Lords Sitting of 14 February 1831

MINUTES.
Viscount GODERICH presented a Bill to explain and amend the Law relating to holding Land in Canada.
Petitions presented. In favour of Parliamentary Reform, by the Earl of ROSEBERY, from Queensferry:—By Lord DACRE, from Royston:—By the Earl of RADNOR, from Halifax, Worcester, and the Cabinet-makers and Joiners of Manchester: — By the Earl of MANSFIELD, from Dunkeld:—By the Earl of DARNLEY, from Ballymena. By the Marquis CAMDEN, from Igtham, Kent, for a Reduction of Taxation. By the Earl of CARLISLE, from Hull, against the Truck System. By Lord BERESFORD, from Berwick-upon-Tweed, to be exempted from the Act which forbids Scotch Bank-notes to be circulated in England. For the revision of the Tythe System, by the Karl of RADNOR, from Farmers frequenting Uxbridge, Windsor, and Maidenhead markets. For the Repeal of the Duty on Slates, by Lord KENYON, from the Land-owners of Merionethshire. For the Repeal of the Duty on Coals, by the Earl of WINCHILSEA, from Fowey:—By the Earl of CARNARVON, from Watchett. By the Earl of DARNLEY, from Navan, for assistance to enlarge the Catholic Chapel.

SALARIES OF MINISTERS.
A Message was brought up from the Commons, requesting the House of Lords to grant permission to the Lord Chancellor to attend
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as a witness, and give evidence, before the Committee appointed to inquire respecting the Emoluments of the High Officers of the State.
The Lord Chancellorhoped their Lordships would accede to the request of the House of Commons, and stated, that as far as he was personally concerned, he should throw no impediment in its way. He considered that his being permitted to attend the Committee of the House of Commons, would greatly further those salutary expedients and necessary reforms in the office of the Lord Chancellor, which he would submit to their Lordships tomorrow week.
On the motion of the Earl of Shaftesbury, leave was given to the Lord Chancellor to attend the Committee tomorrow, and the Commons were so informed.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
The Duke of Norfolkpresented a Petition from the town of Sheffield, praying for Parliamentary Reform. The noble Duke said, the petition was entitled to attention from their Lordships, as it came from a very extensive and populous place. The town of Sheffield contained no less than 80,000 inhabitants, and was distinguished by the extent of its trade and manufactures, and by the many valuable local institutions which it possessed. It was a place which ought no longer to be left unrepresented, especially considering that many towns of much less importance enjoyed the elective franchise.—Petition laid on the Table.

TITHES.
Lord Suffieldpresented a Petition in favour of an alteration in the Tithe-laws. The petitioners complained of the injustice of taking tithes in kind, but professed that they were staunch supporters of the Church of England, and they wished that tithes should be commuted for a money-rent. The noble Lord thought, that the best mode of regulating tithe would be, by making it depend on the rental. He could but express his regret at the delusion and imposition, he might call it, which existed on the subject of tithes; for it was nothing less than an imposition, to tell the farmers that they would be benefited to the full extension of the tithes if they were abolished. He had been surprised at some of the observations which, on former occasions had been made by some noble Lords against his noble friend near him (Lord King), whose aim was, as he professed,

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only to improve the Church. But giving his noble friend credit for being influenced only by a desire to correct the abuses and promote the interests of the Church, still he would ask him whether, in the present excited times, when so much mischief might result from his motives being mistaken, he had better not, at present, abstain from such a course of proceeding. In that House his remarks could not be mistaken, but out of doors they might, and might produce dissatisfaction and discontent.

