Lords Sitting of 23 August 1831

MINUTES.
Bills. Received the Royal Assent, the Exchequer-bills (5,000,000 l); the Lord-lieutenants of Counties (Ireland), and thirty-seven private Bills. The LORD CHANCELLOR, the Archbishop of CANTERBURY, and the Marquis of LANSDOWN, were the King's Commissioners;—Read a second time. The Subletting Act Amendment (Ireland), Committed; the Tithes on Barren Land; the Poor Relief brought in by the Marquis of WESTMEATH, and read a first time, for the regulation of the Baking Trade (Ireland).
Petitions presented. By the Earl of ESSEX, from the Merchants and Inhabitants of Falmouth, for a revision of the Penal Code. By Lord WHARNCLIFFE, from the Spinners of Halifax, for the Establishment of some Regulations in the mode of employing Children in Manufactories.

LUNATICS.
Lord Kenyon Lord Kenyon moved, that the House resolve itself into a Committee on the Lunatics' Bill. This Bill had been under the consideration of a Committee up-stairs, where several Amendments upon the old Act had been suggested. As the gentlemen composing the late Commission, to which the management of the lunatics had been confided, and which had performed its duties in a most efficient manner, could not longer continue in that Commission, and at the same time properly discharge the other duties of their situation, particularly the very able Chairman, both of a public and private nature, the Committee proposed to introduce into the Commission certain individuals, whose avocations would not call them from the discharge of the duties of that office. It was found expedient, also, to make some change in the constitution of the Commission. Originally, the Commission was placed under the control of the Secretary of State for the Home Department; and although the duty had been as well done by the Secretary as it could be done by a person in that situation, it had been thought, for obvious reasons, that the control should be vested in the Lord Chancellor. There was another alteration which it was very material for the public to know, and that was, that the relations of the persons confined were not, by the present Bill, to be bound to visit them, as it was thought better that should be left to their own judgment and benevolent feelings, whether to visit them or not. There might be cases in which, for the sake of the patient himself, his relations should not visit him. Another alteration, of some public importance, was, that it was not now to be imperative that the names of those who visited the patients should be

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mentioned or taken down. It had been also thought advisable, that some medical men of high character should be members of the Committee. The noble Lord added, that in order to secure a proper attention on the part of those whose attention was most material, some remuneration should be allowed them.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee on the Bill.
The Marquis of Lansdown was ready to admit, that the suggestions of the noble Baron had great force, yet the admission of medical men upon Commissions of Lunacy was liable to many objections.
The Duke of Cumberlandsaid, that if any provision of the nature hinted at by the noble Marquis was made, it would exclude Surgeons of the Army, who had experience in all sorts of disorders, and who were well acquainted with the proper treatment of mental maladies.
The Lord Chancellorthought, that the Bill effected a desirable improvement in bringing matters of lunacy more immediately than they were by the old law, under the superintendence of the Great Seal. He thought it most proper, that a near connection should subsist between the Lord Chancellor for the time and the Commissioners of Lunacy. He approved of many of the appointments in the Bill, as he conceived, that professional men were persons to whom matters of so confidential a nature as the administration of lunacy, might be more properly intrusted than to any other individuals. When he recollected how anxiously every family concealed the misfortune of a lunatic being in the family, and how important it was to the lunatic, in case of his recovery, that no indiscreet publicity had been given to his case, he felt how useful it would be to have the Committees composed of professional men, whose discretion and secresy might be fully depended on. He also approved of the suggestion of the illustrious Duke with regard to the eligibility of Military Surgeons, as he considered that many of them were persons of great knowledge and experience, and well suited in every respect to discharge important duties. He was content with this Bill, since Parliament had thought proper to legislate at all on the subject, though he was perhaps, of opinion that the safest way was to leave all those unhappy cases to the natural guardianship of the parties interested. As, however, both Houses of the Legislature
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agreed that some control should be exerted, he approved of the present Bill, which brought that superintendence immediately under the House and the Great Seal.
The Bill went through the Committee, and the House resumed.

