Lords Sitting of 17 February 1831

MINUTES.
The Post Master General's Bill went through a Committee.
Petitions presented. For the Repeal of the Union (Ireland), by Lord KING, from Tullamore and Killenaule:— By the Earl of SHRKWSBURY, from Grange Gorman, and from St. Michael's and St. John's, Dublin. In favour of the Local Courts Bill, by Lord KING, from Collumpton. For a Revision of the Tithe System, and Reduction of Taxation, by the same noble Lord, from Aldington, from Easing, and Bolton by Rolland. For the Repeal of the Duty on Coals, by the Earl of SRAFTESBURY, from the Ship-owners of Newcastle: — By the Earl of RADNOR, from the Mayor and Burgesses of Cardigan. For Reform in Parliament, by Earl SPENCE, from Northampton and Wellingborough:— By the Earl of RADNOR, from Calne, and St. Pancras, Middlesex:— By the Earl of GLENOALI., from Navan. Against further Grants to the Kildare-street Society, by the Earl of SHREWSBURY, from Kilchrist.

THE NEW TAXES.
Lord Ellenborough Lord Ellenborough, I in moving for the Returns of which he had given notice, respecting some of the new Taxes, said, he had submitted his Motion to the inspection of the head of his Majesty's Government, and he understood that no opposition would be made to the production of the returns he wished to

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have laid on the Table. They embraced all the articles which were made the subject of the lute financial propositions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer—namely, Cotton, Timber, Wine, and some others; and he thought they would be found of some importance, for a proper understanding of the nature of the alterations proposed. With respect to these alterations, he wished to observe, that he understood it to he the intention of the Government to repeal the duty on printed calicoes, and to substitute for it, a duty of one penny per pound on cotton wool of all countries, without making any distinction between that received from the United States and that which was derived from English colonies. He might, perhaps, have addressed himself more at length to this part of the subject, and to the state of the trade in cotton generally, if he had not indulged a confident expectation that at no very distant period, the proposition of the Government on this point of taxation would follow the fate of the proposal for raising a tax on transfers, and be abandoned in compliance with the feeling of the country; for he believed he spoke according to the sense of all acquainted with such subjects when he said, that the duty on cotton was, like the duty on transfers, one which, from the peculiar circumstances connected with the article, and the nature of the trade, could not be collected. He was ready to admit that the duty on printed cottons was liable to many objections—that large sums were taken by it out of the pockets of the people, and that little reached the Treasury, and that it pressed heavily on the poor, and was not felt by the rich, ft should, however, be recollected, that but a very small portion of Use dress of either class was formed of printed calicoes, and as the price of cotton wool varied from 1l. 6d., which was about the price of the highest, to 4d., which was the price of the lowest, and as the clothes of the poor were generally made from the low-priced cotton, and those of the rich made from the higher priced, the duty still would press unequally; and the penny per pound be raised from the cotton which was the least able to bear the weight of such a tax. The rich, therefore, under the contemplated arrangement, would still be the gainers, and the poor still liable to an unequal pressure from the new duty. If the state of the national finances permitted
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the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give up the sum of 500,000 l. which he now received from the duty on printed calicoes, it would undoubtedly be politic and expedient to take it oft"; but if that could not be done without shifting the burthen somewhere else, it was the bounden duty of the Ministers to take care that they did not, by a duly on the raw material—in this manufacturing country a particularly objectionable one—add to, rather than diminish, the burthens and difficulties complained of. Another objection to this proposition for a tax on the raw material was, that it imposed the same amount of duty on the cotton wool of India as on that of the United States of America. It had been the policy of the Governments of this country of late years to encourage, by every means in their power, the trade with India —a policy founded in experience, and supported alike by reason and justice. Acting on this principle, the Government made a distinction between the products of that country and those of other countries on various occasions, and while they raised the duties on the silk and sugar of other places, they preserved a proportion in favour of India. The duty paid by the cotton wool of India, which was only Ad. a hundred weight, while other cottons paid six per cent, would he raised by the proposed alteration full twenty-three per cent. But what was the course to be pursued with reference to the cottons of the United States? Cotton from New Orleans at present pays a duty of six percent: that duty, by the new tax, would be raised only nineteen and a half per cent. Sea Island cotton, which pays the same duty of six per cent, would only be raised by the change eleven per cent. And what would be the result of this, with reference to the cottons of India? Why that the poor cottons of our colonies would have to pay, on the whole, 100 per cent more duty than the very fine cottons of the United States. He would ask, whether their Lordships could say, that his Majesty's Government were, by this tax, preserving that policy which was recognized as just and proper towards the colonies? What, too, would be the effect of the arrangement on the cultivation of cotton in the colonies? For the next few months, cotton would continue to arrive in this country, under the opinion that it was to pay the old duty; but when those who bought cotton-wool at Bombay at 4d. a pound,