TAX ON THE TRANSFER OF FUNDED PROPERTY.
The Duke of Buckinghamsaid, that he had observed by the Votes of the House of Commons, that a sum had been moved for in part of the Supplies of the year, and he learned from common rumour, that one of the means by which it was intended to raise the Supply was by imposing a duty on the transfer of stock and landed property. He hoped, however, that his Majesty's Ministers had ceased to contemplate that mode of raising money; but if not, he took the present opportunity of giving notice, that considering as he did that measure to be a breach of faith with the public creditor, and considering such a measure most mischievous to the country at all times, but more especially in its present situation, he should think it his duty to call their Lordships' attention to the bill when introduced into that House, in the hope of inducing their Lordships to express an opinion of condemnation on a measure which he was sorry to feel obliged to consider of a revolutionary character.
Earl Greysaid, it was quite clear, and did not need to be announced by the noble Duke, that when a bill, whether having reference to the subject to which the noble Duke had alluded, or to any other, was brought before their Lordships for discussion, it was necessary for their Lordships' attention to be drawn to it. But before he made any reply to the noble Duke, which reply might, perhaps, prevent his promised interposition in the matter, he must declare, that he could not stand in that House, and hear it stated by the noble Duke, or any other person, that the measure to which he had alluded was of a revolutionary character, or deserved to be described as a breach of the public faith. If he had thought that that measure could be described as justly liable to either of those imputations, he never should have con-
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curred in proposing it to Parliament. But it was because he thought that, strictly speaking, it could not be construed into a breach of faith,—because he considered it, far from possessing a revolutionary character, to be, in conjunction with other measures with which it was connected, the best calculated to promote the welfare of the country, give new activity to industry, and assist all those interests, on the prosperity of which depended peace and content, and that spirit of order and satisfaction the most contrary to any thing of a revolutionary nature,—it was because he contemplated in that view the measure to which the noble Duke had alluded, that he consented to its being proposed to Parliament. In looking at the situation of the country,—when he found how necessary it was to relieve the industrious classes of the community from some of those taxes which pressed most heavily on them, and when he found it was not possible for him, owing to the circumstances of the time, and of the country, to propose any considerable reduction in the great establishments of the country,— the public safety, on the contrary, requiring considerable additions to those establishments, he did seek after some means of removing from the industrious portion of the country that pressure which, in the present state of depression of the labouring classes, threatened to cripple the energies and resources of the country. Therefore, with the most anxious wish to take off taxes of that description, he sought the means of doing so by imposing others (for, without a commutation, DO such relief could be given)which he thought would operate with comparatively little pressure on the public resources, and not have the effect of endangering the interests of the country. With that view, he confessed that he did concur in the proposal for levying a tax on the transfer of funded property, being convinced that it was just in policy; nor did it now appear to him either iniquitous or unjust. In looking to its operation, he found that it would affect a species of property which, amidst the general distress that had assailed every oilier interest—the commercial, agricultural, and manufacturing—not only had not suffered depression, but which, from those very circumstances, had increased infinitely in value. It did, then, appear a fair, just, and equitable proposition to him to make the persons possessing that property in some degree

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contribute to the taxes which were necessary for the State, and relieve their fellow-subjects who were labouring under such severe pressure. He did not think that Government, in proposing the measure, had been guilty of any breach of faith, but had, as he thought, only consulted the well-understood interest of those persons themselves, which must depend on the general prosperity of the country. The Government, in proposing to relieve the industrious classes from the pressure which they suffered, believed at the same time that they were promoting the interest of the fundholders themselves; for they would be benefited in a much greater proportion than they would suffer from the demand made upon them, by the reduction of taxation which Government had thought it necessary to propose. Yet this measure had been characterized by the noble Duke as a breach of faith. He (Earl Grey) did not mean to say that it was right to justify one breach of faith by a preceding breach of faith; but when a breach of faith was spoken of, could their Lordships omit to look back to a tax which had been imposed on this species of property equally against the positive words of the Act of Parliament—he alluded to the Property-tax,—and avoid perceiving, that when the necessities of the Government required it, the country had thought right to call upon the fundholders for a proportional contribution to the necessities of the State? One of the great inducements for Government to propose this measure was, because they heard the general cry for the imposition of a property-tax, to which, in time of peace, he had great objection. The Government, therefore, thought it desirable to lay a tax on the transfer of funded property, which could only in a slight degree affect the general interest of the country; and he was surprised to find it complained of by those very persons who would impose on the country a general property-tax, which, by operating on parts of the community in great distress, would be most impolitic, and by being imposed on funds, would tend to drive capital out of the country more than any other. It was to save the country from a tax of this nature that he, in common with his colleagues, particularly the noble Lord who explained the proposition of Government to the other House of Parliament, did intend, without any breach of faith, and contemplating great advantage to the pub-
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lic interests, to impose a tax on the transfer of funded property. However, he was ready to admit that there might be some difficulty in the adoption of a measure which did not admit of being submitted to the judgment of persons not being members of the Government; for, from the nature of the tax proposed, it was impossible, without divulging it in such a manner as to produce inconvenient results, to consult many persons on the subject. But his noble friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), before he proposed the tax, took the opinion of a gentleman whom the noble Duke would, perhaps, admit to be the best authority respecting it,—he meant the Governor of the Bank, who thought the tax might be imposed and collected without difficulty. Yet, though the Government had that gentleman's opinion that the tax might be collected without difficulty, looking to the public feeling on the subject, his noble friend had already given notice in the other House of the intention of his Majesty's Government to withdraw the proposition. There would, therefore, be no such tax; and no such bill, as the noble Duke so eagerly expected would be introduced into their Lordships House; nor would the noble Duke have an opportunity of calling the attention of their Lordships to it. It grieved him, however, to state, that in renouncing the measure which Government contemplated as a means of lightening the burthens of the country, and thus giving a spring to the energies of the people, the means of Government to effect that good were diminished by being deprived of this resource, and the Government was compelled to give up proposing the reduction of some other taxes, which, unless they could be supplied by impositions as unobjectionable as he conceived the proposed lax to be, could not be removed in the present state of the finances. He was sorry that Government felt it necessary to withdraw that tax, because he believed in his conscience, if the financial measures which his noble friend proposed had been suffered to go on without interruption, there was a prospect of such an increase and activity in the commerce and industry of the country as would have relieved the existing distress; and Government would have had the satisfaction of coming down to Parliament next year to propose the reduction of some other taxes, without being under the ne-

