Lords Sitting of 11 February 1831

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of SHAFTESPURY, from Gloucester, for a Repeal of the Duty on Coals carried coastwise. By the Earl of RADNOR, from Eastwood, Renfrewshire, for Retrenchment and the extension of the Elective Franchise in Scotland; and from a place in Berkshire, praying for an alteration in the Tithe System. By Lord WHARNTLIFFE, from Bridlington, in the East Riding of the County of York, for a Repeal of the Assessed Taxes. By the Earl of CARNARVON, from Magistrates and Landowners, of the County of Meath, against the granting of large Pensions by the Crown; praying for a Revision of the Pensions already granted; and also for a Repeal of the Assessed Taxes. By Lord FARNHAM, from the Cork-cutters of Dublin, for a Repeal
of the Union. For the Abolition of Slavery, by the same noble Lord, from Halmerend Meeting-house, Audley:—By Earl GOWER, from Glenlough.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
Lord Farnhampresented a Petition from Navan, in the County of Meath, praying for a Tax on Absentee Proprietors, and Reform, but upon a principle in which he could not concur—namely, Vote by Ballot; and the petitioners prayed that the duration of Parliaments should be confined to three years, and that all householders should have the right of voting. He seized the occasion which the presenting of this petition offered him, to say a few words on the subject to which it related. He was not one of those who held the opinion, that the actual distresses of the country arose out of the want of Parliamentary Reform. But he was satisfied that an opinion that such was the case did prevail very generally throughout the country; and he had no objection that the subject should be considered. The noble Earl at the head of the Administration had notified, on the first night of their Lordships' meeting after the Recess, that Ministers had taken up the subject, and had prepared a measure which, as they conceived, would effectually attain the desired object of Reform, without giving any just cause of alarm to those who were anxious to preserve the institutions of this country. He did not at present ask from the noble Earl any information respecting the details of the measure; and it was not with a view to elicit any such information that he now adverted to the subject. But then it was of the greatest importance that their Lordships should have the fullest and most accurate knowledge of the present state of parliamentary representation, and that the most authentic information on that head should be laid before them, before they were called upon to decide on the merits of the new plan. It was to be lamented, that information of this description had not already been produced on their Lordships' Table; but as it was not already there, no time ought to be lost in procuring it. in case the Ministers still entertained the purpose of bringing their plan before the Legislature, at the period which had been already mentioned. He did not know whether, in order to procure the information required, a Committee of Inquiry ought to be appointed, but he was convinced that something ought to be done, to bring the present state of the Re-

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presentation, in the fullest and most authentic manner, before the House without delay. He was aware of only two ways in which the object could be accomplished; the one was, by appointing a Committee of Inquiry —the other was, by procuring the most ample supply of documents relative to the subject, so that when the new measure came before them, they might be enabled in the most effectual way to compare the present state of the Representation, with that which would be established by the plan to be proposed by his Majesty's Ministers, incase it should be adopted by the other branch of the Legislature. It would be, therefore, very gratifying to him, if he could learn from the noble Earl that he intended to lay on their Lordships' Table this desirable information before they were called upon to discuss the new measure, in case it should pass the other House, and come before their Lordships. Unless the most ample information should be laid before them by Ministers, he himself should be disposed to move for the necessary documents. He should be very sorry to be obliged to interfere with the course which the Ministers wished to pursue in reference to this subject, but he did think that it was desirable that their Lordships should have better information than that which was to be collected from newspapers, or from Red Books or Black Books. There was a great variety in the elective qualifications in all places in this country, except in the qualifications of the great body of electors for the counties, as to which last alone their Lordships had already sufficient information. But in many places there was a great variety of qualifications, and there were, perhaps, comparatively few persons who had an accurate knowledge of scot and lot, pot-walloping, and other qualifications of that sort; and it appeared to him that they ought to have a full view of the whole. As he had already said, he should have no objection to have the question considered; but he should certainly be disposed to stop the progress of the new measure, until their Lordships were in possession of the information which he had mentioned.
Earl Greysaid, that nothing could be more proper, or more considerate, than the resolution of the noble Lord, to abstain at present from requiring any information from his Majesty's Ministers, as to the details of their measure on the subject of
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Parliamentary Reform, before it came regularly under the consideration of that Mouse, when the whole of the plan might be fully and fairly discussed. If he (Earl Grey) had thought that any more preliminary information was requisite than that which the Legislature must have acquired in the course of the forty years during which the subject had been under discussion, he should not have failed to call for such information. But although there was a great variety of elective qualifications in different places, he considered that the whole was now sufficiently well known to enable the two Houses of Parliament to compare the present system with that which Ministers meant to propose, and to come to a sound conclusion on their merits; and he was, besides, of opinion, that he could not bring before their Lordships accurately, in the shape of Returns, the description of information which the noble Lord required. But if the noble Lord did think it desirable that such information should be had, and would move for such documents as might appear to him best calculated to elicit that information, he (Earl Grey) should be inclined to give his assent to the motions — provided, however, that they did not interfere with the progress of the measure, which in every view ought to be submitted to the consideration of the Legislature with as little delay as possible. Unless the motion of the noble Lord for documents should occasion an unreasonable delay in the consideration of the subject, he should not be disposed to stand in their way; but it was of the highest importance, that at this moment no delay that could be avoided should take place in bringing under the attention of the Legislature a subject, which, according to the noble Lord's own admission, had made a deep and general impression throughout the empire. It was obviously highly desirable that the matter should be speedily and thoroughly investigated and settled, that men's minds might be set at rest on the subject, and the general agitation composed. As to the other course of proceeding mentioned by the noble Lord, viz. that of an inquiry by a Parliamentary Committee, that was a mode to which he confessed he felt considerable objection. It was a course which he himself had often proposed, and the objection that had always been made to it was, that this would be only setting on foot an inter-

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minable investigation, calculated to loosen opinions, without any great chance of leading to any precise or beneficial result. He thought at the time that there was much in these objections, and it had, therefore, become the wish of Ministers to keep clear of them, and with that view they had thought it best to submit the measure at once to the Legislature, in the shape of a bill. That Bill would be discussed on its merits, without keeping the public mind in suspense on a subject which had made a deep impression on the great mass of the community; so that public confidence might be restored, and an additional impulse given to the causes of public prosperity. It was on these grounds that the Ministers acted, and it was for these reasons that they had adopted this course in bringing the measure under the consideration of the two Houses of Parliament —first, under the consideration of the other House, where it was, in every view, desirable that it should originate; and next, under the consideration of their Lordships, whose sanction he hoped it would receive. The noble Lord had referred to what he had said on the first night after the Recess, and he now repeated that the measure had the unanimous approbation of the ministers, and the sanction of him, without whose approbation they, as Ministers of the Crown, could not have brought it forward. And he did entertain a sanguine hope, that the measure would be found effectual for its purpose, and, at the same time, restrained within such moderate bounds, as to be susceptible of being carried into execution without danger to the institutions of the State. The noble Lord himself had the temper and good sense not to call for any information as to particulars at present; and such information, if it had been called for, he should not have been disposed to give; and neither on this, nor any future occasion, would he say more on the subject, until the bill should come under discussion in its regular progress through Parliament. He repeated, that if the noble Lord thought proper to move for documents, if the motions should not produce undue delay, and interfere with the progress of the measure in contemplation, he would lay no difficulty in the way of the noble Lord.