it a subject of censure; but it was not true.
The Marquis of Londonderry.—I used the expression metaphorically.
Lord Plunkettcontinued.—Oh, then, the noble Marquis meant to deliver him of the twins; if that circumstance did not even originate in a mistake, but only in a metaphorical conception of the noble Marquis, it was scarcely worth talking about. With regard to what the noble
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Marquis had said about the Custos Rotulorum, the noble Marquis was in an error, both as to the law and as to the practice. The Custos Rotulorum, by the law, was not removable, and therefore would be untouched by this Bill. As to the patronage of the Custos Rotulorum, it was not intended to touch it; but here again the noble Marquis was in error, for the Custos Rotulorum had no right to recommend the Magistracy, though, by courtesy, that officer had been allowed to do so. If he, as Lord Chancellor, had acted upon the recommendation of the noble Marquis, he could assure the noble Marquis that he had not done so on the supposition that the noble Marquis had any right to recommend. The practice was very different in the two countries, for although the recommendation rested rather with the governors of counties than with the Custos Roturlorum, yet this was by courtesy, and not by right; and if a person were recommended to him, and he was sure, that that person was a desirable and respectable person for the Magistracy, he, as Lord Chancellor, should appoint that person, from whatever quarter he might be recommended. He did not know how this would be under the new Bill. How far the opinion of the Lord-lieutenant ought to be conclusive, was a point which they had no custom in Ireland to regulate; but he had no hesitation in saying, that if circumstances required it, he should pause before he admitted that the recommendation of the Lord-lieutenant ought to be conclusive. The noble Marquis had said, that the Bill had been introduced for the purpose of increasing the patronage of the Crown; and this charge was so extraordinary, that, he must entreat the House to consider what the patronage of the Crown now was. At present there were in many counties five, in others four, in others three, and in most counties, two Governors. This Bill would take from the Crown the power of making these appointments, and restrict the power to the appointment of one officer in each county. Again, on the appointment of the Lord-lieutenant, those governors of counties who were at once Governors and held the office of Custos Rotulorum would necessarily be removed. The consequence of this would be—he would not say the making enemies, but—it would leave four persons in the county not very well satisfied with an alteration which would enable

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the Crown to satisfy but one. The Government, therefore, it was clear, was losing, not gaining, patronage. He had merely to add one word as to the clause which had been introduced by his noble friend below him, respecting the Custos Rotulorum. The Constitution was different in Ireland and England. Originally it was regulated in both countries by the principles of the common law; the appointment was by the Lord Chancellor, and it was held for life. That arrangement was found to be inconvenient, and in this country it was changed. By the 37th Henry 8th, the appointment was transferred from the Chancellor to the Crown; it was to be made by a Sign Manual, and the Custos was only to hold the office until some other person should be appointed to it. In Ireland no alteration was made; the office still remained as originally constituted. What an absurd and incongruous thing would it then be, to make the Lord-lieutenant removable, when the Lord-lieutenancy was coupled with the office of Custos Rotulorum, the holder of which was not removable. The Custos Rotulorum had, therefore, been put on the same footing in Ireland as in England, but all existing rights would be preserved.
Lord Farnhamthought, that a great deal of undue importance had been given to the Bill, which was a very simple one, and one which had been long in agitation. It went only to transfer the duties which were now performed by the Governors and Deputy-governors of counties, to Lord-lieutenants; but it became of importance, as connected with other matters, one of which was, that of the appointment of the Colonels of Militia, which he (Lord Farnham) thought ought to rest only with the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. It was also extremely important that Government should have, at least, one responsible individual, with whom it could carry on local communications in each county, instead of being compelled, as at present, to obtain information by a circuitous and irregular course. The measure, as he said, had been long in contemplation, for the late Lord Liverpool, eight or nine years ago, did him the honour of asking his opinion on a similar bill, and he knew, that the establishment of a Lord-lieutenancy in Ireland had for a long time engaged the serious thoughts of that nobleman, whose attention was engaged, also, at the same
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time, with a project of withdrawing the Lord Lieutenant, and governing Ireland by county Lieutenants, as in Scotland. At that time he (Lord Farnham) had been in favour of the measure, but he now thought, that a more dangerous experiment could not be made than that of withdrawing this great Officer at the present moment. Unfortunately, the prophecies of returning peace and tranquillity to Ireland, in consequence of the great measure that had been recently passed, were not fulfilled. That country was not, he thought, in such a state at present, as would induce any noble Lord to recommend the withdrawal of an able and active chief Magistrate, and a great change in all the subordinate Magistrates of every county. Ireland was in such a situation as to require vigilant officers for the due administration of the law; and he should be extremely sorry if an office of such deep importance as that of the Lieutenants of counties should fall into inferior hands. He feared that, in times of great danger and peril, it might fall into local hands, and a very extensive power might thus be wielded by individuals whose private feelings and passions might sway and bias their conduct. Hereafter, when peace and tranquillity were restored, they might much improve, or even dispense with, the existing system; but he thought that they could not do so at the present moment, without great danger both to that country and to this. To the general principle of granting the power contemplated, he did not object. On that point he had already given his opinion. Any Administration that proceeded to exercise such a power must exercise it under the influence of public opinion; and if they showed any disposition to abuse that power, they might depend upon it that public opinion would not go along with them. In his mind, this Bill ought not to be opposed on any ground of principle; still, however, he had thought it necessary to enter into the collateral circumstances that were connected with a Bill of so much importance. He observed, that the appointment of Colonel of Militia was alone to be vested in the Lord-lieutenant of each county. Whether that was, or was not, an advisable regulation, he meant not to say. He did not introduce that point as a matter of objection to the Bill, but he noticed it because the law was different in England. He did not, however, see why the Irish Lord-

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lieutenant should not possess the same power which the law gave to the English Lord-lieutenant with respect to Militia appointments.
Viscount Melbournesaid, that he did not mean to enter into any discussion on the Bill then before their Lordships, because another stage would occur, when such a proceeding would be more convenient. Neither did he mean to follow the noble Marquis through the various topics which he had introduced in the course of the very disorderly discussion into which the noble Marquis had led their Lordships. Other noble Lords, when, in the heat of argument, they had said or done anything contrary to the orders of that House, generally took an opportunity of expressing their regret for the inadvertence; but the noble Marquis had almost told their Lordships, in terms, that if he were disorderly now, he would, under similar circumstances, be disorderly hereafter. He submitted, that his noble and learned friend had done nothing which called for these charges. But the noble Lord had not limited his disorder to a notice of a previous night's debate; he had gone back, and alluded to expressions which were said to have been used some time since, which was highly irregular. With respect to the questions which the noble Marquis had put to him, they had, he conceived, been most satisfactorily answered by his noble and learned friend. He now only rose to propose, that the clause of his noble friend, which went to assimilate the appointment of Custos Rotulorum in Ireland with the practice which prevailed in England, and another clause, providing for the absence of Lords-lieutenant, should be added to the Bill. In England, the Lord-lieutenant of a county had a right to appoint Vice-lieutenants, and it was proposed by this new clause, that where individuals holding the office of Lord-lieutenant were about to become absentees, by attending their parliamentary duties or otherwise, then, in such case, the Lord-lieutenant of Ireland should have the power to appoint a Vice-lieutenant to perform the duties of the office until the return of the absentee.
The clauses were read and agreed to. The Bill, as amended, to be printed.