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cessity of imposing new taxes in lieu of them. He was grieved that the power to do this was taken away; and he grieved for the disappointment which they must have sustained who had been led to entertain expectations of the reduction of some of those taxes which Government intended to remove. But though Government found itself deprived of the resources which it thought calculated to effect the object in view, yet it would endeavour to attain that object by all other means in its power, limited and crippled as, he was sorry to say, the Government would be in its means of reducing the taxation which pressed on the industry of the country. He, however, would not have the House indulge in any irrational hopes on the subject. "Amidst all the difficulties which surround us," said the noble Earl, in conclusion, "we have always exerted ourselves to the best of our power, and our endeavours have so far been attended with satisfactory results; and I do hope that we shall be still enabled to persevere in them, so long as the confidence of Parliament shall be extended to us, and our measures shall be satisfactory and useful. I have nothing further to say at present, except that if the noble Duke, on this or any other subject, is disposed to attack the conduct of his Majesty's Government, I shall be ready to meet him on any proposition he pleases to bring forward; but if the noble Duke looks forward to the proposition of the tax on transfers as giving him a good opportunity to attack the Government, I inform the noble Duke that it will not be afforded him, for the proposition is withdrawn."
The Marquis of Londonderrythought the noble Earl was incapable of imposing any thing like a revolutionary tax. The object of the Government was only to make the fundholder bear his just proportion of the public burthens. He had looked generally at the features of the Budget, and he thought that Government had displayed an anxious desire to relieve the poorer classes, and to transfer the burthens on those who were best able to bear them. The tax on transfers was far from being a revolutionary tax; it was imposed to supply the means of maintaining the country in its present condition.
The Duke of Buckinghamcongratulated their Lordships on the withdrawal of that part of the ministerial plan of finance, which he considered so very ob-
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jectionable in many points. The noble Earl had quoted the opinion of the Governor of the Bank of England, but he (the Duke of Buckingham) had it from the highest authority, that the opinion of that gentleman was only his individual opinion, and was not meant to convey the opinion of the body to which he belonged.
Earl Greysaid, he had not described it in any manner as the opinion of the whole body. He had only mentioned that it was the opinion of the Governor that the tax could be collected without difficulty.
The Earl of Winchilseasaid, that so far was he from agreeing in the opinion that no tax should be laid on the fundholders, that he regretted extremely that any difficulty should have presented itself to the collection of that proposed by his Majesty's Ministers. He was one of those who held that the fundholder was not taxed in proportion to the burthens which fell upon other portions of the community; and so far was he from thinking that the imposition of a tax on funded property would involve a breach of faith with the public creditor, that he thought that it was virtually, under the present circumstances of the country, a breach of faith with the public debtor—that was, with the great mass of the community—that the fund-holder should remain untaxed. He would ask their Lordships on what principle of justice it was, that the landowner should have to bear the pressure of so many burthens, while the person who had.50,000 l. or even 100,000 l. a-year in the funds was exempted from any such contributions? In what way did the fundholder contribute to the maintenance of the poor? In what way did he contribute to the repairs of public roads, and other matters involving heavy disbursements, which were paid by the holders of landed property? He repeated, that, under these circumstances, the breach of faith was with the public debtor, who was in the present state of the currency called upon to pay 20 s. for every 13 s. which were borrowed in his name. He, then, for one, would never assent to the doctrine, that the taxing of the fundholder would be a violation of faith with the public creditor. He contended, that the fundholder, like every other member of the community, should bear his share of those burthens which the necessities of the State might require. He owned that he heard with regret from the noble Earl (Grey) that he was averse to