EMPLOYMENT OF THE POOR.
Lord Kenyonproposed the second reading of a Bill, which had for its object the enabling parishes to provide employment for the labourers in agriculture. He hoped the House would allow the Bill to be read a second time, and to go to a Committee, where every explanation might be given of the different clauses.
The Duke of Richmondhad no objection to allow the Bill to go to a Committee, but he wished to guard himself against the supposition that he approved of the whole Bill, as he considered there were objectionable clauses in it, particularly those which related to forming new parishes.
The Earl of Orfordwould not oppose the Bill, though he thought there were many obstacles to its final accomplishment. One part of it fixed a money rate of tithes, a principle which the House had decided against during the present Session.
Bill read a second time, and referred to a Committee up-stairs.

OVERSEERS OF THE POOR.
Lord Teynham Lord Teynham moved the second reading of the Overseers of the Poor Bill. It was positively necessary that some alteration should be made in these laws. There had been many attempts to improve the Poor-laws established by the Act of Elizabeth, many of which were cruel, others were absurd, and all were ineffective, and had totally failed. He therefore considered some further measures necessary, and he proposed, after the Bill was read a second time, to refer it to a Committee.
The Duke of Richmondobjected to the Bill for several reasons. He objected to the clause by which one Overseer was to be appointed for six months, and the other for the succeeding part of the year, and by which the one was to be bound to give friendly advice to the other. With regard to the accounts of Overseers, there was a Bill in progress in the other House, which effectually met the object which the noble Lord had in view; therefore, the clause was unnecessary in this Bill. He observed that the Bill provided, that all disputes between parishes respecting settle-

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ments, were to be decided by arbitration, and that lawyers and attornies were excluded from acting as arbitrators. He objected to this, as he thought it was unwise to exclude the only persons who could be supposed to be acquainted with all the legal difficulties attending a question of settlement. He also objected to the clause interdicting relief to the poor being given in flour or bread, because he thought, that when meal or bread was given, there was a probability that the pauper's family would receive the benefit of them, whereas, if money alone were paid, it was possible that the pauper would spend it at the alehouse, instead of bringing it home to his wife and children. He further could not consent to the clause by which all persons who received parish relief were interdicted from the power of creating a debt, as he thought it would be most unfair to deprive a man, because he was poor, of his character as a member of society. The same fault might also be found with the clause of exemption, wherein he observed officers, of the Army and Navy were not exempted from serving as Overseers, though other professional persons were. This he conceived to be very hard, and he did not know how the noble Lord would like to see any military friend of his compelled to act as an Overseer of the poor. Altogether, the Bill was hastily drawn up, and he recommended the noble Lord to withdraw it for further consideration.
Lord Teynhamsaid, his only object was, to accomplish a certain good; but, as the House did not appear to approve of the Bill, he would withdraw it.

FRAUDULENT DEBTORS' BILL.
Lord Wynford Lord Wynford moved the third reading of the Fraudulent Debtors' Bill.
Lord Plunkett Lord Plunkett moved, as an Amendment, that the Bill be read a third time this day six months. He need not go into any arguments on the subject, as the noble and learned Lord had not answered the arguments which he (Lord Plunkett) had, on a former occasion, brought forward against the Bill. The noble and learned Lord had contented himself, according to the report of some newspaper, with observing that the weakness of his (Lord Plunkett's) opposition confirmed him in the opinion that the measure was good.
Lord Wynfordreplied, that he had no opportunity of answering the noble and learned Lord on the occasion alluded to,
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as the noble and learned Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench had requested that the third reading should be postponed, to give him an opportunity of examining and considering the Bill, which that noble and learned Lord had had no previous opportunity of doing, on account of his absence on the circuit. He hoped, therefore, that their Lordships would allow him to say a few words, for he did not mean to enter again at length into the argument. The noble and learned Chief Justice did not attend, and the fair inference was, that he was convinced that the measure was a good one. It was some time since he had heard the objections of the noble and learned Lord, and did not recollect, that he took any prominent exception to the Bill, except that it extended the Bankruptcy-law. But it was not a general extension of that law. It was merely its extension to a class of persons of a certain description; and the question which their Lordships had to decide was, whether the Bankrupt-law, should not be extended to cases, where persons had no other means of following out the effects of judgments recovered. In that respect the law of this country was in a worse state than in any other civilized nation on the globe. In this country the effect of judgments recovered could not in many cases of common occurrence be obtained, and there was no way to remedy the defect except by the extension of the principle of the Bankrupt-laws to such cases. It was impossible that the Bill should do any mischief. It did not extend the Bankrupt-law generally. It did not extend the principle of imprisonment for debt, but the contrary; for it went to compel prisoners who had property, to give up that property to pay their debts, and thereby to procure their discharge from prison. The Bill was in their Lordships' hands, and in whatever manner they thought proper to deal with it, he felt satisfied in having done his duty. If this evil was left unredressed, when so unobjectionable a measure for its removal was submitted to Parliament, he would never again boast of the laws of England. He might admit, that causes were well tried, and just judgments given, but to many of those judgments there were no means of giving effect. It was manifest that, in this particular, the industrious wanted protection. His noble and learned friend had said, on a former occasion, that persons, merely for going abroad for their amuse-