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and sold it here at 4½d. found they had to pay a duty of twenty-five per cent on its value instead of that which they calculated on paying, they would not only lose their profit, but their freight and charges, and ten per cent into the bargain on the capital embarked in the speculation. When he considered these, and similar difficulties, which must be well known to a noble Marquis (Lansdown) who was President of the Committee on the Affairs of India, which sat last year, he really thought it would be impossible for the Ministers to persist in their original propositions. He felt it right, while he was on this subject, to add, that the cotton imported from India in the year 1825 and 1826, and as late as the returns had been made out, amounted to one-eighth of the whole. It was necessary to understand, that the merchants connected with the trade of India laboured under greater difficulties than any others in making profitable returns to this country. Three millions were sent home every year in returns, on account of the territorial possessions of the East-India Company, independent of any thing which was required by the private trader; and their Lordships would therefore see at once the immense disadvantages under which the merchant, who received returns from India, laboured, being subjected to the competition of three millions' worth of commodities, which must, cost what they might, or at whatever risk or loss, be annually returned to this country. This competition was very injurious to private trade, and placed serious obstacles in the way of that trade. The noble Lord concluded by moving for Returns of the real and official value of all Colton wool imported into this country from foreign countries, and from British colonies, for the last ten years, with the rate and amount of the duties paid in each year.
Earl Greyhad, as the noble Baron commenced by observing, no objection to the Motion, but he thought the noble Lord had adopted a very unusual course in commenting at so much length on a system of duties which was not officially made known to their Lordships, and which had not even been embodied in Resolutions presented to the other House, so that the noble Baron might have become acquainted with their bearing from the Votes of that House, which were daily laid on their Lordships' Table. The noble Baron could
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not have known any thing of the taxes on which he commented, save from the reports of the Debates elsewhere, and he really thought that the observations of the noble Baron had been, in that respect, somewhat irregular. The tax on printed calicoes was liable to all the objections, as the noble Baron admitted, which any tax could well be liable to, and it was, therefore, the desire of the Government, to replace it by some tax which would fall less heavily on the poorer classes, and be more beneficially productive to the revenue. For this purpose, the Government had determined to lay a duty on cotton itself, and all he could say at present was, that if, on inquiry and examination, that tax itself, or the mode of raising it, should be found exposed to the objections stated by the noble Baron, that there would be no indisposition to modify or alter it, so as to give general satisfaction. It was impossible for him at that time, and without any previous notice, to follow the noble Baron through all the statements and figures he had laid before the House, but he would say, he acknowledged the propriety of the principle insisted on by the noble Baron with respect to India, and the policy of favouring the commodities of that country in preference to those of others, and he would repeat that if it could be proved that the new scale of duties injured India to the extent staled by the noble Baron, he should be ready to adopt a different course. More than this he was not called on, with his present information, to say. He thought it would have been better if the noble Baron had refrained from commenting on the duties until their Lordships were in possession of some better information on the subject, and he would sit down by declaring, that it would be the earnest endeavour of the Government to adopt the least injurious principle of taxation, and to remove every objection.
Lord Ellenboroughhad every disposition to respect the noble Earl, and to pay attention to his suggestions and advice; but he was, at the same time, at liberty, as a Member of Parliament, to select what subject seemed to him most fit for comment or observation, and he could not see that he had, in the present case, been guilty of any irregularity. The noble Earl had, however, with the candour, and honour, and sense of right which he hoped would always mark his character, dis-

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tinctly intimated, that if the tax on cotton was open to the objection he had stated, he would abandon it, at least as far as respected India; and he referred the noble Earl and the noble Marquis near him (Lansdown) to the report of the Lords' Committee on the Affairs of India, in which he would find every fact he had mentioned, stated in the evidence.
Returns Ordered.

TIMBER TRADE.
Lord Ellenboroughasked, whether it would be convenient to the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack, that he should then proceed with his Motion respecting the Duties on Timber.
The Lord Chancellorwas sorry that any judicial arrangements of his should interfere with his noble friend in any Motion he might have to bring forward, nor should he allow them to do so; but he had on that evening to meet the Judges, to consult with them on a case on which it was important that they should be consulted; and as they were about to set out on their circuits, it was desirable that his meeting with them should not be delayed. If, therefore, his noble friend would defer his Motion till to-morrow, it would be a convenience to him.
The Marquis of Lansdown The Marquis of Lansdown, in reference to what had fallen from the noble Lord (Ellenborough) on the subject of the exports from India, assured him that he was one who thought the trade should be protected, for the importance of the interests connected with that trade could not be overlooked.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, he could not concur with the noble Earl (Grey) that it would be desirable that their Lordships should wait in considering a question of the nature of that introduced by his noble friend (Lord Ellenborough) until Resolutions on the subject had been submitted in another place. No Resolutions had, it was true, yet been submitted, but it was true that a great financial statement had been made—in fact, the. Budget of the year had been brought forward— in that other place, before any resolutions were submitted, and before the Supplies had been voted, or before even the. Estimates for the year had been known in that place. It was no wonder, then, that his noble friend should desire information on the subject to which he referred, without waiting for the Resolutions to be submitted
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elsewhere. He did not object that a statement of the kind should have been made, but he thought that the Supplies should have been voted before the Ways and Means were considered. The public ought to have the whole case before them; but at present all they knew was, that an alteration was to take place in some taxes, that others were to be taken off, and part of the plan so put forth had been already abandoned.
Earl Greywished to know from the noble Lord (Ellenborough) whether, in introducing the subject of the timber duties, it was his intention to enter upon the general subject of our trade, or the whole policy of the plans of Government on that subject; because, if he did, he should hope the noble Lord would not do so in the absence of his noble friend, the Secretary for the Colonies, who was prevented from being in his place by indisposition. Perhaps, therefore, if his noble friend should not be able to attend to-morrow, the noble Lord would not object to put off his Motion till Monday.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, that he did not object to the principle of the timber duties, but to the manner in which the modification was to take place; and in noticing the subject, it was not his intention to enter into other questions of trade; but under any circumstances, he would rather not bring forward his Motion in the absence of the noble Viscount, the Secretary for the Colonies. He would therefore defer it to any day when it might be convenient to the noble Viscount to attend.