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the introduction of a property-tax, which in his (the Earl of Winchilsea's) opinion, was the most just and equitable that could be devised. He thought, that if, in addition to the taxes proposed to be taken off, other taxes that pressed on the land were also remitted, and a reasonable property-tax imposed instead, the public would be greatly benefited by the change. At the same time he admitted that the taxes now to be taken off would be found to afford a great relief to the country. All he regretted was, that the principle of reduction in that way had not gone further, and a tax which would fall equally on those able to bear it had not been substituted for the taxes that now ruined the productive power of the country. He would not trespass further on the attention of their Lordships, but after what had fallen from the noble Duke, he could not remain silent on the subject.
Lord Farnhamsaid, that there was a great difference between a tax on the transfer of funded property, and the produce of that property, because it was well known that many persons had often occasion to transfer that kind of property from one to the other; but a tax on the produce of funded property was a different thing. So far was he from objecting to a tax on property, which should fall equally on funded and landed property, that he thought such a tax would be greatly preferable to the existing mode of taxation. He would take away all indirect taxation, including the land-tax, and substitute a property-tax; and, though he did not know how it might be received, he would charge the maintenance of the poor on the fund arising out of that tax; for he was firmly of opinion, that their Lordships never would give a proper stimulus to improve landed property until they relieved it from the great burthens to which it was almost exclusively subject. Their Lordships knew not how soon they might have to draw upon all their resources in a struggle for the safety of the State. All Europe was now in arms. England was, very prudently, at present lying upon her oars, but there was no saying how soon she might be called upon to make a great effort for her own safety; and in order to bring the resources she really possessed to bear, there ought to be a different system of finance from that which had been adopted for a long time back.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, he did not
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feel it necessary to enter upon the question concerning the principle of a property-tax in the presence of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, whom he had heard over and over again, in another place, exert his powerful eloquence against the principle of a property-tax in time of peace; and of course the noble and learned Lord still continued of the same opinion on that important question. He rose, however, not for that purpose, but to put a question to the noble Marquis (Lansdown) opposite, on a subject also of considerable importance. The noble Marquis was Chairman of their Lordships' Committee on Trade, of which he (Lord Ellenborough) was also a member; and he wished to know from him, what were the intentions of Government as to the duty on timber. He hoped the noble Marquis would have no objection to give their Lordships some information on a subject of such importance to the country.
The Marquis of Lansdownesaid, as no resolutions on the subject had yet been introduced into the other House, he trusted their Lordships would see the propriety of his not entering upon the subject at pre- sent. When those resolutions had been submitted, he would be ready on the pro- per occasion to enter fully into the subject before their Lordships.
Lord Ellenboroughwas aware that no resolution had yet been submitted to the other House on this subject, and he thought it was an oversight that it had not; but the very mention of a subject of such importance made the public interested therein naturally very anxious to know the intentions of Government respecting it; and on that ground it was, that he asked the noble Marquis to state what those intentions were.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, that he had no wish, and it would not become him, to usurp the functions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in that House. At the proper time he should be ready to give the noble Lord and the House full information as to the intentions of Government on the subject.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he should not have felt it necessary to trespass on the attention of their Lordships, in prolonging a conversation on this subject, but for the good-natured, though rather sarcastic, allusion, made by his noble friend (Lord Ellenborough) as to the opinions which he had held on the subject of