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ment, or for their health, might by this Bill be made bankrupts. No such thing; but only if, after having gone abroad, they continued abroad in order to defeat the just claims of their creditors. It was only putting them in the situation of all merchants, even the most honourable; and then it was to apply only to persons going abroad with a knowledge of the existence of this law, and remaining abroad—not for health or amusement—but to defeat the just claims of their creditors—the fact that such was the purpose of their remaining abroad, being to be found by the verdict of a Jury before the law could have any application. He left the Bill with their Lordships.
The question was put, that the word "now" stand part of the question.—Motion negatived without a division.

THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
The Lord Chancellor, adverting to the order of the day for the further consideration of the report of the Bankruptcy Court Bill, which stood for Friday next, observed, that when he had fixed it for that day, he had calculated that by the evenings' sittings he should have been able to have got through the business of his court by that time, but he found that he had miscalculated as to its amount. He would beg leave, therefore, to postpone the Bill till Friday week. He had to apologize to their Lordships for his absence from their sittings, in consequence of the evening sittings in his court, but those sittings, he hoped their Lordships would admit, were for a purpose of great public convenience. He had a confident hope, that in another week he should have got through the whole of the business in his court. It might be convenient to their Lordships and to the public, to know, that after the business was despatched in his own court, he would then attend in the House, from day to day, until he had disposed of the arrears of appeals, and he hoped that in a fortnight he should be able to get through them all. Their Lordships then would have no appeals before them, except such as had been entered within the last three months; but if any of these should be ripe for decision when he had disposed of the others, he would be happy to give his assistance in disposing of those also, so that by the end of the Session—if it should ever have an end—the whole of the appeals would, he hoped, be disposed of.
The Earl of Eldonhad no doubt that his noble and learned friend was most usefully employing his time in his court, but at the same time he must state, that according to the standing orders of their Lordships' House, the paramount duty of the Lord Chancellor was, to be in his place in that House during their Lordships' sittings, and not to be employed elsewhere; and there were many precedents where permission to attend elsewhere during the sittings of that House, was refused. He had no doubt, whatever, that his noble and learned friend was most usefully employed elsewhere, but he had no power to dispense with the standing orders, which required his attendance during the sittings here. With respect to the Bankruptcy Court Bill, he hoped that his noble and learned friend would consent to postpone it till some period after the time of adjournment for the Coronation. He made this request as a matter of personal convenience to himself, for in waiting for this Bill he was unable to take that change of air which had been declared necessary for his health, but, at the same time, he was ready to attend on any day which his noble friend might fix for bringing on the Bill.
The Lord Chancellorhoped his noble and learned friend would do him the justice to believe, that no man was more ready than he was to adopt any arrangement which might tend to his noble friend's personal convenience. He would, therefore, put off the Bill to Friday fortnight, or to any other day which might be more convenient to his noble and learned friend. His noble friend had mentioned till after the adjournment for the Coronation, but he (the Lord Chancellor) understood that there would be no Motion for an adjournment, beyond an adjournment over the day of the Coronation itself. As to what had been said by his noble and learned friend, of the attendance of the Lord Chancellor during the sittings of the House, he fully admitted that such attendance was a paramount duty, and therefore he had mentioned the urgency of the case which required his attendance elsewhere, in order that their Lordships might dispense with the standing order which required his attendance. He repeated, however, his confident hope, that the business of his court would detain him only a few days more, and he should then be wholly at their Lordships' disposal.