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a property-tax. Certainly, he had no wish at that moment to renew a debate in which he admitted he had taken a very prominent part. Such a renewal, at the present moment, could not prove very agreeable to their Lordships, since, as most of them were aware, it was one which had lasted eight weeks with little interruption, beginning at half-past four each day, and lasting till midnight, and often till half-past three in the morning. In that debate he had, it was true, taken a very prominent, and, as it proved, a very successful part. He had objected, and he still should continue to object — unless such particular circumstances, which he did not see at all probable, should show a necessity to the contrary—to the principle of a property-tax in a time of peace. The tax had arisen in that which was the parent of all bad taxes—hateful war; and unless a similar cause should arise—or, as he had said, unless such circumstances should occur as would justify him in changing his opinion, he should still continue to hold the same opinion as he had at the period to which his noble friend had alluded. But be it remembered at the same time, with reference to his opinions at that period, that they referred chiefly to that most hateful of all systems of taxation, a tax on income, a tax which was opposed to all good and sound principles of finance. His great objections at that time were to an income-tax, which that tax was; but he would admit that even a property-tax, distinct from one on income, he should have also opposed at that time, under the then circumstances of the country. If circumstances did call for a property-tax at present, the objections he had made to an income-tax would not apply to it; but he must concur with his noble friend (Earl Grey) that such circumstances were not now in existence. He should have thought this a sufficient notice of what had fallen from his noble friend (Lord Ellenborough) near him, but for what fell from the noble Lord (Farnham) on the cross-bench, who always put forth his opinions on any question with great candour and good sense. As to the question, then, whether a tax on funded property would be a breach of faith with the public creditor, he did not mean to oppose the position that it would not. Indeed, the tax proposed by his noble friend in another place would have affected the holders of but a comparatively small por-
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tion of funded property. 600,000,000 l. out of the 800,000,000 l. was so vested, that there would be little probability of its transfer. Indeed, the manner in which the announcement of the plan was received in the City, where it had not produced a reduction of one-twentieth per cent, showed that it was not looked upon, in the most sensitive quarter, as any violation of faith with the public creditor. He could not see how the noble Duke could maintain that it was a violation of faith, unless he were also prepared to contend, that his kinsman, Mr. Pitt, had been guilty of such a violation in the imposition of a tax on funded as well as landed property, after the passing of an Act the most stringent that legislative ingenuity could devise, for the protection of funded property; yet after this Act, Mr. Pitt and his friends appeared to have no idea that they were committing any violation of faith with the public creditor, in the imposition of the tax on public funds as well as on other property. He admitted that funded property was liable, and that landed property was now pressed down with many burthens from which other property was free. He felt this statement necessary, lest by his silence it should for an instant be supposed that he was a party to any measure which was a violation of faith with the public creditor. The plan of his noble friend involved no such violation. He was not now called upon to pronounce any opinion as to whether funded property should be taxed equally with land, as there was no intention of putting a tax on either; but he would beg their Lordships to bear in mind, that when income from funded property was taxed ten percent, in common with income from land, and even with income arising from trade, the circumstances of the country, with respect to the fundholder, were different from the present circumstances. At that time the fundholder had no opportunity of transferring his property elsewhere. France was closed upon him as a secure place of investment. At present, the security of the French funds was such as to afford confidence to every reasonable man in the stability of its government; and at present, the English fundholder could find no difficulty in the transfer. He said this in the presence of a large portion of the landed interest—of men with much landed, and little funded property; and he would beg of their

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Lordships to consider the different circumstances of the fundholder now, from what they were at the time of the property or income-tax. At present, the communication between London and Paris was as open, and nearer, than the communication between London and the north. The three per cents at Paris were at sixty. In London, it would require eighty to produce the same interest. Here, then, of itself, was a temptation to invest in the French funds. The trading-stock-holder was a man of no country— he was here to-day, and gone to-morrow, whithersoever his capital could be most advantageously invested. If, then, in addition to the eighty, you take from him seven, or eight, or ten per cent, see what an additional inducement would be given to him to transfer his property. He did not urge this as an all-sufficient reason against the imposition of a tax on the fundholder, equally with the landed proprietor; but he thought it was a reason why they should pause before they consented to the imposition of any such tax. He regretted, nevertheless, that the proposed plan was given up, because it would involve the continuance of two taxes from which it was intended to relieve the public. Before he concluded his remarks on this subject, he must add, that he took his full share of any blame which might attach to the failure of the plan proposed by his noble friend in the difficulty of enforcing it. If he were asked why he had not seen farther into this millstone than others, he would say, that he was tied up by motives of delicacy from putting a few questions to some practical Conveyancer, which, if he had done, might have afforded the information, that the plan, if persevered in, might have led to making stock the object of deeds of trust, leading possibly to litigation, which would have found full employment for—not one, but two or three Chancellors. He repeated his regret that the change of the plan would perhaps render it necessary to continue taxes during, at least, the present Session, which it was hoped Government would be enabled to reduce. These would, for the present, be left to that which was the best source of a remission of taxes— the growing prosperity of the country. As to those taxes which it was still in the power of Government to remit, he thought those on coals and candles, and newspaper-stamps and advertisements — he
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thought these, and all other parts of his noble friend's plan, as judicious and as well considered as any plan of finance which he had ever heard laid before Parliament, and he was sure that their Lordships, as well as other portions of the community, would each, and all, derive great advantage from the development of those plans.
Lord Wynfordwished to know from the noble Earl (Grey), whether that part of the plan which related to the tax on transfers of landed property was to be given up as well as that on the transfer of funded property.
Earl Grey.—The whole of that part of the plan would be given up.

COMMERCIAL RELATIONS WITH PORTUGAL.
Viscount Strangfordgave notice, that on Friday he would move a Resolution relating to the extraordinary anomaly of our commercial relations with Portugal. He should have been glad to have deferred it to a more distant day, and wait for some information to be afforded by Government; but circumstances which occurred in another place had rendered it urgent and important that the information for which he sought should not be delayed. He would only observe now, that the Resolution which he should move would have no reference to politics, or to the vexata questio of the Regency, or right to the throne of Portugal. It would refer solely to our commercial relations with that country.
Earl Greyasked the noble Viscount to state the particular object of his Motion.
Viscount Strangfordsaid, he should move for a paper, the production of which would set at rest for ever the question of our commercial relations with Portugal. His object would be to shew, whether our commercial relations with that country, arising out of treaties, were considered to be still in existence, or suspended; and, if suspended, whether that suspension was according to any articles in any of those treaties.

RESIDENCE OF THE CLERGY.
Lord Kingrose to move their Lordships for a Return of the number of Resident and Nonresident Clergy in the several Benefices of England and Wales, distinguishing each; and also distinguishing those non-resident who held their Livings by Church, from those who held by Lay, patronage. This was similar to motions which had been

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made and agreed to heretofore. On examining the books in the library, he found the last return of the kind was in 1813. He should therefore move to have the returns dated from the last returns on the subject. The great evil of non-residence arose from pluralities; and the defence was, that some of the livings were so poor as not to be sufficient, singly, for the support of a clergyman. Now this argument was good if it applied only to small livings, but it was no defence for the rich pluralists, who held two or three livings, any one of which would be sufficient for the support of the incumbent. If the evil lay in the poor livings, then the remedy was easy. It would be sufficient to prevent all persons from holding more livings than one, except they were very poor livings. A right rev. Prelate had told their Lordships, not long ago, that if the whole of the ecclesiastical revenues were divided amongst the clergy, the average amount would be only 365 l. 18 s. 4d. each. Now he (Lord King), on reference to a Work which he had consulted on the subject, found 600 clergymen who possessed more than one living of 645 l. each on an average. The proper limit would be, that no living should be allowed to be held with another where the amount of salary exceeded the average of what was paid to the whole clergy. What, he would ask, was the object of holding these pluralities? Was it to equalize the wealth of the Church, as it respected the clergy? He would maintain that it was no such thing. That was not the case; and he would contend, that the lay patrons were not the cause of bestowing different benefices on the same person. He could cite many instances where the Church granted those ecclesiastical preferments to individuals already amply provided for. The last that attracted his attention was mentioned in a provincial paper of the 12th of February, from which he found, that the rich living of Wisbeach, which averaged 5,000 l. a year, had been bestowed on the rev. Mr. Bertie, son-in-law to the Bishop of Ely, who was already provided for. He believed that the difficulties were very considerable in correcting the system of pluralities; but he would ask, what attempt had the right rev. Bench made to remedy this acknowledged evil? He believed that in many instances they had caused the duty to be better performed than it used to be; but still he objected
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to the principle. He found in many places, where the Church were the patrons, that the remuneration to the clergy employed was worse than elsewhere. He knew, on some church property held by the See of York, that there were several instances where the clergy received not more than 30 l. a-year. In one case he knew of a valuable College living, worth 2,000 l. a-year, whilst the Curate only received 30 l. and a subscription was made by the parish to raise it to 70 l. per annum. These were instances which clearly showed, that the property remaining in the Church was as much the prey of pluralists as that which was in the hands of laymen. They clearly shewed also, that a great property evidently remained in the Church, and did not come within the principle of abstraction, as had been stated on a former night by the right rev. Prelate. In those cases, he repeated, where the livings belonged to ecclesiastical bodies, the officiating clergy were worse remunerated than they were under other circumstances. The doctrine held by the right rev. Prelate, that every thing not held by the Church was abstracted from it, was a most extensive and comprehensive one. Bishop Horsley, though a High Churchman, held language on this point very different from that which they had heard the other night. His doctrine was perfectly moderate compared with that laid down on the occasion to which he referred, by the right rev. Prelate. The noble Lord concluded by moving for "An Abstract of the number of Resident and Non-resident Incumbents in England and Wales, distinguishing the places; and also distinguishing those Incumbents who held their Benefices from Corporate Bodies or from the Church, and those who held them from Lay Impropriators."
The Bishop of London did not mean to oppose the Motion of the noble Baron. He rose merely for the purpose of saying a few words in reference to the gross misrepresentations which had been made on this subject in some of the public prints, and more particularly in a certain book which had been lately published. When he spoke of lay-impropriations as being a great cause of non-residence, he did not mean to make the remotest allusion to the present lay-impropriators. He spoke only of the original lay-impropriations—the effect of which had been, to make the income of many livings so small that it

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formed a great obstacle to residence. He hoped, therefore, that this would be held to be a complete explanation once for all, and that he should have no occasion to trouble their Lordships further on the subject. There was another point on which he wished to say a few words. It had been said, that the average income of livings was from 350 l. to 360 l. or 365 l. a year. He had investigated the subject minutely since he had adverted to it on a former occasion; and the noble Baron himself would probably be surprised at the result; for, after all that had been said about the enormous property of the Church, he had found that, taking every thing into account, the value of the livings, on an average, did not amount to more than 185 l. a year. He founded his calculation on the Parliamentary Returns of 1811, a period of great agricultural prosperity, at which time the amount of tithes very considerably exceeded the amount collected at the present day. If they took into the account the produce of glebe lands, the augmentation derived from Queen Anne's bounty, and the property belonging to the Deans and Chapters of different Cathedrals, the incomes of Bishops and ecclesiastical Corporations, and divided the sum total among the whole of the clergy, it would not give more than an average of 200 l. a year. The average salary of the ministers of the Scotch Church was 275 l. a-year, and the sum paid to the French clergy was not much below what our own received. He felt it necessary to say thus much after the gross and scandalous misrepresentations which had been published and sent abroad, and from which the noble Lord seemed to have collected his materials for making attacks on the Church. Those publications contained a tissue of such gross misrepresentations, both as to facts and persons, that one would scarcely suppose it possible that they could be sent forth at this period. Among other things it was said, that the minor canons enjoyed 300 l. a year, it would be found, however, that few of them had 100 l. a year, and the most common salary was from 30 l. to 40 l. per annum. The average was not more than 50 l. a-year. With respect to the Archdeacons, who were represented as receiving 600 l. a-year, it ought to be recollected, that the Bishop, on his visitations, always made use of the archdeacon's house, who was thus sub-
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jected to a considerable additional expense; and, generally speaking, the income of the Archdeacons was not sufficient unless they also held some living in addition to their archdeaconries.
The Earl of Rosslynsuggested, that the Motion ought to be for an Address to his Majesty, to order the Returns to be laid on their Lordships' Table. And, after all, he did not know how the returns from the Privy Council could be made, with the distinction required between livings in lay and livings in ecclesiastical patronage. The returns to the Privy Council contained no such distinctions.
Lord Kingsaid, it would be easy to send the order to the Secretaries of the Bishops, and to the Deans and Chapters, who could, without difficulty, make out the account of such livings as were in lay, and such as were in ecclesiastical patronage. As to what the right rev. Prelate had said of his statement, he had not taken his information from the "Black book" to which the, right rev. Prelate apparently alluded, but from a book called "The Revenues of the Church no Burden on the Public—a book which was favourable to the Church Establishment rather than otherwise. He should feel great pain if the average income of livings were so low as 185 l. each, as the right rev. Prelate had stated; and he hoped that the right rev. Prelate had fallen into some mistake in his calculation.
Earl Greydid not see how the returns called for by his noble friend could be procured in the manner which he had proposed. He should have no objection to such returns being laid on their Lordships Table; but he requested his noble friend to consider whether it would not be better to withdraw his Motion for the present, in order to see whether it might not. be afterwards brought forward in a shape more calculated to attain the object. His own belief was, that great inconvenience resulted from this mode of incidentally discussing particular parts of the subject, on occasion of presenting petitions. He did not mean to question his noble friend's sincerity; but he did say, that the course which he had adopted was any thing but favourable to the attainment of the object which his noble friend himself had in view. He was fully persuaded that there existed among the heads of the Church, a most sincere desire to remedy the abuses in the establish-

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ment. The subject as his noble friend knew, was under the consideration of the heads of the Church and he had had some communication concerning it with the very reverend Prelate (the Archbishop of Canterbury) who was most anxious to remedy abuses, and whose views were very moderate and liberal. He himself, he confessed, should have preferred a general commutation of tithes, if that could be accomplished; but he was aware of the serious difficulties which at present stood in the way of that commutation. In the mean time, a measure something short of this which was now under consideration —a measure for a composition for tithes —would be attended with a great deal of good, and might prepare the way for a commutation afterwards. He had seen the noble Prelate's bill for a composition of tithes, and he approved of its principle; and he believed that it would do a great deal of immediate good, and that it would at last lead to a commutation, which would be attended with no less advantage to the Church than to the public. He could speak to the feelings of sincere desire by which the very rev. Prelate was actuated, to remedy the abuses of pluralities as far as possible, and the noble Prelate's views on that point appeared to him to be as just as they were liberal. Besides the subject of tithes and pluralities, there was a third point to which the very rev. Prelate had directed his attention, and that was, the holding of livings in commendam by some of the Bishops. The holding of livings in commendam by Bishops was, in his opinion, to be lamented; but it had been absolutely necessary, from the small-ness of the incomes of some of the heads of the Church, who, without some such expedient, could not maintain the dignity of their situations. On that point, too, some measure was in contemplation, and it was intended to annex the revenues of some ecclesiastical preferments, not connected with the cure of souls, permanently to the emoluments of some of the heads of the Church, so as to render the holding of livings in commendam by the Bishops unnecessary. He was glad that the very rev. Prelate had directed his attention to this point, and he should be most anxious to give him every assistance in his power in the prosecution of this valuable object. He thought himself called upon to say thus much in justice to the heads of the Church, and he was convinced that at no
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time the Bishops, generally speaking, had been more distinguished for a strict and conscientious discharge of their duties, and had been less swayed by a regard for their personal interests than at the present moment. If it should be found that this was a species of praise which did not. apply to some individuals, their case ought to be considered, not as the rule, but as the exception. He would recommend to his noble friend, in the mean time, to abstain from raising discussions from night to night incidentally, on detached parts of the subject, when it was utterly impossible that the whole subject in connection could be sufficiently canvassed.
Lord Farnhamwas extremely glad to hear that a measure was to be brought forward by the very rev. Prelate, on the subject of tithes, though it did not go the length of a commutation, but was a bill for a composition, which, however, it was expected, would ultimately lead to a commutation. He was aware that many obstacles were opposed to the settlement of that important question. He would throw out a suggestion, however, which he thought well worth attending to. Let the lay impropriators of tithes immediately consent to a commutation. It would then be seen how the system would work, and if it worked well, it might be applied in the case of tithes held by the Church; and thus the community might get rid of tithes altogether.
Lord Kingobserved, that his having brought the subject of tithes under their Lordships' consideration had caused him to be assailed from almost all sides, and now his noble friend at the head of the Administration had opened his battery upon him. He had been attacked by the noble Duke (Buckingham) opposite, with his High Church and Tory principles, and the noble Duke had fired his monstrous bomb at his head without mercy. Then a noble Earl (Winchilsea) on the cross-bench, had charged his eighteen-pounder up to the very muzzle, and fired it at him; but it exploded like a pop-gun. Another noble Lord had assailed him on the ground of his religion, and there was such a noise among all his assailants, that he should have been frightened, if he had not known his cause to be so good, that with its aid he was able to right them all. However, he was now disposed to defer to the recommendation of his noble friend. One of

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his reasons for persevering in the course which he had taken was, that he could never understand what the nature of the bill was which the very rev. Prelate intended to propose. He now understood that it was a bill—not for a commutation, but only for a composition. He might go on, night after night, pointing out the mischiefs of tithes to the interests of agriculture, and all the interests of the community, for the subject was a most fertile one. He might show what great advantages France and Scotland had derived from the abolition of the tithe system; the latter, a country inferior in climate to England, but far superior in cultivation. But it appeared to be expected that this measure for a composition would lead to a commutation, and he would take the advice of his noble friend, and abstain from agitating the subject—for a time. The noble and learned Lord (Wynford) had also fallen foul of him, because he had exposed and endeavoured to undo Sir William Scott's job—[Lord Wynford: That is a very objectionable mode of speaking of Lord Stowell's Bill].—Why, really, the noble Lord appeared to be much more touchy on the subject than Lord Stowell himself would be. The bill was one which had really answered the end which Lord Stowell and the clergy had in view. Sir William Scott was himself an emanation from the clergy, and had fought their battles, as he was bound, being their advocate, to do.
His Lordship, withdrew the latter part of his Motion, agreeably to the recommendation of Karl Grey, for the purpose of ascertaining whether it might not be put in a shape better calculated to attain the object in view—the former part agreed to.